Maybe I should add a further information: I play competitively most of the time. Thus, my experience is restricted to competitive gamers (mostly).

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Depends on your definitions of "classic tabletop" and "laid-back".

Putting much thought into lists in general I find a very uptight approach to gaming-games. Take your favorite models, see how many points you have left. Then see what tactical role is obviously lacking, and try to take something to balance that out with the points you've got left over. That's it for list building for me, in every game I play. Model painting drives the list, not the other way around. I learned that the hard way, I've had too many game systems or factions yank the rug out from under me over the years.

I also don't consider, for example, Warmachine, to be a classic tabletop game. What with its pre-printed stat cards and what have you.

I'm the SAME way man! I see what needs painting. I paint it. I come up with a list that can support it. Fun ensues.

I think painting makes ALL the difference for me. Before IA, I never painted anything. Now I love painting my figures.

6 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Actually, at the moment, I'd rate Warmachine as my number one example for a classic tabletop game.

Yeah, Warmachine gamers drove me away with how finicky they were about every little millimeter of movement and range. As if that would really decide the outcome of a game. They use empty bases with names written on them. But my fully painted Warmachine models on the "wrong size" scratch built diorama bases made them angry. The Age of Sigmar crowd seems to be the same way. They want to squeeze every last 1/8th inch advantage out of every move. Tactics in that game has devolved into choosing which poses of the same troop type to place where. A couple of the local 40k guys are like that but they are pretty much drowned out and ignored/tolerated by the gregarious and huge 40k club. In short your odds of playing one of the jerks in the store is low since there are so many 40kers.

The 40k players don't care about every single 1/4 inch of movement, if a model gets knocked over you just pick it up, etc. Ditto the DBA, D6 Star Wars, Frostgrave, Mordheim, Dragon Rampant, and the increasingly rare Warhammer Fantasy Battles players. If we cared about that level of simulation accuracy we'd be using a computer game. For that matter if we cared about that level of a battle of wits, we'd play chess.

The IA players around me (aside from my own gaming group) seem to be more like the Warmachine players. They are obsessed with the win, and don't seem to understand the difference between a hobby game like IA, and a Rubix Cube.

Edit: Back to the topic of the thread....

I suspect FFG won't support a tournament scene for Legion, much as they allegedly don't support a casual game for X-Wing. And therein will lie the big difference.

6 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Maybe I should add a further information: I play competitively most of the time. Thus, my experience is restricted to competitive gamers (mostly).

That's probably why you rate Warmahordes as the #1 classic wargame. It was and is pushed as the competitive miniatures game. I will always think of it as the Johnny Come Lately though. Now DBA, there's a classic wargame.

I got with together with my game group over this past weekend to play a quick-round of Skirmish, as it was a part of the box that they weren't exposed to after playing a 8 month long campaign. After showing them how it all worked, they were hooked. What they cited really digging about it was how quick it was to pick up, seeing the cool combination between figures and cards. I expect that Skirmish will become a part of our regular game rotation before we commit to beginning a new campaign down the road.

7 minutes ago, Kunitzu San said:

I got with together with my game group over this past weekend to play a quick-round of Skirmish, as it was a part of the box that they weren't exposed to after playing a 8 month long campaign. After showing them how it all worked, they were hooked. What they cited really digging about it was how quick it was to pick up, seeing the cool combination between figures and cards. I expect that Skirmish will become a part of our regular game rotation before we commit to beginning a new campaign down the road.

Yeah. We thought we'd be campaign players too. But we're all dads and stuff. So it become problematic to find a reliable Imperial player for campaign, hence we went the other route as well.

On 11/16/2017 at 2:00 PM, TauntaunScout said:

I suspect FFG won't support a tournament scene for Legion, much as they allegedly don't support a casual game for X-Wing. And therein will lie the big difference.

What makes you think they won't support an Organized Play scene? They do for every other minis game and every other game that could support it (ie not Rebellion, Twilight Imperium, et al). I'm actually looking forward to the Legion OP scene.

3 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

What makes you think they won't support an Organized Play scene? They do for every other minis game and every other game that could support it (ie not Rebellion, Twilight Imperium, et al). I'm actually looking forward to the Legion OP scene.

Because of the X-Wing thing I cited above. Not that I know anything first had about X-Wing, I'd never touch it with a 10 foot pole. But there are two types of play, competitive and casual, and the IA forum says that only one type of play is supported for their biggest Star Wars game. If you already have two SW tournament scenes why add a third?

Given the imprecise nature of games played on a model railroad setup (sans railroad) with 50ish guys you made yourself, the last 20 years has seen a real decrease in the value placed on tournaments for them. The alternatives for a competition are too many and too superior. It is a poor medium for proving who is best.

Legion puts a lot of work on the organizer, because practically the organizer (and not FFG) needs to provide/scrounge the terrains for a tournament. The larger the number of players, the more terrains needed.

Feels to me much more work than X-Wing, Armada, or even Imperial Assault.

18 hours ago, a1bert said:

Legion puts a lot of work on the organizer, because practically the organizer (and not FFG) needs to provide/scrounge the terrains for a tournament. The larger the number of players, the more terrains needed.

Feels to me much more work than X-Wing, Armada, or even Imperial Assault.

Absolutely agreed. But this is the case for almost all classic tabletop games. I think the tabletop tournament scene got used to that.

18 hours ago, a1bert said:

Legion puts a lot of work on the organizer, because practically the organizer (and not FFG) needs to provide/scrounge the terrains for a tournament. The larger the number of players, the more terrains needed.

Feels to me much more work than X-Wing, Armada, or even Imperial Assault.

That's the same thing for Runewars and there are still Quartely tournament kits. FFG supports it. I fail to see how it would be different for Legion.

Just from their Star Wars lines, they are making OP kits for X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Star Wars LCG and Star Wars Destiny; so basically every games except Rebellion (which is more like a traditionnal Boardgame) and their RPGs. You can bet that there will be OP kits for Legion too when it will come out.

On 16/11/2017 at 3:00 PM, TauntaunScout said:

I suspect FFG won't support a tournament scene for Legion, much as they allegedly don't support a casual game for X-Wing. And therein will lie the big difference.

They actually do support a casual game for X-Wing. In a lot of their Large base ship, there is scenarios to play casually. They also made a tool called Mission Control where players can go and share their custom made missions (https://tools.fantasyflightgames.com/xwing/). They also posted articles about playing the game more casually.

1 hour ago, DerBaer said:

Absolutely agreed. But this is the case for almost all classic tabletop games. I think the tabletop tournament scene got used to that.

Well that's good they presumably will then.

Still, it would seem from my perspective, that the wargame tournament scene in general has taken a huge hit in numbers since the early 90's. Might be regional though.

28 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Well that's good they presumably will then.

Still, it would seem from my perspective, that the wargame tournament scene in general has taken a huge hit in numbers since the early 90's. Might be regional though.

None of the large gaming shops hold tournaments like this in my city. In fact, one got rid of the space because people were stealing terrain from the area.

I think this game will attract those that want an star wars army game and I also believe it will get OP prize support, but I don't see the community getting very large where I am. We already have a massive X-wing community and Armada (including the world champ). I could see FFG hosting an event at Worlds, because why not? It's all about marketing and what better group to catch then the ones who already are there for Star Wars gaming?

1 hour ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

It's all about marketing and what better group to catch then the ones who already are there for Star Wars gaming?

The ones that still have the free time and money to pursue it. There is already a problem with double-booked tournaments at every con I've ever been to.

The first part is very true. I just don't see it catching on that way in locales. They'll make tournament packs available (how do you get those anyways?) but I don't forsee them sending reps to stores to run stuff and get it going.

7 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

The ones that still have the free time and money to pursue it. There is already a problem with double-booked tournaments at every con I've ever been to.

The first part is very true. I just don't see it catching on that way in locales. They'll make tournament packs available (how do you get those anyways?) but I don't forsee them sending reps to stores to run stuff and get it going.

Yeah I'm unmarried with no kids and a good income and I found playing the X-wing and IA tournament scene too much. I decided to focus on the more civilized star wars game.

As for tournament packs, the stores order them from the distributor. Speaking from experience, it takes one or more eager people to get these tournaments going and keep them running. I think as long as a store gets their money back from buying the kit (I know they cost about $15 CAN), they'll host a tournament, but it definitely appears they need someone to push them.

51 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Yeah I'm unmarried with no kids and a good income and I found playing the X-wing and IA tournament scene too much. I decided to focus on the more civilized star wars game.

As for tournament packs, the stores order them from the distributor. Speaking from experience, it takes one or more eager people to get these tournaments going and keep them running. I think as long as a store gets their money back from buying the kit (I know they cost about $15 CAN), they'll host a tournament, but it definitely appears they need someone to push them.

I think the final price point will be a huge deciding factor. If you can really play out of the box, great. If it has models to run some intro scenarios but you need two hardback books and 3x the models that come in the starter to run a "real" size game that will be a major blow to winning over people from other wargames, if they've already invested like that in something else.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

They'll make tournament packs available (how do you get those anyways?) but I don't forsee them sending reps to stores to run stuff and get it going.

Organized Play kits can be ordered by any store from their distributor. Order must generally be placed a couple of months in advance though. They cost 20$ CAN and must be organized by either the store or a community member. FFG never send reps to stores to run stuff, it is done internally generally by the player that organized it. You have Quarterly kits and Store Championship (once a year and cost more, I think 60$CAN if I remember correctly). Then Regionals, Nationals and World. World is pretty much the only tournament with organizer from FFG since it is happening in their quarters in Minesota.

28 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

I think the final price point will be a huge deciding factor. If you can really play out of the box, great. If it has models to run some intro scenarios but you need two hardback books and 3x the models that come in the starter to run a "real" size game that will be a major blow to winning over people from other wargames, if they've already invested like that in something else.

Following FFG presedence (X-Wing, Armada, Destiny), you will have enough to play out of the box (what they used to run demos during Gencon), but not enough to make a tournament ready build. You'll have to buy expensions to fill it up.

7 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Following FFG presedence (X-Wing, Armada, Destiny), you will have enough to play out of the box (what they used to run demos during Gencon), but not enough to make a tournament ready build. You'll have to buy expensions to fill it up.

Tournament "ready" is not the same thing as tournament "legal" depending on who is using the term. If you have legal sized armies out of the box I consider that complete. If it's legal for tournaments, it's ready for tournaments. Last time I looked at an X-Wing core set though it only had 2 ships so I assume that wasn't tournament legal fleets!

By comparison to SW:IA, Warhammer 40k uses 1,000-2,000 point games for example. But boxed starter sets throughout the various editions (priced at roughly $110) have typically contained roughly 450-750 points per side of two factions and will require buying a sourcebook to for each of them to get the rules to expand those factions. If it is like that, it will be a tough hill to climb around here.

IA however has all the rules you need to go and 3 complete factions if you sue cardboard tokens in friendly games. To go to tournament you could play with just the plastic in the box but mercs couldn't be fielded as a "pure" faction without buying a $10 IG-88, not a hefty buy-in considering.

Now the maps you need for IA tournaments are another subject. But since terrain isn't free for typical gaming-games either, I see that as a wash.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Tournament "ready" is not the same thing as tournament "legal" depending on who is using the term. If you have legal sized armies out of the box I consider that complete. If it's legal for tournaments, it's ready for tournaments. Last time I looked at an X-Wing core set though it only had 2 ships so I assume that wasn't tournament legal fleets!

Sorry for the confusion, it means pretty much the same thing to me.

In X-Wing, the standard tournament format is 100 pts; in a core set you have enough for maybe 35 pts.

In Armada, the standard tournament format is 400 pts (300pts when the game came out); in a core set you have enough for maybe 150 pts.

In Destiny, the standard tournament format is 30 pts and 30 cards deck; in the starters you have around 20 pts and 20 cards (2-player game set has 30 pts (excluding Phasma errata...) but still 20 cards.)

They are technically legal, because there is no rules preventing you to bring less than the required points (there was a player once in a X-Wing Regional in Australia who brought only one ship: Soontir Fel for 35pts. He managed to win one game I think), but they are certainly not ready for the beating they will get.

From what I heard for Legion, the standard tournament format will be 1000 pts and there is enough for 3-400 pts in the core box.

RC: Sounds like we are on the same page then. I have heard folks say you aren't "tournament ready" unless you have all the wing dings and upgrades and stuff. Which I disagree with. If you have 40 painted points you're ready for skirmish, in my way of thinking.

If the core Legion set has less than maybe 75% of the forces you need to play a "real" game, whatever that is, I can't see it catching on here. A diehard SW minis junkie like me might break down and paint up the core set plus a personal army in a spate of intense optimism/denial. Around me, we have a store with a really solid 40k day, a really solid historicals night, and a few games like X-Wing/Warmahordes/etc. that have an intermittent presence. A little further away, there's a GW store. Plus I have my own weekly gaming group which plays a little bit of everything.

For Legion (or any other game) to really break into that, I am concerned. I was easy to get my friends playing SW: IA Skirmish and I can paint armies for all and sundry to use. Since an "army" is like 8 models. I don't plan on extensively using the iA figures from the core set + IG, so there are 3 loaner armies right there!

Then again, modelling drives the game. So I cold see myself getting sucked in for the purpose of making my own crazy creations. Space pirates in KISS themed stormtrooper armor. Rebel troops dressed in my high school colors. Etc. etc. etc.

3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

RC: Sounds like we are on the same page then. I have heard folks say you aren't "tournament ready" unless you have all the wing dings and upgrades and stuff. Which I disagree with. If you have 40 painted points you're ready for skirmish, in my way of thinking.

Oh god, I hate this kind of players, the kind of player that think that if it's not broken, it's not worth taking. My philosophy is play what you want to play, what you think you'll have the most fun during the day. Experiment and forget about all those netlists.