ok so I've got an epic game this weekend, 600pts a side, two players per team. We have a Team Scum and a Team Empire.

I'm on Team Scum for this one, and my wingman is using Cad Bane, Kavil, Kad Solus, Greedo, and Captain Jostero - so those cards aren't available to me.

at the moment I'm struggling to pick a list, mainly because I can't decide whether using 2 C-ROC cruisers in a 300pt list is as bad idea as I think it might be.

Between them, they eat 122pts of my 300pts - one is running cluster missiles, ordinance teams, sensor teams, weapons engineer, merchant 1, backup shield gen, wed-15, construction droid. the other is running Dengar, construction droid, heavy laser turret, thug droids, backup shield, optimised generators, insatiable wart.

now I've had alot of success with this pairing - they have taken down an imperial raider without loss previously - but that was in a 500pt per player doubles game, so they had a much bigger escort keeping the enemy off them. I also know I've got another Raider to deal with this time, so I'm worried about having ships with the firepower and staying power to deal with the pizza slice.

the rest of the list is;

Dalan oberos - mk2 title, VI Autothrusters

Sol Sixxa - VI, Sync Turret, Extra munitions, harpoon, bomblet, guidance chips

Talonbane - Vaksai, VI, engine upgrade, pulse ray shield, autothrusters, ion discharger

Viktor Hel- Vaksai, VI, Engine upgrade, stealth device, autothrusters, scavenger crane

2x cartel marauders - Vaksai, guidance chips, munitions failsafe, thread tracers, inertial dampener

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my first though was to take the missile armed C-ROC and swap the rest of the fleet for a pair of YV666(mangler Bossk and HLC Moralo) backed up by a swarm of 6 light syck's and two black sun assassin starvipers (mk2, VI and autothrusters) - but I'm not sure how well that will stand up?

so any thoughts?

should i risk the double CROC's at 300pts, or would it be safer to bring a mini-swarm? Or have any of you got any fun 300pt squadrons?

If you bring a C-Roc and you don’t mind proxying make sure to run Maul Crew and Zuckuss. Epic’s don’t get stressed, so they don’t have any down side.

Seems fine to me. I supose your 600P Epic WE is more Beer and pretzels anyway so if you had good experiances with double ROCs by al means bring them. 122Points of epic in a 300p epic list dosn't seem to much at all.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

If you bring a C-Roc and you don’t mind proxying make sure to run Maul Crew and Zuckuss. Epic’s don’t get stressed, so they don’t have any down side.

Do not do that it is pretty clear that these should be restricted to small and large only if FFG would pay for capable personal. Abusing the situation and bringing this card isn't honourable at all, only Scum would do that...

1 minute ago, Hannes Solo said:

Do not do that it is pretty clear that these should be restricted to small and large only if FFG would pay for capable personal. Abusing the situation and bringing this card isn't honourable at all, only Scum would do that...

Really? There’s so many unbalanced cards in Epic, so who cares. C-Roc can only shoot once. It’s not like a Raider and a C-R90 where they can one shot multiple Tie Fighters in a round with a billion shots.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

C-Roc can only shoot once. It’s not like a Raider and a C-R90 where they can one shot multiple Tie Fighters in a round with a billion shots.

a cluster missile, weapons engineer c-roc can shoot 2 targets a turn

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Really? There’s so many unbalanced cards in Epic, so who cares. C-Roc can only shoot once. It’s not like a Raider and a C-R90 where they can one shot multiple Tie Fighters in a round with a billion shots.

They are pretty much the worst broken thing in Epic. Yes its not so bad on the C-ROC as if you would put them on a CR90 or Raider cause it is limited to one attack. However seeing a card that clearly says 'I am not intended to be used in epic cause the imbecile who wrote me didn't know that epic exists' I wouldn't use it in a casual epic game. In a non-casual epic game I would suspect it getting banned anyway.

4 minutes ago, Surak said:

a cluster missile, weapons engineer c-roc can shoot 2 targets a turn

That is not true (look up the FAQ!)

4 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

They are pretty much the worst broken thing in Epic. Yes its not so bad on the C-ROC as if you would put them on a CR90 or Raider cause it is limited to one attack. However seeing a card that clearly says 'I am not intended to be used in epic cause the imbecile who wrote me didn't know that epic exists' I wouldn't use it in a casual epic game. In a non-casual epic game I would suspect it getting banned anyway.

It can’t go on the Raider and even on the C-R90 you have no Focus Modifiers and then you’ll have no Zuckuss. Maybe the designers balanced it knowing it has its limitations. I don’t see anything wrong with it at all.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

It can’t go on the Raider and even on the C-R90 you have no Focus Modifiers and then you’ll have no Zuckuss. Maybe the designers balanced it knowing it has its limitations. I don’t see anything wrong with it at all.

When you do not see a problem with a 3 point crew upgrade that gives full rerolls on every attack without any cost on a CR-90 when good sir we have no basis of conversation.

3 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

When you do not see a problem with a 3 point crew upgrade that gives full rerolls on every attack without any cost on a CR-90 when good sir we have no basis of conversation.

The Epic ships are so overcosted I don’t see a problem. We had to give players 40 points free of an epic ship at our last tournament to make an incentive to run them and for them to be balanced.

6 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

The Epic ships are so overcosted I don’t see a problem. We had to give players 40 points free of an epic ship at our last tournament to make an incentive to run them and for them to be balanced.

So how is a CR-90 with Maul balanced against a Raider without Maul? How is a C-ROC with Maul and Zuckuss balanced against a Gozanti without?

If you want to make players use epic ships in epic tournaments just set a min number of epic points they have to bring. I am used to 3+ Epic points for a 300Point List.

2 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

That is not true (look up the FAQ!)

I've just been through the FAQ and I must be missing it, would you mind pointing me in the right direction?

2 minutes ago, Surak said:

I've just been through the FAQ and I must be missing it, would you mind pointing me in the right direction?

You need to look at this

You cant choose a new target (1st Step of the timing chart) cause for the second attack you jump back to step 2 of the timing chart.

13 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

You need to look at this

You cant choose a new target (1st Step of the timing chart) cause for the second attack you jump back to step 2 of the timing chart.

ah I see what your going for - I'm not trying to fire the two halves of the cluster missile at different targets, I'm firing two separate cluster missiles using the epic ordinance rules.

2 minutes ago, Surak said:

ah I see what your going for - I'm not trying to fire the two halves of the cluster missile at different targets, I'm firing two separate cluster missiles using the epic ordinance rules.

Now you need to point me to the Rule that allows for using a single secondary two times.

1 hour ago, Hannes Solo said:

Now you need to point me to the Rule that allows for using a single secondary two times.

Haven't got the rules books to hand, but I use this thread as a reference

@Surak Uhm well, the second point gamblertuba makes in the first post of the thread you linked says

On 20.11.2015 at 7:58 PM, gamblertuba said:

2. You can fire once with each secondary weapon with no energy concerns. So long as you have targets in arc.

You can fire ONCE with each secondary weapon.

9 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

@Surak Uhm well, the second point gamblertuba makes in the first post of the thread you linked says

You can fire ONCE with each secondary weapon.

and this is why I like bouncing lists and rules around the forum - I'd always assumed that the "you can fire ordinance as long as you have target locks (limited by the infinite combo rule)" overroad that restriction.

every day is a learning experience and all that

so armed with this new knowledge, I've gone for a new build for the merchant 1 - setting it up to fill the same close-assault role.

C-ROC - Merchant 1 title, WED-15, construction droid, Quad laser cannons, backup shield, optimised generators, breach specialists, IG-RM thug droids

ok done a bit more theory work

I'm down to three lists.

list 1 - "freight train" 298pts

C-ROC - dengar, Heavy laser turret, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, merchant 1, optimised generator, breach specialist, gunnery team

6x Cartel Spacers - light Syck title

Moralo Eval - Heavy laser cannon, gonk, gunner, tactician, scav crane, countermeasures

Bossk - fearlessness, Mangler, tactician, lattz razzi, mercenary co pilot, scav crane, countermeasures

Dalan Oberos - Mk2 title, Veteran instincts, autothrusters

black sun assassin - Mk2 title, Veteran instincts, autothrusters

list 2 - "C-ROC swarm" 300pts

C-ROC - WED-15, construction droid, Quad laser cannons, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, merchant 1, optimised generator, breach specialist, gunnery team

C-ROC - dengar, construction droid, Heavy laser turret, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, insatiable wart, optimised generator

5x Cartel Spacers - light Syck title

Serisau - heavy syck, flechette cannon, VI, stealth device

2x cartel marauders - Vaksai, guidance chips, munitions failsafe, inertial dampener, cluster missiles

4x binayre pirate

list 3 - "Smash and Grab" 300pts

C-ROC - WED-15, construction droid, Quad laser cannons, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, merchant 1, optimised generator, breach specialist, gunnery team

C-ROC - dengar, construction droid, Heavy laser turret, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, insatiable wart, optimised generator

Quinn Jast - heavy syck, adaptability, guidance chips, harpoon missile

Dalan Oberos - Mk2 title, Veteran instincts, autothrusters

cartel marauder - Vaksai, guidance chips, munitions failsafe, inertial dampener, thread tracers, Vectored thrusters

2x Gand Findsman - Snap Shot, Fire Control System, Gunner, Vectored thrusters

1x Gand Findsman - Snap Shot, Fire Control System, Gunner, Mist Hunter, Tractor Beam

so any thoughts on these? All i know of my opponents are;

they are imperial

there is only 1 epic ship, and its a raider

the one player is bringing aces

ok so the game is now played, and the tl:dr is the scum lost.

in the end i decided to fly something completely off the wall and took no small-based ships at all - so my list was;

Croc - with dengar, construction droid, Heavy laser turret, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, insatiable wart, optimised generator

C-ROC - construction droid, Heavy laser turret, IG-RM thug droids, backup shield, merchant one, optimised generator

2 YV666 slavers with Anti-pursuit lasers

Emon with Andrasta, and bomblet generator

Kath Scarlet with Adaptability, tailgunner, and engine upgrade

and Asajj with shadowcaster, gyro, glitterstimm, VI

now some parts of this list worked well above expectations - particularly the Wart and one of the slavers. The Wart was an uber-tank, it soaked up a massive amount of firepower thanks to the title+recover+backup shield+construction droid - in the end it was brought down by the enemy raider (harpoons+assault missiles+primary weapon for 3 turns) and a small swarm of defenders. One of my Slavers died gloriously tanking fire for Kath and Emon, but the other manager to survive the initial pass, take out 2 TIE fighters, and then neutralise Ryad for three turns through bumping (stripping her shields in the process)

if there were any real let-downs to the list it was Emon and Asajj - Emon more than Asajj as Asajj was definitely a victim of the role i chose for her.

Emon was dead by turn 3. I'd paired each firespray up with a Slaver, the slaver in front of the Firespray to give 270 degrees of coverage between both ships. Unfortunately, the imperial side setup a strike group of 4 defenders (most of the enemy list was defenders) directly opposite my slavers, that group was Ryad, Rexler, Maarek Stele, and a Glaive Squadron pilot. Rexler+Maarek was brutal against the YV protecting Emon, putting it down in two rounds of fire (with help from the other 2 defenders). Once the shield-ship was gone Emon died a turn later, blocked in by the 4 defenders and also taking fore from the raider. This focusing did allow Kath, Asajj and the surviving slaver to get behind the raider with only Ryad as a serious threat (you know, other than then raider itself).

Asajj (along with my team-mates shadowport hunter) was given the job of getting behind the imperials to either split there attack in two directions (didn't happen) or blow the engines out of the raider (my preferred method of neutralising a 2-card epic is to kill the power generating half, also didn't happen). In this case, we got the positioning right, but probably 1 or 2 turns too late to actually make a difference. With 6 attack dice between the two lancers we simply could push enough damage through the raiders shields before it could recover (it didn't need energy for guns) each turn. And even the late game arrival of Kath and the surviving Slaver couldn't finish the job. Having said that, Asajj did survive the game having only lost 1 shield to splash damage from an assault missile so i think the issue here is more how i used her rather than an issue with the build.

in any case, we've agreed to have another epic game as soon as wave 12 arrives (the imps want to try the gunboat), so I'll take my lessens learnt from this game forward to that.

Awesome! I've been wanting to play such a high point threshold game for ages now.

With Asajj, you could guarantee her getting into position with a couple of Burnout Slam illicits rather then Glitterstim. With her dial you can get anywhere on the board in a few turns that way.

Your overall list has the kind of hull, agility and maneuverability that works well in Epic games. However, you lack offensive mods of pretty much any kind with all your large based ships. This basically means that every ship does a damage less per turn than it should.

I'd advise swapping out Kath and Emon for some Harpoon carrying Scurrgs (with Deadeye). They can fire into an oncoming mass to get the conditions out, and then your CROCs can deal the critical hits at will for massive extra damage. Two of them with Extra munitions leaves you quite a few points spare to beef up your other ships, as well.

You can put PTL on Asajj instead of VI. With her arcs and ability she doesn't get much out of the extra PS. The YV-666s are difficult, but putting Zuckuss and two inspiring recruits on one, and a Mangler cannon and Boba Fett on the other will work well for you. A Mangler/Boba can remove the Ordinance Tubes from a Huge Ship, and ruin any number of other builds.

Your CROCs are fantastic, no doubt about it.

thanks for the feedback Astech.

yes there was a definite lack of dice modification in the list, and i agree that the firesprays were the weak link in the chain. Honestly, I'd have much rather had a pair of IG2000's on the table rather than the firesprays, however I've only got 1 IG and I'd decided I was going to try and play epic with no small bases - so 2 firespays it was.

asajj is a tricky one - yes with burnout SLAM (which was my original illicit for her) I could have got her into position alot earlier, but on her way up the table she helped scrub out 3 enemy ships - all finished off by the YV666 - and if she had been SLAMing she couldn't have added that firepower in. Also, she would have then arrived on her own vs the raider, and I'm not sure she would have done too well at that point.

The YV666's did exactly what i wanted, they were designed to be cheap blockers to push me through the initial joust. That's why i limited them to Anti-pursuit lasers as their only upgrade. Whether that was the best use of them is probably up for debate, as the one that did survive managed to essentially negate Ryad for the closing turns of the game, and finished off 2 TIE fighters and a TIE bomber that asajj had weakened on her way past.

the biggest lesson I took from the game is that my opponents had too easy a time concentrating fire to bring down the high hull ships - so next time I will be bringing small base ships again

and yes I was VERY happy with the C-ROC's, they managed to take a LOT of fire, and it took multiple ships focusing on one for several turns to finally bring it down (which allowed the other one to break contact and survive)

I'll start another one of these threads when I start planning my rebel epic list for the next match (which will be happening just as soon as wave 12 arrives) as it was quite fun working through the options here