Had this question come up, and no idea if I am right or wrong.

I know attack ranged is determined by if the range ruler is hitting cardboard to cardboard. Here is my question show in the picture below.
Opponent's ruler is "on" his ship's cardboard, but is not "on" my ship's cardboard, but still touching my cardboard using the plastic base on my ship to hold it it up. So it is "cardboard" to "cardboard" but I'm of the understanding that it needs to be "with-in" range, not "at" range.

I said it wasn't a legal shot, he said it was. TO didn't know so we flipped a coin toss which I won. But in interest of ensuring that we both know for next time, what is the consensus?

Edit: My ship is the ISD, his ship is the Arq. Arq is trying to shoot my ISD.

If the ruler moved to get "on" my cardboard, then it would fall "off" his cardboard and then only just be touching it rather than being "on" it.

If the ruler is definitely touching one base and overlapping another then surely there must be some microscopic way of shifting the ruler slightly further so it does overlap both. Now if the ruler was just touching both bases then I can accept it as being out of range but your example didn't have this - your ruler was too long to fit in the gap so I would say it is in range.

Having said this it is obviously very marginal and I fully support a TO deciding to roll off for it. If you call over a judge and can't sway him with your logic then you have to take his decision.

Who was shooting who? If the Arq (?) It would be obstructed and thus no shot. If the ISD then the Arq is not in its front arc anyway. So no shot.

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:07 AM, Ginkapo said:

Who was shooting who? If the Arq (?) It would be obstructed and thus no shot. If the ISD then the Arq is not in its front arc anyway. So no shot.

The Arquitens is rear on to the camera so it is a flank shot with 3 (now 2) red dice.

Updated my original post with more info to clarify.

To Mad Cat: Actually if he tried to move that ruler any further over, it would then be resting on his plastic base touching his cardboard but not "on" it, and then his ruler would then be "on" my cardboard (instead of just touching it). That's why we couldn't agree, because then at that point, his ruler isn't be ranged from his hull zone but from outside of it.

To Ginkapo: It was the Arq shooting at the ISD, clear and unobstructed side of Arq to front of ISD.

If the range ruler can't fit between the ship cardboards then it must be in range cardboard to cardboard.

Just check to see who has the longest range ruler or find another range ruler that is longer and your problems solved :-)

Ha!

Still doesn't answer the overlying question though.

It’s a bit hard to tell from the pic but I would’ve ruled it in range if I were the TO. But, this would’ve been my test: if the plastic bases weren’t there, would the range ruler fall to the play mat or would one end be supported by a ship card? If both ends would’ve fallen to the play mat then out of range. If one end would’ve been supported then in range. If it’s that close, I will usually err on the side of shooting because no shooting is BORRRRIIIINNNGGGGG haha.

I think the closest you're going to find to guidance on this is going to be based on general consistency within the ruleset.

"The lines on the ruler that divide two adjacent bands always count as part of the band closest to the bottom of
the ruler." (RRG 9 RANGE AND DISTANCE)

"A firing arc includes the width of the firing arc lines that border it." (RRG 6 FIRING ARC)

These are the only two cases I know if in the RRG that talk about what to do when a measurement falls right on the line, and both err on the side of "permissive." As a result, my personal rule of thumb is generally that, if it's too close to call, it's in range/arc/whatever, because shooting is more fun than not shooting .

That said, if it's a big game in a tourney and a critical situation, I'll ask the Marshal's opinion any time we don't both agree on a measurement. And, as with everything else, the Marshal's call stands. It's left to him exactly how to make calls like this, but it is very clear that the Marshal's call is final.

lol @ the flagship token jammed into the ISD.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

lol @ the flagship token jammed into the ISD.

Thats one of the turn counters I think

42 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Thats one of the turn counters I think

No. It is a flagship token but the big one. Those we put on the card, not the ships.

To WGN: If my plastic base wasn't there to hold it up, it WOULD fall to the mat. The only reason he could claim a shot, was because my plastic base was holding it up. But there was no gap showing plastic.
But that begs the question is attack range "With-in" or is it "At". There is no ruling in the rulebook.

Although if we go by how squadrons work, you can attack another squadron "at" distance 1, and most other abilities (like Snipe and Intel) work at the "at" ranges. However not everything that is true or ships is true for squadrons and the reverse.

To Ard: Except this was "past" the range band, not "with-in" it. But granted it was at "at" range.
Wasn't an issue with firing arcs, the arc was in the clear. But I can see how it can relate.

And yes, the TO didn't know the exact ruling so he called for a coin toss to determine. But i promised my opponent I would take this to the rule fourms so we could all be informed for the future.

I put big flagship token on my big ships, because dammit, Go big or go home! ISD's need a large token, not some tiny one!


After doing some reading about other abilities and thinking it over, I'm starting to get swayed towards the fact that attack range is "at" and not "with-in". Because that is how squadrons work.

However without a clear ruling from FFG stating that, you would have a hard time conveying that belief to many other players in the Armada community as many play by the "with-in" rule. I'll send an email, but doubtful to hear an answer anytime soon.

But now this ALSO begs the question, is now "Medium" range and "Close" considered to be "with-in" range or also considered "at" range? This changes how I've been playing for the last year and everyone else I've played with as we've always played "with-in" range for those ranges, not "at".

17 minutes ago, Karneck said:

But now this ALSO begs the question, is now "Medium" range and "Close" considered to be "with-in" range or also considered "at" range? This changes how I've been playing for the last year and everyone else I've played with.

I mean, if your question was just "at" vs "within," that's simple: it's "at."

"If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone." (RRG 2 ATTACK)

The target hull zone doesn't have to be entirely inside of the range band in question, which is what "within" entails.

But that's not the scenario you're describing: you're just describing a very close measurement. There is no "at" vs "within" at play here, only a discrete question of whether or not the range band touches the closest points of the two hull zones (within arc, of course).

Holy crap, everybody in my region has been playing it wrong then.

This also mean's that "medium" and "close" ranges work at the "at" range as well. This is game changing for my play at least.

1 hour ago, Karneck said:

Holy crap, everybody in my region has been playing it wrong then.

This also mean's that "medium" and "close" ranges work at the "at" range as well. This is game changing for my play at least.

If you played within you have been playing the most boring and hard games ever!

Actually as long as each range is independent if you followed the rules strictly I doubt you ever fired. As long as any hull zone was between two ranges it couldn't be within any of them. Lol.

If the ends of the ruler were touching the cardboard tokens on both ships, then it's at range, and the shot is legit....at least that is how I've always played.

The rule in question is, effectivly:

• The lines on the ruler that divide two adjacent bands always count as part of the band closest to the bottom of the ruler.

• The following terms are used when discussing range and distance:

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band



This doesn't seem to be so much a rules question as it is an interpretation of physics .

We know that the Line is inclusive of the lower potion of the ruler. If you measure a range, and the only part that touches the enemy zone is the line on the range ruler, you are only at the closer of the two bordering ranges, not the further ... But that, of course, only counts when there is a line in question.

So when you're boiling down to, effectively, the question of "is touching good enough to measure to , or do you need to overlap?" , that becomes a more complex question the more you drill down. Colloquial english says "yes"... Hardcore particle physics says "maybe/yes/no". Quantum Physics says YeNoS. Which, of course, doesn't help us

For me, err on the side of caution. Like quantum physics, with how hamfisted we all are, the very act of attempting to measure the situation is going to bump one or both of the ships out of position - probably to the expansion - and thus, have changed what we intended to measure...

If I had to be absolutely hardcore , then I'd turn around and say you need to be inside the designated range band. If you're only touching, by virtue, you are not inside , you are adjacent .

Knew i could count on you Dras to verbalize my thoughts into something that makes sense.

If it would drop between the ship chips (sans plastic base) then no, not in range. Just as if a ship ends its movement touching, but not having overlapped, another ship isn't a ramming situation.

If the range ruler is touching your cardboard and can't drop between the cardboards but rests on your opponents cardboard then there must be some overlap which would mean his ship is "at" range and the attack should be allowed. Remember to be "within" range the entirety of the ship base would have to be within the range band as per the RRG, to be at range only part of the target has to be within the range band.

If it could drop between the two cardboards while still touching both I would say that it is not "at" range but "beyond" because no part of its cardboard would be within the range band as per the RRG.

As mentioned, shot was going from Arq to the ISD.

Ruler was bearly resting on top of his ship cardboard.

Then resting the other end of the ruler on my ISD's plastic base, he pushed it into the side of it's cardboard, but not resting on top.

So it was cardboard to cardboard, but only one end was resting on top of cardboard.

If the plastic wasn't there to hold it up, it would fall down.

4 hours ago, Karneck said:

As mentioned, shot was going from Arq to the ISD.

Ruler was bearly resting on top of his ship cardboard.

Then resting the other end of the ruler on my ISD's plastic base, he pushed it into the side of it's cardboard, but not resting on top.

So it was cardboard to cardboard, but only one end was resting on top of cardboard.

If the plastic wasn't there to hold it up, it would fall down.

So there was a infantesimal gap between the ruler and the base. No shot.

Thats the clearest you have written it so far.

What he is saying is : The range ruler is resting on the plastic base, but only touching the cardboard on one of them. (there is a plastic lip on most bases.)

Which means the target is out of range.

Page 7 of the RRG : When measuring firing arc, range or distance, ignore the squadrons activation slider, and ships shield dials, and the plastic portions of the base that frame the shield dial.

Which I have always read as : Cardboard is the ship for range / arc purposes, not any part of the plastic base.