10 minutes ago, JaxonEvans said:

This is laughable.

So I said, verbatim, "The exception, of course, was Miranda." And your counter-evidence was:

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The tournament before the nerfs I played 4/5 games against Nym or Miranda loaded up with... Bombs.

Yeah. Well done, sir. Very well done.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

So I said, verbatim, "The exception, of course, was Miranda." And your counter-evidence was:

Yeah. Well done, sir. Very well done.

I mentioned Nym as well. He was clearly dominant too.

And that was kind of my point. You are complaining that they nerfed bombs when only miranda was abusing them. But that's the thing, they didn't nerf bombs. They nerfed Mirandas ability to use them easily (and having played with and against her since then, she still is a powerful bomber). They also had a nerf for the other uber dominant bomber, Nym via genius. So like I said. They didn't nerf bombs, they nerfed the ship that even you said was meta-defining.

43 minutes ago, JaxonEvans said:

I mentioned Nym as well. He was clearly dominant too.

As did I. His dominance using Bomblet Generator and Genius was a flash in the pan.

I'm going to try again.

"Bombs" were never a problem in the meta. Miranda (and, briefly, Nym) using bombs was a problem in the meta.

Yet FFG didn't castrate Miranda, even though their "fix" (make AdvancedSLAM completely useless on K-wings) was clearly targeted at Miranda. Miranda has barely noticed. FFG nerfed everybody else using bombs. K-wings -- except, of course, Miranda -- are useless now.

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And that was kind of my point. You are complaining that they nerfed bombs when only miranda was abusing them. But that's the thing, they didn't nerf bombs. They nerfed Mirandas ability to use them easily (and having played with and against her since then, she still is a powerful bomber). They also had a nerf for the other uber dominant bomber, Nym via genius. So like I said. They didn't nerf bombs, they nerfed the ship that even you said was meta-defining.

No, you are not understanding.

My point is that bombs (and bombing) were never the problem. Miranda was. (And, briefly, Nym.) FFG didn't nerf Miranda. FFG nerfed Action: bombs and Action: bombing, by obliterating the usefulness of AdvSLAM to K-wings.

They didn't change bombs. But they definitely nerfed bombs and bombing. All to get Miranda ... and they missed. Badly.

It wouldn't piss me off so much except that non-Miranda bomb lists were just never a big deal in the meta. Yet FFG obliterated the archetype, because they took a ridiculously poorly aimed shot at Miranda, and there's a huge amount of room for better-tailored fixes.

7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

My point is that bombs (and bombing) were never the problem. Miranda was. (And, briefly, Nym.) FFG didn't nerf Miranda. FFG nerfed Action: bombs and Action: bombing, by obliterating the usefulness of AdvSLAM to K-wings.

It was something I didn't really get, to be honest. The tools in Miranda's arsenal which invariably cause me grief are the Twin Laser Turret (paired with her annoying shield economy ability) and the Bomblet Generator/Sabine combination. Cluster Mines were nasty, but didn't actually feel that bad by comparison.

Glad to hear the comment about splitting up a mob working - I haven't yet had to deal with triple tactician wookies, but the squad is floating around and I'll have to play it sooner or later. I'm not sure how to approach it with my strikers - Range 3 is a bad call because he gets a range defence bonus and I don't, Range 2 is a bad call because strikers are incredibly sensitive to stress, meaning Range 1 - which just feels suicidal but might be the right answer - form up into a tight wedge and go for a block + 4 range 1 shots on one of them.

32 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It was something I didn't really get, to be honest. The tools in Miranda's arsenal which invariably cause me grief are the Twin Laser Turret (paired with her annoying shield economy ability) and the Bomblet Generator/Sabine combination. Cluster Mines were nasty, but didn't actually feel that bad by comparison.

Glad to hear the comment about splitting up a mob working - I haven't yet had to deal with triple tactician wookies, but the squad is floating around and I'll have to play it sooner or later. I'm not sure how to approach it with my strikers - Range 3 is a bad call because he gets a range defence bonus and I don't, Range 2 is a bad call because strikers are incredibly sensitive to stress, meaning Range 1 - which just feels suicidal but might be the right answer - form up into a tight wedge and go for a block + 4 range 1 shots on one of them.

You approach it the same way you approach any number of wookie gunships, chase their tails. If you can get behind it then it is a sitting duck. Generally once I have their tail I will fly INCREDIBLY conservatively to make sure they do not get a shot on me. Sometimes even choosing to just hammer away from range 3. If you find yourself taking one on head on, race to get behind them with a K-turn or another 180 maneuver.

It's actually one of my favorite parts about the Wookies. They are OLD Star Wars Designs and handle similarly to how I imagine a Mustang would do against a Mig-21 or some other super sonic jet that is going to guns.

40 minutes ago, Mackaywarrior said:

You approach it the same way you approach any number of wookie gunships, chase their tails. If you can get behind it then it is a sitting duck. Generally once I have their tail I will fly INCREDIBLY conservatively to make sure they do not get a shot on me. Sometimes even choosing to just hammer away from range 3. If you find yourself taking one on head on, race to get behind them with a K-turn or another 180 maneuver.

Agreed, but it's figuring out how to get behind them in the first place which is the key trick.

Which is another reason for the high-speed head-on - if you end up in range 2, you'll be stressed and unable to make your K-turn or segnor's loop, and (in the case of a TIE striker) won't have the speed to break away.

I guess splitting up the five strikers into a group of 3 and a group of 2 and coming in from alternate sides is an option, but balancing them to be far enough apart that one group gets unreinforced shots whilst not being so far apart that the wookies just either split up themselves or thach weave to cover one anothers' tails is going to be the key trick; more importantly, getting behind someone is one thing but staying behind someone is annoyingly hard in a striker - once the adaptive ailerons come on line they have an effective minimum speed 3.

28 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed, but it's figuring out how to get behind them in the first place which is the key trick.

Which is another reason for the high-speed head-on - if you end up in range 2, you'll be stressed and unable to make your K-turn or segnor's loop, and (in the case of a TIE striker) won't have the speed to break away.

I guess splitting up the five strikers into a group of 3 and a group of 2 and coming in from alternate sides is an option, but balancing them to be far enough apart that one group gets unreinforced shots whilst not being so far apart that the wookies just either split up themselves or thach weave to cover one anothers' tails is going to be the key trick; more importantly, getting behind someone is one thing but staying behind someone is annoyingly hard in a striker - once the adaptive ailerons come on line they have an effective minimum speed 3.

bank + 1 hard + BR can keep things manageable

14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

"Bombs" didn't really catch on in any meta. With one exception, bombs never had any sustained success. Which, naturally, led to them being castrated by FFG because some really silly people demanded it, and FFG caves pretty easily to really silly people.

(The exception, of course, was Miranda. Who is still around. (Yes, yes, Nym; flash in the pan before he was nerfed.))

Jeff, generally you say a lot of sensible things.

This post was nonsense though.

On 2017-11-13 at 9:12 PM, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Seems tier-two for the long-haul.
Support: Three-dice primary, 180-degree arc, lots of hull/shield, and 1.X evades every turn.

you do realize that 1 evade + 1 agi is better than 2 agi and probably close to 3 agi (i have not made the maths yet). With lots of hull/shield, a 3 dice primary, a huge arc and a cost low enough to include 4 in a squad, its 100% tier 1.

The biggest issue wookiees have is poor offensive mods. But that's easily avoided with certain crew and support options. Even runnign Rey on one can make it work.

54 minutes ago, Thormind said:

you do realize that 1 evade + 1 agi is better than 2 agi and probably close to 3 agi (i have not made the maths yet).

In terms of expected outcomes, the answer is that reinforce plus 1agis gives more expected evades than 3ag (naked) but less than 3 green dice behind a focus. Obviously there are loads of other considerations like maximum and minimum evades, variance and spending focus vs not spending reinforce.

Difficult to say which is 'better' as its subjective and situational in this case but they are certainly comparable.

Ill say it again here. From multiple play experiences, I feel pretty confident that Reinforce action was undercosted on this ship. It should either cost more, or have 2 less shields, or have 0 AGI, or red hard turns to occasionally turn off Reinforce when having to turn. (Someone could probably math the stats with Reinforce in mind and come up with the same conclusion.)

Id go with 0 AGI haha.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The biggest issue wookiees have is poor offensive mods. But that's easily avoided with certain crew and support options. Even runnign Rey on one can make it work.

Indeed. Although 4 with Commandoes make a decent attempt, and three with Expertise are at least on a par with 'normal' attackers. With 180' arc, you can provide enough concentrated fire to make up for the loss of accuracy (albeit at a cost of not spattering stress everywhere in the enemy squad).

3 is a lot higher risk though. Taking one out isn't THAT tough, and you're then losing a third of your list and a third of your firepower, if your opponent then has anything remotely tanky left and out-points you, you're in trouble.

52 minutes ago, phild0 said:

Ill say it again here. From multiple play experiences, I feel pretty confident that Reinforce action was undercosted on this ship. It should either cost more, or have 2 less shields, or have 0 AGI, or red hard turns to occasionally turn off Reinforce when having to turn. (Someone could probably math the stats with Reinforce in mind and come up with the same conclusion.)

Id go with 0 AGI haha.

I think a worse dial might do the trick- give it a Lambda dial and I think it would actually be pretty balanced.

19 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I think a worse dial might do the trick- give it a Lambda dial and I think it would actually be pretty balanced.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed, but it's figuring out how to get behind them in the first place which is the key trick.

If they had a worse dial it certainly would be easier to get behind them. Unfortunately that 180 arc makes it nearly impossible to avoid all wookies if they get into the center and take a pinwheel formation. Well flown wookies will always have something to shoot and (almost) always get their reinforce. They are just so darn efficient!

In general for Wookiees, they're so incredibly efficient. Compare a Wookiee to a Firespray. Similar defensive profile, similar dial, similar arc width. However, Auzitucks are a lot cheaper (so you can add strong upgrades). I was thinking a month or two back: "maybe I should dust off the triple firespray for fun" and then glanced at an Auzituck. They might not rule the game of X-Wing, but they've got one of the most solid platforms for a baseline ship in the game right now.

14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As did I. His dominance using Bomblet Generator and Genius was a flash in the pan.

Nym's still #5 among Rebels (#9 overall) and #4 among Scum (#18 overall).

To say that Nym was just a "flash in the pan" is kind of overstating things. It's possible that the 'Bomb Meta' was itself a little overstated, but still.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed, but it's figuring out how to get behind them in the first place which is the key trick.

Which is another reason for the high-speed head-on - if you end up in range 2, you'll be stressed and unable to make your K-turn or segnor's loop, and (in the case of a TIE striker) won't have the speed to break away.

I guess splitting up the five strikers into a group of 3 and a group of 2 and coming in from alternate sides is an option, but balancing them to be far enough apart that one group gets unreinforced shots whilst not being so far apart that the wookies just either split up themselves or thach weave to cover one anothers' tails is going to be the key trick; more importantly, getting behind someone is one thing but staying behind someone is annoyingly hard in a striker - once the adaptive ailerons come on line they have an effective minimum speed 3.

I am a big believer in death by a million paper cuts with the gunship. Just pushing through one damage a turn without them being able to shoot at you is a big win. Problem with that is you could run out of time in a tournament setting but that has not been the issue for me yet.

What I recommend is 1s and barrel rolls to stay behind them. Even a naked 3 die attack will get through eventually.

9 hours ago, Thormind said:

you do realize that 1 evade + 1 agi is better than 2 agi and probably close to 3 agi (i have not made the maths yet). With lots of hull/shield, a 3 dice primary, a huge arc and a cost low enough to include 4 in a squad, its 100% tier 1.

Good call.. two months later lol

Yeah, Wookies are good. #freshouttacookies

did the Wookies win a regional or something? why was this thread necro'd...

27 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

did the Wookies win a regional or something? why was this thread necro'd...

I blame a catchy title created by that genius and oh so humble OP.