Yup, the favour is not automatically yours so this can be countered especially considering the cost to get them out (charge etc not withstanding)

15 hours ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

Can you find a picture of a kamayari with down facing wings?

https://imgur.com/a/jtEH9

One goes up, and the other goes down. They can also be straight or come with 1 "blade". There are lots of different configurations of kamayuri. They weren't just for tripping...they would be used to hook the limbs of mounted guys and bring them down, or even the necks of guys from above. They were used as tools sometimes, too. It is almost literally just a spear with a kama blade on the end.

16 hours ago, Yoritomo Reiu said:

Can you find a picture of a kamayari with down facing wings?

Sweet, two packs in and with the exception of that Honoring card to just be gravy, I reckon I can chuck together a seriously dirty Phoenix Dishonor/hand control deck.

Methinks that Lighthouse might be borderline busted. I'm forcing them to be bidding 1 a turn AND I get to have quite a degree of control over their draws? People aren't gonna like that.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

I mean I can see a dragon character that can literally match it word for word.

This ability is strong if you have imperial favor and for greater glory. otherwise it is just a stat boost that slightly synergizes with spiritcaller.

i think all of the discard imperial favor abilities are supposed to be op, because they are so conditional.

also if you feel the dragon cards dont have potential i would look at the stone of sorrows

Would a good Lion player bring IU out against Yokuni if Lion didn't control the favor? Probably not, unless they had no other choice.

Having both the bushi and courier keywords should not be overlooked and the ability is strong with or without FGG or Spiritcaller in play. I think you're underselling it a bit.

3 hours ago, BordOne said:

I mean I can see a dragon character that can literally match it word for word.

I'm curious as to which character you are referring to... I assume you mean Yokuni, correct? If so, we are talking about the Clan champion and what he allows the Dragon player to have in his/her deck. Other than the Clan champion (of which every Clan has a similar, overly powerful character in most instances), I don't have any other 5 cost or 4 cost character (upper tier characters) that consistently match the abilities of these new characters being released in the Dynasty packs.

In short, my characters are outclassed in their weight class versus what Lion and Crane keep having access to. (this isn't based solely on opinion, but being argued through the lens of objectivity by other posters on various threads)

But as I stated in my earlier post, the amount of 'power' (or abilities, which is what I was attempting to refer to) is just unmatched by the characters available to my Dragon deck (and to a degree my Phoenix deck). Quite cut and dry if I can say so.

And yes, the Stone of Sorrows is quite lethal. I don't think that I or anyone else has argued otherwise. This is an Attachment, though; which means it can more easily be removed through the various attachment removal cards, as well as the new Crane ' cut off the Dragon character at the knees and remove all of his/her attachments' card.

6 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Other than the Clan champion (of which every Clan has a similar, overly powerful character in most instances)

The Unicorn begs to differ.

14 hours ago, Shosur0 said:

Lion character is nuts. What did the Crane get? Must have missed that.

14 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

5 fate, 2/6. Discard the favor: draw 3 cards, events cost 2 less for you to play this conflict.

(If we're talking about the Crane favor-discarding guy, I mean.)

Yup, that's the character.

Secondly, it is not that difficult for Crane or Lion to gain the Imperial Favor. This is a point that many posters have argued over and over again, on various threads. As a result, these newly released character cards are doubling down on Lion and Crane having access to the Imperial Favor more commonly than, say, the other Clans; which only heightens the abilities of these new characters even more.

? You are arguing that one clan which is strong militarily and weak politically and a second clan which is strong politically and weak militarily have an advantage getting the favour over clans that are more evenly matched?

You are arguing that players won't use keepers or cheap peeps to not attack defend to prevent the opposing side getting the favour when these cards are in play?

You are assuming people won't cloud the mind these peeps or other pkill

You are assuming , from 2 packs, that only lion and crane will have a 5 cost char who discards the favour for a strong ability whereas I think it looks as though every clan will gain the same with one per pack.

I think your logic sucks. Sorry.

Lets look as some practical scenarios

One of the 5 cost peeps appears in the province and oppo uses almost all fate to buy with only 1 spare, no one has favor

- i buy 2 peeps and try and take the favour so he cannot use his ability

One of the 5 cost peeps appears in the province and oppo uses almost all fate to buy with only 1 spare, oppo has favour

- I try to cloud the mind peep, or set up ns or ics or woftc and if I cant do those buy more peeps take the favour this turn (so he only gets to fire the event once)

One of the 5 cost peeps appears in the province and oppo does not buy but gets peeps to go for the favour

- I let a province (or 2) go pop and send all (almost all) my force to the 5 cost peep province to break it

But no. Why not instead pretend the game is broken and there are no ways to game round these (and the other clan champions).

10 minutes ago, Matrim said:

? You are arguing that one clan which is strong militarily and weak politically and a second clan which is strong politically and weak militarily have an advantage getting the favour over clans that are more evenly matched?

You are arguing that players won't use keepers or cheap peeps to not attack defend to prevent the opposing side getting the favour when these cards are in play?

You are assuming people won't cloud the mind these peeps or other pkill

You are assuming , from 2 packs, that only lion and crane will have a 5 cost char who discards the favour for a strong ability whereas I think it looks as though every clan will gain the same with one per pack.

I think your logic sucks. Sorry.

The Dragon's 'discard the favor' character is a 2-cost monk. He's not good. Granted, we could also get a good or great 5 coster with a favor discard ability, but I'm starting to doubt it. We shall see.

But the 5 cost favour discard is conditional and is NOT ALWAYS GOOD. If the Dragon get a 5 cost char who does not need to discard the favour then you are potentially doing BETTER than the clans the op was moaning about (caveat - not havng seen the cards the 5 cost non-favour discard might equally suck or it might be a favour discard and suck or not suck - who knows but with a 6 week release schedule we will find out soon so why the 'oh no other clans have a card. We are going to get a card but we dont know what it is yet so i will assume it will be worse then those cards. Woe is me')

My point is that you can play around all the 5 cost chars and the favour discard ones more than normal. I don't particularly like them myself for that reason. Of all the 5 costers so far the only two I hate seeing are the Crab and Phoenix champions. The others I can deal with (or have my own dealt with).

All clans have ways to get and keep the favor, there just wasn't any real reason to do that in a core only environment. Now the favor carries more importance and some clans can get it easier than others....

I think the problem I have with the new Lion 5 fate character is that it slots into an already existing strong archetype and makes it even stronger. We've already seen what Spiritcaller can do without IU. Instead of worrying about a Lion player just brining in one threat, you now have to worry about them flooding the board with ridiculous chains, if they have the favor. Spiritcaller to get IU to reveal face down and bring in Toturi and LPB. IU to bring in Toturi and Spiritcaller to get LPB. You end up with a revolving door that can just keep getting all their best people over and over again.........throw Charge in the mix. And again this isn't even looking at the character's almost clan champ level stats with both the Bushi and Courtier trait, which is a distinct advantage over a character that does not possess both...........at least until we see more cards that care about different traits.

Sure it's all dependent on having the favor so their will be an increased importance on getting and keeping the favor, which I think is overall a good thing to dig deeper into the design space. However, if a clan(s) continually struggles with getting the favor, then it could be a very bad thing.

It's unclear if this is roasting smores over a fire or just straight pouring gas on it.

1 hour ago, LordBlunt said:

Yup, that's the character.

Secondly, it is not that difficult for Crane or Lion to gain the Imperial Favor. This is a point that many posters have argued over and over again, on various threads. As a result, these newly released character cards are doubling down on Lion and Crane having access to the Imperial Favor more commonly than, say, the other Clans; which only heightens the abilities of these new characters even more.

Crane and Lion having easier access to the IA than Phoenix, really?

I won't deny that Lion is at the top of cards quality in the Imperial cycle currently. But, I'd argue that Phoenix is there too, and above Crane.

2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Would a good Lion player bring IU out against Yokuni if Lion didn't control the favor? Probably not, unless they had no other choice.

Having both the bushi and courier keywords should not be overlooked and the ability is strong with or without FGG or Spiritcaller in play. I think you're underselling it a bit.

I was asked about an ability that would match new lion guy. Yokunis ability has a potential to surpass it.

Ya I might be underselling it a bit but I don't feel that 'sacrifice favor' characters will be very meta defining due to how conditional they are and the inbuild counterplay in their abilities. If you do not have the favour he is just a 4 drop with blank text box. Not to mention how restrictive the gaining of the favor is.

Lastly I was pretty exact - without for greater glory it is a mere stat boost, a strong one but not really stronger than ambush or cavalry reserves. If these cards didn't break the game while working 100% of the time I don't think the new guy will.

1 minute ago, Matrim said:

But the 5 cost favour discard is conditional and is NOT ALWAYS GOOD. If the Dragon get a 5 cost char who does not need to discard the favour then you are potentially doing BETTER than the clans the op was moaning about (caveat - not havng seen the cards the 5 cost non-favour discard might equally suck or it might be a favour discard and suck or not suck - who knows but with a 6 week release schedule we will find out soon so why the 'oh no other clans have a card. We are going to get a card but we dont know what it is yet so i will assume it will be worse then those cards. Woe is me')

My point is that you can play around all the 5 cost chars and the favour discard ones more than normal. I don't particularly like them myself for that reason. Of all the 5 costers so far the only two I hate seeing are the Crab and Phoenix champions. The others I can deal with (or have my own dealt with).

Kadae and Taka both have potential long game impact if left alone. The Lion and Crane both have solid stats and if you control the favor can get downright ridiculous by causing an immediate and significant impact on the board which could potentially be leveraged into a long game play where all it takes is getting the favor action off one time and then it leads to that clan chaining favor control to repeat the effect over and over until their opponent breaks under the strain of such a strong effect.

Yes, Yokuni and keeping the favor away from them are a deterrent as are other cards and strategies..........but it sure puts a lot more pressure on you to evaluate board states accurately and punishes mistakes more. Power creep was coming eventually, but, it appears it's arrived a little quicker than some expected.

7 minutes ago, BordOne said:

I was asked about an ability that would match new lion guy. Yokunis ability has a potential to surpass it.

Ya I might be underselling it a bit but I don't feel that 'sacrifice favor' characters will be very meta defining due to how conditional they are and the inbuild counterplay in their abilities. If you do not have the favour he is just a 4 drop with blank text box. Not to mention how restrictive the gaining of the favor is.

Lastly I was pretty exact - without for greater glory it is a mere stat boost, a strong one but not really stronger than ambush or cavalry reserves. If these cards didn't break the game while working 100% of the time I don't think the new guy will.

Sure, without a FGG you aren't getting anything more than a big boost............but that gives the Lion a ton of redundancy in those kinds of things, but, in slightly different ways. Boosting a single character or bringing one character into a battle is something that an opponent can potentially handle by neutralizing the target. Now you have a card that presents a problem of splitting that extra skill across two characters, similar to Cav Reserves......which is hated out by event cancel, and there is far more off that then there are ways to turn off a character's ability. Additionally now you have Lion being able to effectively mimic a Unicorn trick, but potentially better. And simply calling him a 5 drop with a blank text still sells it short as I will again point out that Bushi and Courtier traits are important.

20 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Kadae and Taka both have potential long game impact if left alone. The Lion and Crane both have solid stats and if you control the favor can get downright ridiculous by causing an immediate and significant impact on the board which could potentially be leveraged into a long game play where all it takes is getting the favor action off one time and then it leads to that clan chaining favor control to repeat the effect over and over until their opponent breaks under the strain of such a strong effect.

Very well said.

The combination of Abilities coupled with high stars, all attributed under the umbrella of an easier to use (in theory and in practice) Clan just throws the power curve into a more lopsided placement, in comparison to other Clans.

20 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

... Power creep was coming eventually, but, it appears it's arrived a little quicker than some expected.

And this . This is what is most troubling for me.

15 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sure, without a FGG you aren't getting anything more than a big boost............but that gives the Lion a ton of redundancy in those kinds of things, but, in slightly different ways. Boosting a single character or bringing one character into a battle is something that an opponent can potentially handle by neutralizing the target. Now you have a card that presents a problem of splitting that extra skill across two characters, similar to Cav Reserves......which is hated out by event cancel, and there is far more off that then there are ways to turn off a character's ability. Additionally now you have Lion being able to effectively mimic a Unicorn trick, but potentially better. And simply calling him a 5 drop with a blank text still sells it short as I will again point out that Bushi and Courtier traits are important.

There are 3 cancels in the game currently, 2 of which are infaction. There are more ways to play around characters ability especially one with inbuild counter play - aside from not letting the opponent to get favor you can cloud the mind, send him home or bow him(even with water ring). Furthermore the ability is not very good on defence as compared to offense, so u can just force the opponent to defend with him or simply trade provinces.

bushi trait meh, courtier ok. i guess we will just wait, can't see how this guy is super broken and incomparable to anything in the game right now though.

I would also encourage you to wait with cries of powercreep until you actually get the chence to play with the card

Ikoma McChargePants is good not just because he is a highcosted character, I don't think anyone would every pay his 5 fate cost. He doesn't have to be played turn one, the power of this card is later. He can be charged in or revived with Spiritcaller. So if at ANY moment the Lion gets the favor they have the potential for an INSANE blow out, making Favor retention a priority for other clans.

Charge him in, pop his ability, flip and play something insane like Toturi and Honored General, For Greater Glory because of course , and so on. He can turn a single charge of 1 fate or a Spiritcaller activation into getting your easily 7-8 fate worth of SOLID bodies in no time flat. Even if you DONT FFG you still are winning that fight, and then filling the discard with more cards for Spiritcallers.

He is easily a 2-3 of in Lion, the potential for such insane cost to power ratio is insane. At least with Kakita Yoshi you have to spend 5 fate to play him most of the time.

1 hour ago, Matrim said:

? You are arguing that one clan which is strong militarily and weak politically and a second clan which is strong politically and weak militarily have an advantage getting the favour over clans that are more evenly matched?

Yes. Lion and Crane can most definitely gain the Imperial Favor more readily than can Dragon, for instance.

Please play some games and look at the outcomes.

1 hour ago, Matrim said:

You are assuming , from 2 packs, that only lion and crane will have a 5 cost char who discards the favour for a strong ability whereas I think it looks as though every clan will gain the same with one per pack.

I think your logic sucks. Sorry.

Yes, these 2 previewed characters that discard the favor have a powerful ability that borders on being bonkers... and basing an argument on ‘well, your Clan can grab the Favor too!’ is missing the point here.

Try not to grade the currently aforementioned 2 characters in the Dynasty packs in a vaccum. There are other existing characters from the Core packs as well that will serve to ‘enhance’ the abilities of these 2 Dynasty cards even more, given the level of synergy that their respective abilities bring to their Clans. (honestly, one would be foolish to make an argument in a vacuum away the existing characters in the game)

As it stands now, from all that I have seen and all that has been previewed, Lion and Crane characters are simply over powering. They will get to use their abilities at the very least once a game, and they will carry more “weight” than the abilities of other characters that currently exist, outside of what we know.

17 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Ikoma McChargePants is good not just because he is a highcosted character, I don't think anyone would every pay his 5 fate cost. He doesn't have to be played turn one, the power of this card is later. He can be charged in or revived with Spiritcaller. So if at ANY moment the Lion gets the favor they have the potential for an INSANE blow out, making Favor retention a priority for other clans.

Charge him in, pop his ability, flip and play something insane like Toturi and Honored General, For Greater Glory because of course , and so on. He can turn a single charge of 1 fate or a Spiritcaller activation into getting your easily 7-8 fate worth of SOLID bodies in no time flat. Even if you DONT FFG you still are winning that fight, and then filling the discard with more cards for Spiritcallers.

This.

Sorry, I’m not doing much other than quoting others.

Regarding the favour, I think people seriously underestimate the impact of luck on getting the favour on Round 1. Yes, sometimes there's a legitimate tactical battle around it. However, you're very dependent on your opening flop/hand here. If it's bad, you're liable to lose the round in terms of rings/conflicts and lose the favour. Then you get hit by Ikoma Ukiaji and it's the very definition of a snowball, luck-based win.

Yes, you can play an expensive 4 glory character, put fate on it and leave it standing to win the favour. Good luck winning that game, though.

How this effects overall dynamics and the meta is a more complex question, as of course such characters aren't particularly strong on Round 1 itself, or in a situation where you're the one who gets stuck behind on Round 1. However, making something game-winningly good in one circumstance and poor in another, just creates high variance luck-based game again, so I'm not a fan of it (and no, I wasn't in the group of people clamouring for more Favour interaction, before anyone makes any have cake and eat it points ).

One thing FFG did well was balance out who can achieve the favor. Unless you see players actively leaving characters out of the conflicts to use their Glory for the favor, most times it just goes to who won most rings. Every clan is situated to win rings. Only Unicorn, for their general weakness, could claim otherwise.

If any clan can get the favor easier than any other it has to do with 2 things. 1) Are they Keeper Role. Keeper Initiates are no secret when it comes to stealing the favor. Currently Crab, Lion, Phoenix, and Unicorn have Keeper roles allowing them to utilize Keeper Initiates for a strong grab at the favor. 2) Do they have high Glory. Lion certainly have high glory, as do Crane and Phoenix. This gives a slight edge towards gaining the favor - but does require leaving one of these higher glory characters ready at the end of the turn which means they either didn't use them in combat, or they went for ring of water - both options that give you an advantage through the turn.

While these effects are powerful I trust we'll see strong effects for all clans on any 5 cost card. Unless its Unicorn... FFG doesn't seem to like them

Unicorn player here (obviously). I have the favor more often than not. If I don't claim it first turn, I definitely have it second turn. And I doubt I'm an outlier here. So, all this talk of Unicorn not being able to get/keep the favor is just utter nonsense.

I'm not disagreeing that the favour can be won by either side. It's the early game swing that concerns me. Favour often goes to the person who had the better start, which is often down to luck as much as skill (skill generally has more impact as the game continues).

IF someone is using something like Lion McLion Face then it can get out of hand on the 2nd turn. That's my main issue really. I'm not even sure most of the favour-dependent cards will be included in many decks in general, due to consistency issues, 1st turn weaknesses, and no favour guarantee. As others have mentioned Lion McLion Face is somewhat easier to use as he can be brought back from the dead on turns when you do have favour. And when you do use him it's a huge swing.