You know, I've heard this argument so much that scum is now broken. it's driving me mental. get him to fly double caster or have him fly Dengar/Nym these are still very strong squads.

The last person who said that, i made them swap lists and play again. I was flying RACLo and they had Dengar/Nym.

Low and behold, I won with the other list. maybe just try that.

What's with the LRS on Tomax? Are using his primary weapon a lot?

In regards to Scum, they're not broken. They just have to work harder now. I've flown a couple of games now with the following:

Dengar(52) [Dengar(33), K4 Security Droid(3), Punishing One(12), Expertise(4)]

Ketsu Onyo(47) [Ketsu Onyo(38), Veteran Instincts(1), K4 Security Droid(3), Glitterstim(2), Shadow Caster(3)]

I don't have a perfect record with it but I have beaten people with it. I'm not sure I've figured out the best cards for the ships but it's a WIP.

3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

What's with the LRS on Tomax? Are using his primary weapon a lot?

My guess? would be to get the TL nice and early for Vess, Tomax can fire his guided without losing an action first term of combat

3 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

What's with the LRS on Tomax? Are using his primary weapon a lot?

Presumably there to get mods on the K turn and range 1.

Scum are fine. Break out the harpoons, bring home the whales. Or run Denym.

Didn't Scum just win Belgian nationals? And New Zealand nationals? And wasn't there Jumpmasters in both winning lists?

Scum is fine. Jumpmasters are fine. Attani Mindlink is fine. Everything is fine.

45 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

How do I knock some sense into him so he will keep playing the game?

Get him to stop playing such awful squads, for a start. He has three squishy ships with a grand total of 15 hp between them and no way to trigger Jostero's ability. I mean, I know you're not meant to play top-of-the-line stuff all the time, but that squad is an absolute disaster.

If he wants to run a Viper and two Khiraxz, have him drop the Ion Torpedoes and the Hotshot Blasters, trade Accuracy Corrector for FCS, then used the 12 points (!?) saved to up Jostero to Talonbane, equip Viktor with Engine and Autothrusters to give him someone he can count on to not roll over and die the first time he's shot at (at the very least it gives him a fighting chance to not lose the Stealth Device the first time he's shot at), and add Autothrusters to Thweek. And since that still actually leaves a couple of points left over, he can then look at splashing some Illicits around.

That squad looks like he grabbed a handful of upgrade cards, threw them up in the air, and whatever landed face up he took.

57 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Colonel Vessery — TIE Defender	35
Wired	3
Ion Cannon	3
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II	1
TIE/D	0
Ship Total: 42
Tomax Bren — TIE Bomber	24
Crack Shot	1
Unguided Rockets	2
Long-Range Scanners	0
Ship Total: 27
Zertik Strom — TIE Advanced	26
Predator	3
Accuracy Corrector	0
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II	1
TIE/x1	0
Ship Total: 30
VS Viktor Hel — Kihraxz Fighter 25 Veteran Instincts 1 Harpoon Missiles 4 "Hot Shot" Blaster 3 Guidance Chips 0 Stealth Device 3 Munitions Failsafe 1 Vaksai 0 Ship Total: 32 Captain Jostero — Kihraxz Fighter 24 Lone Wolf 2 Harpoon Missiles 4 Black Market Slicer Tools 1 Vectored Thrusters 2 Munitions Failsafe 1 Guidance Chips 0 Vaksai 0 Ship Total: 29 Thweek — StarViper 28 Ion Torpedoes 5 Accuracy Corrector 3 "Hot Shot" Blaster 3 Guidance Chips 0 StarViper Mk. II -3 Virago 1 Ship Total: 37 The almighty Imperials have done it again! Although my opponent started complaining about how JM5Ks are useless and Scum is the worst faction now, etc. How do I knock some sense into him so he will keep playing the game?

Let him go. The fewer complainers, the better. Kidding. Complainers are in every game.

Seriously, I would kind of laugh at him and point out how strong Scum is. Tell him to practice his flying. When he's done all he can with his flying and his peers agree he's not just flying poorly, then he can complain.

Suggest ways to improve his flying so he has some excitement for future games and direction. Don't just **** on his parade, either.

52 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

You know, I've heard this argument so much that scum is now broken. it's driving me mental. get him to fly double caster or have him fly Dengar/Nym these are still very strong squads.

The last person who said that, i made them swap lists and play again. I was flying RACLo and they had Dengar/Nym.

Low and behold, I won with the other list. maybe just try that.

Swap list would be the final solution to any tournament meta complaints

Wait.

People think Scum was ruined?

I'd still vote it as being the best faction, especially now with the updated Starviper, which is surprisingly effective. The JM5K still fills out Scum lists very well. The gap between factions is just smaller thanks to the JM5K nerf, me thinks.

3 small ship Scum, however, has traditionally been an ineffective archetype, typically worse than what Imperial 3 ship lists can put out. So the list that your buddy played may just not be as good as expected.

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Get him to stop playing such awful squads, for a start. He has three squishy ships with a grand total of 15 hp between them and no way to trigger Jostero's ability. I mean, I know you're not meant to play top-of-the-line stuff all the time, but that squad is an absolute disaster.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

That squad looks like he grabbed a handful of upgrade cards, threw them up in the air, and whatever landed face up he took.

Its a pretty obvious "I just bought Guns for Hire and want to fly it" list.

Harpoons trigger Jostero. Chimps is obvious with the Harpoons and Ion Torp. Munitions Failsafe is 0 pts add-on with the title, so why not when you have both Harpoons and the Hotshot. Stealth Device is an obvious one with Victor Hel's pilot ability. BMST is 0 pts with title, so "why not". VI puts Hel at 9 which is a good place to be, but I would have liked VT on Hel instead of Jostero here to take advantage of the higher PS. Lone Wolf is ok on a 3 ship list depending on how you fly.

Negatives and my opinion: I'm not sure why he went with AC on Thweek instead of AS or FCS which I think are better options on that pilot, and the heavy use of hot-shot blasters seems like he may be hung up on turrets from previously playing jumpmasters (per his complaint). I think he's probably got hangups from fly trip torp U-boats with his heavy use of ordnance and chimps. Chimps are easy to slot into harpoon Vaksai, but I would have liked AT on Thweek. I'm not a big fan of hot-shots, but they have their uses. Ion Torp is very pricey; he seems to have something against swarms with it and the harpoons (maybe OP^3/FSR PTSD?).

Its not a totally thoughtless list, but could be better.

Edit: Back on topic, switching lists with him is a good idea. You can also maybe point out a few decent archtypical lists from juggler that are still out there. I don't know what ships he has available (other than jumpmasters and these guys) but Dengar is still a boss post-nerf and you can pair up lots with him to make a decent list.

1 hour ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Colonel Vessery — TIE Defender	35
Wired	3
Ion Cannon	3
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II	1
TIE/D	0
Ship Total: 42
Tomax Bren — TIE Bomber	24
Crack Shot	1
Unguided Rockets	2
Long-Range Scanners	0
Ship Total: 27
Zertik Strom — TIE Advanced	26
Predator	3
Accuracy Corrector	0
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II	1
TIE/x1	0
Ship Total: 30
VS Viktor Hel — Kihraxz Fighter 25 Veteran Instincts 1 Harpoon Missiles 4 "Hot Shot" Blaster 3 Guidance Chips 0 Stealth Device 3 Munitions Failsafe 1 Vaksai 0 Ship Total: 32 Captain Jostero — Kihraxz Fighter 24 Lone Wolf 2 Harpoon Missiles 4 Black Market Slicer Tools 1 Vectored Thrusters 2 Munitions Failsafe 1 Guidance Chips 0 Vaksai 0 Ship Total: 29 Thweek — StarViper 28 Ion Torpedoes 5 Accuracy Corrector 3 "Hot Shot" Blaster 3 Guidance Chips 0 StarViper Mk. II -3 Virago 1 Ship Total: 37 The almighty Imperials have done it again! Although my opponent started complaining about how JM5Ks are useless and Scum is the worst faction now, etc. How do I knock some sense into him so he will keep playing the game?

Why is he complaining about Jumpmasters being weak when he's not even using any? Next time my TIE Defender and Lambda list loses, can I blame it on TIE Punishers being too expensive?

42 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

That squad looks like he grabbed a handful of upgrade cards, threw them up in the air, and whatever landed face up he took.

Hey, now! Building squads that way is harder than it sounds! For one thing, you tend to have quite a mess to clean up, afterwards.

3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Why is he complaining about Jumpmasters being weak when he's not even using any? Next time my TIE Defender and Lambda list loses, can I blame it on TIE Punishers being too expensive?

You can infer its a former jumpmaster player that is now flying a different list post-nerf, and is upset that they were nerfed into "uselessness".

10 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Why is he complaining about Jumpmasters being weak when he's not even using any? Next time my TIE Defender and Lambda list loses, can I blame it on TIE Punishers being too expensive?

This. I mean, what was the point, that he took no Jumpmasters because they are "worthless" now? Since when is it a bad thing when facing an enemy in a game provides a meaningful challenge? Having your reactions be this binary is a far bigger problem than any real or perceived nerfs.

By the way, moving around the board is usually more fun than throwing a couple dice down- so, might I suggest taking those same ships and adding a few boosts and BRs to the mix instead of missiles?

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

You can infer its a former jumpmaster player that is now flying a different list post-nerf, and is upset that they were nerfed into "uselessness".

He could always do what a player did back in our gaming group in high school (we played Decipher's Lord of the Rings card game), and simply state that he's already built a deck he enjoys, and then refuse to acknowledge any erratas or blacklisting, and refuse to play against anyone who won't let him do so.

I told him we could play a pre-nerf cards allowed game, but that I could use pre-nerf stuff too. He refused.

3 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

I told him we could play a pre-nerf cards allowed game, but that I could use pre-nerf stuff too. He refused.

Well that was awfully unfair of you to suggest that both of you could have some fun instead of just handing him a major advantage!

7 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

This. I mean, what was the point, that he took no Jumpmasters because they are "worthless" now? Since when is it a bad thing when facing an enemy in a game provides a meaningful challenge? Having your reactions be this binary is a far bigger problem than any real or perceived nerfs.

By the way, moving around the board is usually more fun than throwing a couple dice down- so, might I suggest taking those same ships and adding a few boosts and BRs to the mix instead of missiles?

As a former Jumpmaster player, I bet he is taking ordnance because that's what jumps were really good at.

Instead of complaining, I'm simply adapting. I probably will never fly two jumps in a list (I never bought a third) again but I'm looking for ways to still use them. If I play with other things too that's awesome - I like flying all the things. My favorite part about Jumpmasters is gone (I really liked them as a torpedo carrier - went to build a funsies epic list and when I wanted a torp boat I almost went to one and said wait, I can't dang it), but the chassis can still fly as something else.

Tell him to tweak his list and play style. Find the next thing. I've dabbled with a little of everything, and while I haven't yet found my next "thing" I'm having fun trying more ships.

Why AC on Zertik instead of ATC? Especially since you have 1 point left over and Predator.

Double. Argh.

1 minute ago, Oprah Smash said:

Why AC on Zertik instead of ATC? Especially since you have 1 point left over and Predator.

If I roll a crit and blank, Predator. If not, AC. Save the action for defensive evade

Any FAQ that hits your squad is going to require adaptation, or will result in frustration. Your opponent chose the latter.

Scum still has tricks for days, Jumps still have a valid spot at the table, and the horizon is broader for our listbuilding to boot. Thweek! Guns for Hire!

@Celestial Lizards , the choice is whether you want to nurse this little baby bird or kick him out of the nest and see if he flies. If he's as petulant and obstinate as he sounds to me, I know exactly which option I'd choose.

Well... It's not even a very good list....

It's not high PS, it's not hypermobile... It's not the most optimal imperial list... Definitely a casual fun list. If that's broken, maybe your friend needs the jumpmaster OP to be good at this game.

just have him fly triple harpoon deadeye scurggs, its small ship uboats