I think the best idea for a TLT nerf is to just make crits count as misses. Only count hits. Requiring focus would break too many builds, which shouldn't be necessary to fix this.

1 hour ago, Joe Censored said:

I think the best idea for a TLT nerf is to just make crits count as misses. Only count hits. Requiring focus would break too many builds, which shouldn't be necessary to fix this.

Too simple, elegant and logical to be used.

Changing secondary turrets to behave like primary turrets is all the change that is needed in my opinion.

It doesn't errata any cards which is a really important aspect, but interestingly it nerfs TLT whilst conversely helping the other turrets.

Like in most other games, if something in X-wing receives a heavy nerf, the initial reaction is 'WTH CAN'T USE THAT ANYMORE' everyone gets their pants in a twist and then later realise its better for the game in general. Some get thrown in the 'not worth it' basket (Zuckuss), some get thrown in the 'its not how I liked it, but its still good' basket (TIE/x7). Either way it causes a huge ruckus (which most of the time is an overreaction) and then largely gets forgotten about.

But is nerfing TLT into the ground the best option for the game? Or is making all the other turrets perform better, and therefore providing more options for list building the better way to go?

Having range bonuses active on Secondary turrets means, Dorsal turret becomes much useful at range 1 and has a benefit over/equal to a PWT. Synced turret has more incentive to use it as intended through the ships firing arc. Ion Cannon Turret gets an increased chance to trigger its control mechanism at R1 (ICT was largely considered too inconsistent to be worth it outside of the bombmeta). Autoblaster turret is a double edged sword, it gives you more opportunity to get hits, but also makes the filthy 'Auto-corrector' combo less useful. TLT works as intended in the R2 band (which is fair imo) but loses its edge at R3, making autothrusters more useful in the process. Blaster turret unfortunately is still kinda rubbish, but what can I say..

I think this a much better option for the game in general. I personally think the issue with TLT right now; in its current state, is its so much better than the other turrets there is little incentive to use anything else. Miranda and the Ghost are particularly strong with it, but maybe they are issues that can be addressed individually. I don't think its a real problem on any other ship. It can be annoying in a quad spam list, but I honestly haven't seen lists like that in years.

The best part about this change is purely a rules change, no hard errata needed. If it works and balances TLT's out somewhat, then all is well. If not, they still have the option to individually nerf TLT down the track. With a straight up hard errata, there is a 50% chance that this upgrade's return on investment becomes too low and never gets used again. 6pts is a huge cost in the grand scheme of things, and you should get a strong card for that point investment. With a heavy nerf the TLT could go from world champ to Luke Skywalker crew card, and I don't think anybody really wants that.

But...but us Imperials JUST got the TLT

New TLT

Range 2 only, 3 attack

Attack (focus) : This attack cannot be modified. If you hit, you may make a second attack on the same ship only if you have a Target Lock on it.

OK we have reached a consensus based on 3 pages. How much should this pile of junk cost? And when can I play fat turrets again? I miss playing unkillable Han.

Well, on the basis that allowing bumping and stress counterplay scared off x7 defenders without altering their math one bit, sure, why not?

Just note this hurts generic TLT spam less than the heavily armed Ace when you do it... but perhaps that's a good thing, too.

I'm so glad none of you are game designers.

What if we just made TLT unique. There's nothing abusive about it if only one ship per squad can have it.

2 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I'm so glad none of you are game designers.

What if we just made TLT unique. There's nothing abusive about it if only one ship per squad can have it.

kanan wookie, dash miranda, rey miranda, dengar nym, etc. all agree.

Just now, hawk32 said:

kanan wookie, dash miranda, rey miranda, dengar nym, etc. all agree.

All good, but none of them are abusive or oppressive.

1 minute ago, StriderZessei said:

All good, but none of them are abusive or oppressive.

Tell me about all those abusive lists that are solved by making it unique.

Just now, hawk32 said:

Tell me about all those abusive lists that are solved by making it unique.

I don't have to. Everyone is talking about different ways to nerf it when in reality, it's fine. The only real issue is the monotony of fighting Quad TLT Aggressors or the like.

The majority of meta lists that commonly use TLTs have just been nerfed. No more Adv. SLAM, Genius/Bomblet is no longer a thing all game, and Jumpmasters have been decisively trimmed. Let's let the dust settle before clamoring for "MOAR NERFSES."

17 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I'm so glad none of you are game designers.

What if we just made TLT unique. There's nothing abusive about it if only one ship per squad can have it.

4 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I don't have to.

Good chat.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

Tell me about all those abusive lists that are solved by making it unique.

Good chat.

If YOU'RE the one who wants to see something nerfed, YOU'RE the one who needs to provide the evidence as to why. With the prosecution lies the responsibility.

But no, you're just going to take my words out of context and strut like you've won some moral victory.

But if you want to go down this route, take my earlier post about "abusive" and replace it with "OP." And then YOU tell ME why TLT needs nerfing.

9 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

If YOU'RE the one who wants to see something nerfed, YOU'RE the one who needs to provide the evidence as to why. With the prosecution lies the responsibility.

But no, you're just going to take my words out of context and strut like you've won some moral victory.

But if you want to go down this route, take my earlier post about "abusive" and replace it with "OP." And then YOU tell ME why TLT needs nerfing.

You'll have to point out where I proposed nerfing TLT. You, on the other hand, did.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

You'll have to point out where I proposed nerfing TLT. You, on the other hand, did.

What I said was a counter-proposal. You may recall where I said:

22 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

The majority of meta lists that commonly use TLTs have just been nerfed. No more Adv. SLAM, Genius/Bomblet is no longer a thing all game, and Jumpmasters have been decisively trimmed. Let's let the dust settle before clamoring for "MOAR NERFSES."

On 10.11.2017 at 1:22 PM, RufusDaMan said:

All turrets should require a focus or Target lock.

Imagine, if you are shooting with and arc locked ship, you are shooting in front of you. No need to track your mark, aside from the flying you already do.

As a turret however, flying is out of your control and requires some compensation. Like a focus or a targeting computer...

Turrets are operated by a dedicated gunner.

The only pilot operated turret we have in the game is the variable arc turret of the Shadow Caster thus leading to it taking an action to turn.

Everyone has their own ideas on how how this should or shouldn't be nerfed.

I think that although some of the ideas in this thread are excellent, and some are trash, we just need to leave this one up to the game designers.

given that its a range 2-3 weapon, this probably doesn't do very much for it. I'd suggest making it auto convert crits to blanks.

I'll say this, TLT to me is only problems in multiples. 1 x Manageable, 2 x annoying, 3 x FFS, 4 x You are the worst type of human,

The Ghost shouldn't be allowed the TLT, the worst think about that is by the time it fire after combat everyone has depleted their tokens trying to live, also System slot with turret is annoying (not broken). so my chosen "Nerf" would like the problem of TLT be applied in multiples (we saw this with contract scout).

first adding the nerf we have recently seen on Mindlink.

*Max Two Per Squad*

If it still continues to be a pain after a period; apply this;

*Small Ship Only*

and if we still see problems with it (because Nym and his buddies), add this;

*Remove System Slot from Upgrade bar is available*

39 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

I'll say this, TLT to me is only problems in multiples. 1 x Manageable, 2 x annoying, 3 x FFS, 4 x You are the worst type of human,

The Ghost shouldn't be allowed the TLT, the worst think about that is by the time it fire after combat everyone has depleted their tokens trying to live, also System slot with turret is annoying (not broken). so my chosen "Nerf" would like the problem of TLT be applied in multiples (we saw this with contract scout).

first adding the nerf we have recently seen on Mindlink.

*Max Two Per Squad*

If it still continues to be a pain after a period; apply this;

*Small Ship Only*

and if we still see problems with it (because Nym and his buddies), add this;

*Remove System Slot from Upgrade bar is available*

Dosn't make sense.
Dosn't solve the problem.
Does nothing with Miranda or Nym.
TLT is still the single nobrainer turret which is stupidly better when all the other turrets.
Mindlink is a completely other story.

No.

5 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Dosn't make sense.
Dosn't solve the problem.
Does nothing with Miranda or Nym.
TLT is still the single nobrainer turret which is stupidly better when all the other turrets.
Mindlink is a completely other story.

No.

Funny think about opinions, they are that.

I believe it will, you don't. I believe it solves some of the problem with TLT.

Of course TLT outpaces the other turrets, it was the turret balance patch.

Demanders of a 0pt (and equivalent xwing patch) astromech, take note what happens when a single upgrade overwhelms the other options in the name of fixing a ship...

20 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

Funny think about opinions, they are that.

I believe it will, you don't. I believe it solves some of the problem with TLT.

Well, you are wrong cause your solution has a lot of flaws, one of it not being a solution.
1st We need a solution which changes TLT in a way that it is not the one turret. ATM taking anything but the TLT for a turret slot feels stupid in all but one cases and in that one case (Nym with auto corrector) it is still the better choice.
2nd Your Idea dosn't make sense for the fluff.
3rd Limiting TLT to two per list seems completely arbitrary. Why 2? Is 2 what you need for your favorite list? Two would end 4 TLT Y-wings/TIE-Aggressors but do nothing to Nym/Miranda etc. Now look up what are the most dominant lists in the meta and when tell me how limiting TLT to two would influence the top 10 archetypes!
http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

3 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Of course TLT outpaces the other turrets, it was the turret balance patch.

Demanders of a 0pt (and equivalent xwing patch) astromech, take note what happens when a single upgrade overwhelms the other options in the name of fixing a ship...

Thats right, the X-Wing needs Titles not Astromechs.

7 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Well, you are wrong cause your solution has a lot of flaws, one of it not being a solution.
1st We need a solution which changes TLT in a way that it is not the one turret. ATM taking anything but the TLT for a turret slot feels stupid in all but one cases and in that one case (Nym with auto corrector) it is still the better choice.
2nd Your Idea dosn't make sense for the fluff.
3rd Limiting TLT to two per list seems completely arbitrary. Why 2? Is 2 what you need for your favorite list? Two would end 4 TLT Y-wings/TIE-Aggressors but do nothing to Nym/Miranda etc. Now look up what are the most dominant lists in the meta and when tell me how limiting TLT to two would influence the top 10 archetypes!
http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

Thank you, i get your point now, this is better feedback.