Oh I haven't forgotten. Every time I build a fleet I salivate at the other two ISD options, just to realize I can't have them yet... Being able to NOT pay for the flexibility that a higher squadron value provides is something I desperately want.

Don’t worry, they’ll be out “soon.”

5 hours ago, eliteone said:

Rebels have IMO the best method for delivering slicer tools in Quantum Storm. Move, Slice, Move again.

That trick is so sweet and so underappreciated. I use it pretty much whenever I can set it up.

The catch, of course, is that it can be pretty tough to get a second slicer off on the same target if you do this, which is often what you would prefer to be doing.

The apotheosis of this tactic is to get QS set up in front of and heading away from your target, then match speed. Target moves up close, QS moves to the edge of medium, slices, and scootches into long; rinse, repeat. I did that to two separate opponents at Worlds last year and it worked beautifully, but it's one of those things that your opponent kind of has to give you the opportunity to do. Also very good in some matchups as your Hyperspace Assault ship.

Good topic. I've long been in the light squad camp, though I've played lots of different fleet types and archetypes. I'm pleased to see many of good friends from the no/light squads working through their present variants.

I've never really been convinced of the efficacy of no squads, since there will always be that one fleet that matches up extremely well. One gives up an enormous amount of flexibility to an opponent in going no squads, and it is, in my opinion, difficult to recover that flexibility in terms of what additional ships you add through that.

Here's what I've got in short form, basically from the Rebel side of things, since that is what I play.

1. Tycho/Shara---this is the lightest two squads I've seen, but I've not fielded it in a while nor run it in a long time. This is your strongest two squad speed bumps, but it runs into problems if the opponent has Intel and can ignore them. Also, my experience with Sloan is that the heavy dice values that Sloan incentivizes reduces Tycho to a really expensive A-wing. You can go this route, but you really have to be comfortable with your ships against the opponent's list.

2. Shara/3 A-wings---In the post Sloan meta, this is what I switched to. Previously, I had Tycho/Shara/2 A-wings, but I think the points are well saved. Now, you add Toryn on a Bright Hope Transport and you pick up all kinds of wonderful damage from the A-wings. Since you're playing defense, there's no reason why you should be going after their squads unless you really need to make the attack of opportunity. So that means you should always get a little damage off of counter rolls, and then you get to attack them back in flak range from your ships. I've killed 100+ points of squads with these squadrons + FLak on multiple occasions. The counters and main attacks need to do just enough that the flak either scares them off or finishes them off in its entirety. But this is hard to talk about in the abstract, you really have to see it on the board and experiment. It isn't the squads by themselves that are doing it, is the combination of squads plus flak, plus Toryn.

Toryn + blue AS is pretty critical. I think the Combat Retrofits is one of the most overlooked units, especially with Toryn. That little chip damage against ships if needed, and the massive extended range that blue AS offers over black, plus the hit increase to the blues from Toryn can really help create overlapping fields of flak fire. You don't have to go overboard with it.

Cluster Bombers are also pretty seriously overlooked. Their reputation stems largely from people thinking almost exclusively in terms of MC80 or ISD retrofits and looking at ECM, AP, or RBD. Point taken. These aren't the only defensive retrofits in the game, and there are several key units that often have free defensive retrofits (CR90, MC30, Arquittens). These are also the units that tend to attract a lot of squad attention, CR90s especially there. Although CB might not save them in their entirety, they can seriously bludgeon out an enemy squadron force. Since CB damage is unbraceable and unscatterable, it benefits the most from striking expensive squads, some of which might be beneficial for future rounds of combat. The game prioritizes damage that removes targets from the game, and in combination with CB damage, you only need a couple of reliable flak shorts and/or squadron shots to knock down that squad. I ran CB on Admonition during the Store Championship season, I think to decent effect. They are a pretty tough upgrade to build around, but I think there are a handful of list archetypes out there that could actually benefit from them as part of a squadron answer. I think the general trend of what you want is: 1. small ships that ordinarily wouldn't take a defensive retrofit 2. Flak that can assist in damage on squads. 3. A light squadron screen that can move and hunt damage units or which can inflict damage upon units to the point that CB would be fatal.

26 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Cluster Bombers are also pretty seriously overlooked. Their reputation stems largely from people thinking almost exclusively in terms of MC80 or ISD retrofits and looking at ECM, AP, or RBD. Point taken. These aren't the only defensive retrofits in the game, and there are several key units that often have free defensive retrofits (CR90, MC30, Arquittens). These are also the units that tend to attract a lot of squad attention, CR90s especially there. Although CB might not save them in their entirety, they can seriously bludgeon out an enemy squadron force. Since CB damage is unbraceable and unscatterable, it benefits the most from striking expensive squads, some of which might be beneficial for future rounds of combat.

I run into the same problem with Cluster Bombs as I do with QLT; Whenever I equip them to a ship or two, I sit back and go "Gee, they sure will regret choosing to attack that specific ship." If you give them all cluster bombs (assuming you picked mainly defensive retrofit ships), you've committed 15-20 points to a specialized defense. If they don't kill all of your CB-equipped ships, your 5 points did almost nothing (you could argue it deterred them, but they'll probably still hit what they most want to hit if it's worth putting a 5 point DR on.) I'd almost always rather have my fighter screen boosted by 15-20 points (which also boosts deployment.) Then there's Ackbar, MSU, Dual ISD and the like, who couldn't care less about cluster bombs. At least Valen and Ciena / Tycho and Shara will earn you points by killing their screen, or by being a persistent annoyance. If nothing else, RBD will always do something unless you took no hull damage (yay!) or went from full to zero hull in a single round (awww.)

I decided to revisit my list one last time. That last list had some core mechanics included but had poor activation numbers. This list adds 2 Slicer Tool Gozanti's, upgrades the VSDI to a VSDII, and uses 2 Arquitens Command Cruisers with DTT for better flak. This list also increases the first player bid from 9 points to 12.

Squad killers 2
Author: Thrindal

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 388/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Warlord ( 8 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ruthless Strategists ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 135 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 64 total ship cost

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59 points)
- Hondo Ohnaka ( 2 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 66 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)
= 30 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Suppressor ( 4 points)
- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)
= 34 total ship cost

1 Bossk ( 23 points)
3 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 36 points)

I think I will put this one into a Vassal list and give it a go. If anyone wants to bring a heavy squad list to give it a try I would like to see if this can be effective. I think it could be effective against squads but does it have enough to deal with the ships? The VSD should be able to take out Floatillas with the guarenteed accuracies on blue dice but could it take out an ISD or a MC80H tank? Not so sure.

One last thought on the squads I chose, they are meant to be sacrificial but if any of them survive they all can be effective vs. ships. That isn't their intent but a possitive added benefit should they not have much work to do.

Pending the available objectives I would try and fly this in a flying "V" formation with the Victory in the center and the squads and Arquitens trying to funnel squads towards the VSD while the Slicer Tool Gozanti's try to mess with my opponents plans. Jerjerod should help to be able to funnel squads and possition the VSD for a first activation flak storm, Bossk will stay in the protective bubble of the TIE Advanced for as long as possible working down unique squads.

13 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I run into the same problem with Cluster Bombs as I do with QLT; Whenever I equip them to a ship or two, I sit back and go "Gee, they sure will regret choosing to attack that specific ship." If you give them all cluster bombs (assuming you picked mainly defensive retrofit ships), you've committed 15-20 points to a specialized defense. Yes, Squadrons will hate fighting those ships, but a smart foe will hit with his cheapest generics first, followed by the stuff that matters most. I'd almost always rather have my fighter screen boosted by 15-20 points (which also boosts deployment.) Then there's Ackbar, MSU, Dual ISD and the like, who couldn't care less about cluster bombs. At least Valen and Ciena / Tycho and Shara will earn you points by killing their screen, or by being a persistent annoyance.

If you've committed 15-20 points to specialized defense, you've also committed 160 bucks to acquiring Cluster Bombs, which may be the bigger problem.

I'm also not sure 15-20 points is exactly what one wants in the end. That seems to be the route of trying to get CB to do almost all the work by covering everything with them. The one time that I've run them, the MC30 was the only ship that had a defensive retrofit. And if you've already got flak, Toryn, and A-wings, and you're strapped for points, the 5 points you add actually does turn out cost-effective, since you bump into two problems: you need 2 squads for deployment and no squad costs 5 points. They are more of an "around the edge" upgrade with respect to the rest of your plan. And also, if that's a ship you can reliably keep alive, they also become 5 points in squadrons that your opponent cannot bag simply by winning the squadron game.

On Ackbar, MSU, and Dual ISD not caring about CB, we can come up with a list for nearly every upgrade in the game that simply doesn't care about that upgrade. I'd agree that 15-20 points starts looking iffy, but for 5 or 10 points, part of building well is recognizing that some build out there simply won't care about some upgrade that you have. The trick in building is to find ways to keep that number down to a minimum. And it isn't CB OR Valen/Ciena/Tycho/Shara, it is CB AND Valen/Ciena/Tycho/Shara/something else. The OR question is precisely where people go wrong in thinking about CB.

27 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I run into the same problem with Cluster Bombs as I do with QLT; Whenever I equip them to a ship or two, I sit back and go "Gee, they sure will regret choosing to attack that specific ship." If you give them all cluster bombs (assuming you picked mainly defensive retrofit ships), you've committed 15-20 points to a specialized defense.

This is actually true, however the way to mitigate it is to add that extra protection to your flagship/ship you are least prepared to lose - this way you're changing the attack target priority just by including the card (At least that's what i do in my QLT builds). The main problem with Cluster Bombs (in my mind) is that it's using defence retrofit slot and therefore is hard to justify on ships without dual def retrofits (i.e. Rebel MC80s)

Just now, Vergilius said:

I'm also not sure 15-20 points is exactly what one wants in the end. That seems to be the route of trying to get CB to do almost all the work by covering everything with them. The one time that I've run them, the MC30 was the only ship that had a defensive retrofit. And if you've already got flak, Toryn, and A-wings, and you're strapped for points, the 5 points you add actually does turn out cost-effective, since you bump into two problems: you need 2 squads for deployment and no squad costs 5 points. They are more of an "around the edge" upgrade with respect to the rest of your plan. And also, if that's a ship you can reliably keep alive, they also become 5 points in squadrons that your opponent cannot bag simply by winning the squadron game.

These are good points. I've always been a little nervous with putting CB on one ship, but I now think I need to do some further testing. I still feel like RBD might edge out due to its flexibility, but an MC30 makes a lot of sense due to low hull value.

Just now, Vergilius said:

If you've committed 15-20 points to specialized defense, you've also committed 160 bucks to acquiring Cluster Bombs, which may be the bigger problem.

That is definitely the real problem

Just now, PT106 said:

This is actually true, however the way to mitigate it is to add that extra protection to your flagship/ship you are least prepared to lose - this way you're changing the attack target priority just by including the card (At least that's what i do in my QLT builds). The main problem with Cluster Bombs (in my mind) is that it's using defence retrofit slot and therefore is hard to justify on ships without dual def retrofits (i.e. Rebel MC80s)

I guess my problems stem from the fact I'm mainly an Imperial player, so I have fewer DRs to choose from and ISDs have amazing flak already that's usually leading shots boosted. As I understand it, Cluster Bombs works best vs aces, so as an Imperial I'd rather add Kallus and hit almost as hard as a TIE Defender (2 blue + 1 black.) I kind of have to try it out now, but it'll definitely be on an HMC80/MC30 for the reasons you mentioned.

12 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

If you've committed 15-20 points to specialized defense, you've also committed 160 bucks to acquiring Cluster Bombs, which may be the bigger problem.

Anecdotal Evidence (or Armada Players Anonymous): I started playing early wave 2 and soon bought a second MC80 because I wanted to try 3 ISD build with multiple cluster bombs. I ended up being disappointed with them pretty soon afterwards.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I guess my problems stem from the fact I'm mainly an Imperial player, so I have fewer DRs to choose from and ISDs have amazing flak already that's usually leading shots boosted. As I understand it, Cluster Bombs works best vs aces, so as an Imperial I'd rather add Kallus and hit almost as hard as a TIE Defender (2 blue + 1 black.) I kind of have to try it out now, but it'll definitely be on an HMC80/MC30 for the reasons you mentioned.

For Imperials you have to try QLT instead - as it synergizes with Kallus (and Warlord/H9 shenanigans as well) and together with flak squadrons can start to pop as early as second round of shooting.

Just now, PT106 said:

For Imperials you have to try QLT instead - as it synergizes with Kallus (and Warlord/H9 shenanigans as well) and together with flak squadrons can start to pop as early as second round of shooting.

I'm waiting for the Kuat Refit so I can add Flechette Torpedoes to the mix and watch squadrons avoid it like the plague.

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I'm waiting for the Kuat Refit so I can add Flechette Torpedoes to the mix and watch squadrons avoid it like the plague.

To be fair, I'm not convinced that flechette would be a right call for that ship, I personally prefer external racks. I may end up being wrong though.

7 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I guess my problems stem from the fact I'm mainly an Imperial player, so I have fewer DRs to choose from....

The only Imperial ship I can think of is the Arquittens. Some kind of MSU swarm with long range Arquittens fire that otherwise just needs CB to help them stay clear of squads, plus your own light squadron screen that can finish/bludgeon out a squadron attack. So you've basically got one build on the Imperial side in which they work.

Just now, PT106 said:

To be fair, I'm not convinced that flechette would be a right call for that ship, I personally prefer external racks. I may end up being wrong though.

I'll admit it might not be the optimal use, but ISD-Is seem to do fine without an ordnance slot period...

Oh well... guess I'll have to try both!

Yes, I'd go External Racks on the Kuat. ER are flexible, which means you spend them against squads if needed, but can pick your arc on which they'll work best otherwise. Presumably with its dice load out, you are also looking to double arc, so taking ordinance experts is nice.

Just now, Vergilius said:

Yes, I'd go External Racks on the Kuat. ER are flexible, which means you spend them against squads if needed, but can pick your arc on which they'll work best otherwise. Presumably with its dice load out, you are also looking to double arc, so taking ordinance experts is nice.

I'd have to say LS practically comes stapled to the ship. Blue dice in every arc and flak.

And I 100% agree External Racks wins first for the ordnance slot. If I recall correctly, the average damage from a boosted front arc shot is 9.25 with rerolls. That's obscene, and I love it.

4 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Yes, I'd go External Racks on the Kuat. ER are flexible, which means you spend them against squads if needed, but can pick your arc on which they'll work best otherwise. Presumably with its dice load out, you are also looking to double arc, so taking ordinance experts is nice.

Yes, this is exactly what I have in mind (as well as Ion Turbines). And incidentally - Kallus + QLT + Racks + OE = Imperial Cluster Bomb, as it can counter one unique squad with 1 blue and 3 rerollable blacks.

Just now, PT106 said:

Yes, this is exactly what I have in mind (as well as Ion Turbines). And incidentally - Kallus + QLT + Racks + OE = Imperial Cluster Bomb, as it can counter one unique squad with 1 blue and 3 rerollable blacks.

Remember they can scatter, though.

Just now, The Jabbawookie said:

Remember they can scatter, though.

Unless accuracied or Avengered (and spending racks while knowing that there are no accuracies in a roll is usually not a best decision).

Cluster bombs for me have a whole new life because of marek-jendon. Maybe he isnt as ubiquitous elsewhere. Rather than putting them on big ships which as has been pointed out get more benefit from ecm or blast doors, i put them on small ships especially mc30s. I ran a variant of one of Ginkapos fleets with two mc30 torps both with clusters. If marek attacks them he should take 3 damage (the other night i did 4) which is usually enough to make him either bugger off or get killed by flak and even light squadron cover.

In the old days of rhymerball clusters had very limited value but matekjendon is nowadays often the only big bombing threat so if you can contain or kill him you can get on with life winning the proper battle.

You can go balls to the walls with zero squads and rush down the carriers. High risk high reward, but I placed 1st at a store tournament once doing that.

13 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

The catch, of course, is that it can be pretty tough to get a second slicer off on the same target if you do this, which is often what you would prefer to be doing.

Did I miss something with Slicer Tools? Why would you prefer to slice the same target twice. Doing so would result in you changing the dial which you set yourself with the first slice, right? Or am I missing something?

22 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Did I miss something with Slicer Tools? Why would you prefer to slice the same target twice. Doing so would result in you changing the dial which you set yourself with the first slice, right? Or am I missing something?

I can think of one way it would be useful. If you can slice the same ship before it activates and then after it activates you've essentially neutered it for two rounds. Two rounds of not activating squadrons will cost most carrier fleets the game.