I know we've had endless discussions about how effective squadrons *should be* in this game, being based in the Star Wars universe and all. This isn't that kind of post.

Personally, I don't find the squadron game fun. This game is all about capital ships to me, and I find great enjoyment from hitting that perfect maneuver and lining up a great shot. To that end, I've been working a lot lately on trying to find those fleets that can beat down heavy bombing lists (or Sloane lists for that matter) with as little squadron support as possible. I'm encouraging my opponents to play their crazy squadron fleets so I can keep working on it... and I'm having depressingly little success.

I've noticed a fair bit of talk of people performing well running little or no squadrons... or perhaps I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses and I'm seeing things that aren't actually being said. Regardless, I'm hoping to extract some tips or advice. I'm not exactly interested in the "just kill their carrier before they can kill you" advice... everybody has heard that, it's not that easy. Especially so against Riekann.

This is my favorite game, but I'm growing frustrated feeling I have to invest heavily in the squadron aspect. Probably my biggest disappointment with the next wave delay, as I (and many others, I believe) expect there to be some anti-squadron tech for ships coming down the line? I want that tech...

Try playing an Ackbar conga line consisting of 4x Assault Frigate Mark II A with Gunnery Teams. A friend of mine did so recently and it proved very capable of taking down squadrons :b

What have you tried playing so far? I'd like to take a closer look at your lists and perhaps take the discussion from there.

I had a lot of succes with squadronless Cracken lists, mix of 0-2 mc30, trc corvettes, and transports. Its not hard to outrun speed 3 or slower squads, but a-Wings, yt-s, or relay balls might hurt you.

You need to have a way to mitigate their ability to do damage. Squadrons have a couple weaknesses there. If you are playing Imps Flechette Raiders can lay down walls of fire and prevent squadrons from having entire turns. This goes well with dedicated anti-squad fire from the fleet. If you're a Rebel using anything other than a Liberty, use Toryn. This will require patience.

The second thing I find that works is having first player. Most squadron builds will usually be able set up two rounds of concentrated fire if you give them first player. Luckily most can't or won't seriously bid. It's also much more difficult to set up a fork with squads that say with a GT ISD.

The last thing that's effective is preventing squad commands. The only sure fire way to do that is to blow the carrier(s) out of space, but there is an alternative initially. Double Slicers. They're cheap, they add ASq, and they cause pure havoc. This does NOT absolve you of the need to crack the carriers, but it can buy a lot of time and pain for the enemy. Hope this helps.

It is doable and there are several different approaches.

I'm personally favoring "outlive them" approach that concentrates on winning damage race against squadrons anddestroying them or forcing them to disengage before they can kill enough of your ships (as I'm mostly playing Imperial I'm going to use Imperial fleets as an example).

The main idea of the approach is to mitigate squadron threat by raw hull. Empire is the best in this regard as it allows for 17HP ships (Motti ISD + RBD) that would take at least 26 hits (and usually more than that) to destroy. If those ships are coupled with good AS flak, squadrons would have to retreat or be destroyed before achieving their goal. In my experience, the approach would require at least 3 double-flak ships and at least 3 ships with at least 1 blue flak die. Key upgrades are: Agent Kallus, QLT (these should go on ISD to maximize their usefulness), Gunnery team (to avoid blind spots for flak), Ordnance Experts on ships with black flak dice/Leading Shots on ships with blue flak dice, RBD, Raider 1 (the ship that can't be ignored by squadrons), GSD2 (double blue flak).

If you're willing to go almost squadronless, it gives some reprieve as the squadrons can delay the bombing run for a round or two (which may be all that you need)

I played a squadronless Imperial fleet that was designed around this idea at Nova and ended up in Top-16 while farming all (or almost all - excluding some VCX) squadrons from two fleets.

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 178 total ship cost

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 47 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Suppressor ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
= 121 total ship cost

Card view link

Think of a carrier as a ship rather than a ship with squads. Take all the dice from the squads and add it to the ships dice pool. What you get is a few ships with very strong activations that has a very long and flexible reach. Now you need to create a list that is effective at mitigating that dice pool, as well as efficiently destroying ships. This can be done in several ways.

Mothma is one of the best anti-squad commanders in the game. It's a soft counter to any rerolls, allowing you to reduce damage.

Flechette Torps will reduce the amount of dice coming your way.

Toryn with AA shots will kill squads fairly quickly.

Pushing flots into the fighter ball can distract your opponent, and give you black AA attacks.

Objectives are another great choice. Extra obstacles can obstruct squad attacks or force carriers into awkward movements. Deployment advantage means you can place your ships in a way that forces your opponent to adjust their squads, potentially buying you extra time.

Sacrificing ships. Raiders are scary to squads so your opponent will focus on them. Bring a Raider that gets thrown into the grinder. You lose 44 points but trade up when you kill the carrier.

Always take the attack at a flotilla. Chances are you can kill it with 6 dice, and you reduce and activation and carrier.

Play a long range fleet. Ackbar, Vics, and CR90s like to stay at a distance. Your opponent will have to move in to attack you.

GT lets you attack ships and squads.

Out activating your opponent is what I do. 6 ships means I can take first or second and force my opponent to activate their ships before me, reducing the amount of dicing coming at me. Since my ships are built to kill other ships, when I activate, I have a high chance of crippling or killing their ships. MC30s, Raiders, Glads, and DC+GT+LS Vics are great at this. I think all successful tournament winning no squad lists have had 6-7 ships. 7 ship no squads took 5th at Worlds during the Reign of Rieekan. So you can do it.

Couple extra notes. FT Raiders really need first player to not go bang before ever firing, and really do best with light squad cover to eat a couple critical shots.

The other thing that's really useful, as I'm sure you've already discovered, is eye-watering speed. Most truly good squadron heavy builds are a bit of a flying circus, and when you add trying to chase a fast fleet to the chaos of a Slicer attack things get entertaining fast. It's not a complete solution, but I don't think you can get much farther just on building.

2 hours ago, IronNerd said:

I know we've had endless discussions about how effective squadrons *should be* in this game, being based in the Star Wars universe and all. This isn't that kind of post.

Personally, I don't find the squadron game fun. This game is all about capital ships to me, and I find great enjoyment from hitting that perfect maneuver and lining up a great shot. To that end, I've been working a lot lately on trying to find those fleets that can beat down heavy bombing lists (or Sloane lists for that matter) with as little squadron support as possible. I'm encouraging my opponents to play their crazy squadron fleets so I can keep working on it... and I'm having depressingly little success.

I've noticed a fair bit of talk of people performing well running little or no squadrons... or perhaps I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses and I'm seeing things that aren't actually being said. Regardless, I'm hoping to extract some tips or advice. I'm not exactly interested in the "just kill their carrier before they can kill you" advice... everybody has heard that, it's not that easy. Especially so against Riekann.

This is my favorite game, but I'm growing frustrated feeling I have to invest heavily in the squadron aspect. Probably my biggest disappointment with the next wave delay, as I (and many others, I believe) expect there to be some anti-squadron tech for ships coming down the line? I want that tech...

If you're looking to fight off squadron heavy fleets (presuming between 100-134 points invested) I wouldn't bank on going completely squadronless.

I don't particularly enjoy the squadron game myself (It's a part of the reason I invented the Squadron Command Plates ), but I have come to understand they they are a fairly necessary aspect of the game. Even if you just work out a small 2-4 man AA it can compliment your fleet and protect your ships. Little combos like Shara+Tycho and a couple A-wings can work wonders when used well. Or if imperials are your jam, the Wambo Jambo (Howl,Mauler,Dengar,Scoontir) is a fierce combo that'll eat up squads quick... even something simple like taking Valen and Cienna will have some positive effect, especially if you back them with ship based AA. (Like taking Bossk, Jendon +2 tie bombers and a ship with ruthless strategists).

If you do take a minimal squad, make sure they have the means to act and have a little support. A cheap 54 point quasar will push those squads all day. Add some FCs and maybe kallus and/ ruthless strats and you have a solid AA platform backed by a minimal squadron effort.

I would also mention, don't discount your flotillas, against large swarms they do a fairly cost effective amount of damage (usually only 1 point at a time, but it adds up). Just don't send 'em alone if that swarm doesn't have a better target they'll eat a flotilla alive.

Mothma MC30s. Lots of MC30s. Fly fast and hit hard.

13 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Mothma MC30s. Lots of MC30s. Fly fast and hit hard.

And thats a prime example of "outfly them" approach

Just now, PT106 said:

And thats a prime example of "outfly them" approach

Nah, it's still "outlive them," just emphasizes the killing them faster side of the equation rather than the dying slower side.

Just now, PT106 said:

And thats a prime example of "outfly them" approach

I refer to it as Zoidberging

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

Nah, it's still "outlive them," just emphasizes the killing them faster side of the equation rather than the dying slower side.

Depends on the classification - as you aren't set up to kill squadrons faster than they're killing you

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I refer to it as Zoidberging

I don't have nearly enough likes for this.

Toryn Flak. Though you still need to motivate the enemy into you killing zone. Leave a flagship in a juicy spot perhaps (See PTs outlive)

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/09/16/uk-nationals-satos-star-destroyers/

Use obstacles to obstruct enemy squads. Use Admonition to draw enemy bombers into a misposition with a spread out formation.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/ackbar-mc30-star-destroyers/

Thanks all, there are definitely a few things I haven't been trying. The latest thing I tried was a "Need for Speed", but I did it with large ships and their asses are just too big for me to get away (Madine with 2 Engine Tech Liberties, those 2 shields on the side and 1 redirect just sucks).

I'm going to swap out some things for a couple Slicer Tools Flots and see if I can't get something to shake out. I'll likely also try the Mothma MC30s, I do love me some of the little shrimps. I was already giving the outlast approach a try, but I don't think I doubled down enough. I was working on a dual ISD + Dictor list, mostly because it's a really good way to absorb a BT Avenger (go ahead, let me scramble your big shot and kill the rest of your fleet). The Interdictor just isn't quite efficient enough when I could trade that for 3 slicing flots...

I by no means consider myself an expert but my best success going with a small Squad force has been the following.

This does require 50-80 points of squads but go with heavy flak ships. Then I go with several escorts and a Squad killer squad. Then get at least one ship if not two with ruthless strategists if you can. Then hold some squads back if they have a heavy force so you can tie them up if they split up.

For me it's all about keeping the other Squads occupied from turns 2-4 or 3-5 depending on when the main engagement happens. Don't rush your Squads out to engage, keep them close to your ships. This can keep your opponent from rushing in to engage. Just keep your Squads spread out so your opponent can't tie them all up at once then engage with as few squads as possible but focus down Intel squads if you can.

I have had some luck with Flechette Torpedoes, it's great for heavy ace squads as it can lock down scatter aces. The problem is their best platform is on a Raider and getting them to survive any amount of time and do the work you want them to do is almost impossible. I'll have to try slicer tools myself as I havent given it a close enough look.

One last thought...

This is a very expensive approach and opponents that recognize it will steer clear but...

That setup with a couple sacrificial squads will guarantee 2 damage on every squad it can flack, even Scatter Aces., You could reduce the cost a little going to a VicI but it's still 100 points plus squads. At least you have another shooter if you hit a list not heavy on squads.

Edit: Should be almost guarantee, it guarantees 1 hit and as long as your 2 blue with Kallus don't both roll Crits you guarantee a second hit. They could scatter one hit if the initial roll was double crit, but there is value to them spending their scatter too.

Pure squadronless is too hard of a sell for me for a reliable fleet. It is interesting as a gimmick fleet. I tend to bring a minimal 2-3 scatter aces with counter.

As Rebels, Toryn Farr is critical. She makes blue flak actually scary. Especially the double blue from a few ships. I have had a sort of unreliable success with triple Liberties and no squadrons. Three double black flak ships do an impressive amount of damage to any non-scatter Ace.

Imperials have it easier with the wonderful Raider. Raider 1, OE, and ER/FT is the best flak boat in the game. It is counterintuitive to most people’s ship-to-ship activation strategy, but move the Raider last. Move it onto the biggest ball of activated squads you can. Shoot for double arcing generic squads. If there aren’t generics, double arc the brace aces. Worry less about where that Raider will be the turn after and prioritize that double arc. This is where having even two counter squads is critical. Get them in there as a sacrifice play at the beginning of the squadron phase to preserve that Raider. Getting counter damage in means the Raider gets into the realm of killing almost every generic used a lot in this game

The thing is, you aren’t trying to necessarily kill your opponent’s squads. It is a success if you scare them off with minimal cost. Do enough damage to them and most players will back them off. Counter followed by double black flak does that

23 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

You need to have a way to mitigate their ability to do damage. Squadrons have a couple weaknesses there. If you are playing Imps Flechette Raiders can lay down walls of fire and prevent squadrons from having entire turns. This goes well with dedicated anti-squad fire from the fleet. If you're a Rebel using anything other than a Liberty, use Toryn. This will require patience.

The second thing I find that works is having first player. Most squadron builds will usually be able set up two rounds of concentrated fire if you give them first player. Luckily most can't or won't seriously bid. It's also much more difficult to set up a fork with squads that say with a GT ISD.

The last thing that's effective is preventing squad commands. The only sure fire way to do that is to blow the carrier(s) out of space, but there is an alternative initially. Double Slicers. They're cheap, they add ASq, and they cause pure havoc. This does NOT absolve you of the need to crack the carriers, but it can buy a lot of time and pain for the enemy. Hope this helps.

I've had Slicer Tools used against me so effectively, I started incorporating one into many of my builds. 2/3 of my last tourney games it came in handy, effectively stopping enemy squadrons for 3 turns each game. That was enough to force the enemy carrier to either flee or be inept and allow my squads to focus on ships. Last/Firsting with them is also amazing, if it's your optimal move at that point, you can change the carrier command from squad and at the start of the next turn get their backup carrier too.

Rebels have IMO the best method for delivering slicer tools in Quantum Storm. Move, Slice, Move again.

Sitting here trying to focus on work more than think about Armada (the constant struggle), and I had thought. Obviously not the key to making everything work, but a piece that seems interesting. Is Admiral Titus worthwhile against a dedicated squadron fleet? It seems like speeding up or slowing down a carrier could, at a minimum, force them to come into the fight with one less squadron token. Since it happens at the start of the first round, they may need to queue up several Navs just in case. One less squadron activation on the critical turn seems worth 2 points, right?

So this is an idea i put together with the brain storming i posted earlier.

This is 391 points so it has a fair bid for first although not overwhelming. It is low activations which is a downside but I feel very confident with 2/3 objectives. Advanced Gunnery would mean certain death to any scatter ace that got close to the Vic and heavy damage, if not death to any others. Contested Outpost makes them come to me and I'm good with that. Dangerous territory is probably the weakest but being able to run big ships with no worries about obstacles I think is a fair trade off, Jaina's Light could be an issue but probably not more than 15 more points than me.

Jerjerod keeps those big arcs pointed where they need to be. The Vic will be weak against ships but that wasn't the goal here, the goal was anti Squad with minimal squads.

Squad killers
Author: Thrindal

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 391/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 147 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Warlord ( 8 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ruthless Strategists ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
= 119 total ship cost

Raider-II Class Corvette (48 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Overload Pulse ( 8 points)
= 66 total ship cost

1 Bossk ( 23 points)
3 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 36 points)

2 hours ago, IronNerd said:

I'm going to swap out some things for a couple Slicer Tools Flots and see if I can't get something to shake out. I'll likely also try the Mothma MC30s, I do love me some of the little shrimps. I was already giving the outlast approach a try, but I don't think I doubled down enough. I was working on a dual ISD + Dictor list, mostly because it's a really good way to absorb a BT Avenger (go ahead, let me scramble your big shot and kill the rest of your fleet). The Interdictor just isn't quite efficient enough when I could trade that for 3 slicing flots...

I think you're on a right track, however I feel that Interdictor may be an overkill in your build (dual ISD list should be able to handle BT Avenger by itself - by forcing ISD to ISD trade in the worst case scenario) and having activation parity (or activation advantage) definitely helps against carrier-activated squads (as it allows for a delay in a ship activation to flak attacking squads). Keep in mind that while slicers are a good approach, in the age of relay this trick is harder to pull off and it is therefore less reliable.

3 hours ago, IronNerd said:

The Interdictor just isn't quite efficient enough when I could trade that for 3 slicing flots...

Have you considered using the Interdictor in this list to "prepare the battlefield"? Grav Shift Reroute might be a good way to set up obstruction zones for your ISDs to use. The G7X Grav Well Projector can mess with carrier deployment, forcing them to choose between running too far behind their squads to activate them without relay and deploying at a position that you can reach quickly with your ISDs.

I've been building some experience with the Interdictor lately. It isn't easy to leverage its ability to mess with the battlefield, but it also has the advantage of durability if you're building a fleet to outlast your opponent's squadrons.

Don’t forget that when wave 7 finally comes out, Imperials can do this:

ISD Kuat Refit:

- Leading Shots

-Flechette Torpedoes

-ECM

-Optional Boarding Troopers/Kallus/Avenger/QLT

I get the feeling squads aren’t going to be happy with that. (Or ships.) As for Rebels, the Profundity Expansion has an unknown card showing an unhappy-looking TIE fighter...