16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes and no.

I agree that the game should provide a range 3 turret, but I don't think TLT should be the one. You also need to be careful with that because turrets do not suffer from range penalty ! That's another frequent suggestion that makes a ton of sense - change laser weapons to the same mechanic as primaries! Otherwise a range 3 secondary laser is always very good. A range 3 secondary laser with a 360° arc is amazing! So these turrets clearly need some form of additional cost beside the squad points, as two turrets with range 2 already have.

So which turrets do we have?
Out of the 6 turrets, ABT and Dorsal are intended for range 1. ICT is a control turret, and it like stress, jamming and tractor is probably better kept at range 1-2.
But then we also have 3 turrets that are only there to deal damage. Blaster can deal up to 3, but comes at a cost (focus) and is only R1-2. Synced can deal up to 3, but comes at a cost (TL) and is only R1-2. The remaining damage turret TLT is so out of line that it is rather ridiculous! Very consistent damage because you roll 2x 3 dice, no limiting constraints like the other two, and only slightly more expensive.

So yes I agree that there should be a range 3 turret. But no, TLT should absolutely not be the one with range 3!

If a R3 secondary turret is "so amazing" why did 4 x Y-Wings with TLT' s disappear like the proverbial flash in the pan?

I hated Fel in the past, not for the damage he did but because I couldn't get him in arc to shoot at the SOB! I never ranted for a nerf. I honestly feel that a lot of the bile spewed in threads like this one are because people can't fly their favorite squads and dominate the game.

3 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

If a R3 secondary turret is "so amazing" why did 4 x Y-Wings with TLT' s disappear like the proverbial flash in the pan?

I hated Fel in the past, not for the damage he did but because I couldn't get him in arc to shoot at the SOB! I never ranted for a nerf. I honestly feel that a lot of the bile spewed in threads like this one are because people can't fly their favorite squads and dominate the game.

Cause you can strap your TLTs on Scurrghs or K-wings instead?

I've always said make it 2 attack dice instead of 3. 3 is just way to easy to hit the majority of ships in the game. At 2 you'd be really hard pressed to hit agile targets, and god knows agile ships need some love in this game.

12 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Just make crits not count sounds fine to me.

I think that'd be so horrendously counter-intuitive, and also easily obviated by Accuracy Corrector. Even if the text was "at the end of the modify attack dice step, turn all Crit results to Blanks," it just feels wrong. And even if it makes the damage math better, it doesn't make the tabletop experience more interesting. A single shot out of arc, two in arc, would positioning and gameplay matter.

1 minute ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I've always said make it 2 attack dice instead of 3. 3 is just way to easy to hit the majority of ships in the game. At 2 you'd be really hard pressed to hit agile targets, and god knows agile ships need some love in this game.

*cough* Accuracy Corrector *cough*

1 minute ago, Stoneface said:

If a R3 secondary turret is "so amazing" why did 4 x Y-Wings with TLT' s disappear like the proverbial flash in the pan?

Wave11 had TLT at 7th upgrade; 18% of all squadrons used it! Do you know which cards were used more often? VI! That's it! So it looks like TLT really, truly is " so amazing ".

quadTLT is not the only way to use TLT. Besides that, quadAggressors are the 23rd archetype. That might sound unimpressive, but it's one of 3 purely generics-squads, which should give another hint at how good TLT is. The other two are TripleJumps, which were outright broken, and quadWookies. We all should know* by now that generics (with the exception of Wookies and JM5K) are not enough to win games anymore - except with TLT!

*GenCon for example had 42 generics out of 179 ships in the top64. It has been getting worse and worse since Worlds in May.

2 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

No. And I never said the (naked)Y-Wing is in a good spot. That ship is overcosted I do not deny that. But straping an OP Turret on its back my fix the Y-Wing but damaged the rest of the game.
I say nerf the TLT people realise that there are other turret upgrades and then buff these ships in a way that fits their character.

4 x Y-Wings with TLT didn't last long. If they were son OP why aren't they still "a thing"?

The TLT is a pain to go up against. There's no argument there. I don't think it damaged the game at all. If it did, you'd see it swatted down like the Jumpmasters were.

As for buffing the Y, that probably won't happen. In WW II parlance it is a torpedo bomber. Think of it as the TBF Avenger of the Star Wars era. Not fast, not maneuverable but beefy with a deadly payload. You're not going to turn this sow' s ear into a silk purse with buffs. It is overcosted like most ships especially the Rebels. This ship excels in Epic as a torpedo bomber but in the standard 100/6 the generics suffer.

As long as it is the only range 3 option that won't do to make other turrets relevant.

To put the OPnes of the TLT into perspective.

Average damage of a TLT (unmodified) against ag 0 is 1.75 that is the
Average damage od a normal attack (unmodified against ag 0) is 1.5 for 3 and 2 for 4 red dice.

So a TLT is a range 3 turret with the statistical damage of 3.5 red dice!!! Yes it maxes out at 2 damage but its avaerage is better when a 3 dice primary weapon AND it is out of arc AND it is full range (without adding a green) AND it is not restricted by having a focus or a TL.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I think the issue is that TLT does too much damage, too consistently, and too cheaply.

Of the three things you list I can only agree on the consistency. Two points of damage is the same as the ABT and AC. Cheap? It's the most expensive turret in the game. Palpatine at 8 points guarantees a crit a turn.

With all the TLT hate, I'd like to know what builds these haters use. Me? I'll fly and try anything, that's why I don't understand the constant call for nerfing the TLT.

10 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

4 x Y-Wings with TLT didn't last long. If they were son OP why aren't they still "a thing"?

1. generics generally suck unless the chassis is very good (Jumpmaster, Auzituck)
2. QuadAggressor are "a thing" because of TLT. No clue why you don't count them.
3. ThugLife had some pretty good showings, but it is allegedly extremely boring and unfun to play. So only very few people played it. Also, QuadAggressor replaced them, as they are slightly more interesting to play.
4. The game moved towards 2ship lists with point fortresses that conserve MoV.

3 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Of the three things you list I can only agree on the consistency. Two points of damage is the same as the ABT and AC. Cheap? It's the most expensive turret in the game. Palpatine at 8 points guarantees a crit a turn.

The consistency is linked to the damage. Consistency would not be a problem without 2 damage. The damage would not be a problem without the consistency.

And you can't look at 6pt flat. You need to compare the TLT to the other turret choices, and 1 or 2pts for the additional benefit is crazy.

I think it's fine as the only turret worth using. Don't nerf it.

1 minute ago, Stoneface said:

4 x Y-Wings with TLT didn't last long. If they were son OP why aren't they still "a thing"?

The TLT is a pain to go up against. There's no argument there. I don't think it damaged the game at all. If it did, you'd see it swatted down like the Jumpmasters were.

As for buffing the Y, that probably won't happen. In WW II parlance it is a torpedo bomber. Think of it as the TBF Avenger of the Star Wars era. Not fast, not maneuverable but beefy with a deadly payload. You're not going to turn this sow' s ear into a silk purse with buffs. It is overcosted like most ships especially the Rebels. This ship excels in Epic as a torpedo bomber but in the standard 100/6 the generics suffer.

As I said, buff the Y-Wing but not with OP turrets. To use your image ww2 (torpedo) bombers where not deployed for their machine guns.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Don't fix the HWK with turrets. Fix the Y-Wing and Aggressor with torps/missiles. Got it.

The HWK just needs a system slot so you can take Accuracy Corrector on its primary weapon. Fire once, hit twice.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

29 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Of the three things you list I can only agree on the consistency. Two points of damage is the same as the ABT and AC. Cheap? It's the most expensive turret in the game. Palpatine at 8 points guarantees a crit a turn.

With all the TLT hate, I'd like to know what builds these haters use. Me? I'll fly and try anything, that's why I don't understand the constant call for nerfing the TLT.

Consistency means too much damage-over-time. TLTs with a focus statistically does more damage than a 3-dice primary with focus against 3 greens and focus. Without arc concerns, with significantly fewer range concerns. Meanwhile, against something like Lone Wolf Dash (two heavily modified green dice), TLT does almost as much damage as an HLC, despite being 360 degrees of fire, rather than 80. I'd say that's too much damage, for as easy as it is to use, for its point cost.

As to hating it, it's more that it crowds out other turrets. The increase in damage vs other turrets, plus the increase in ease of use, just makes other turrets pretty much unplayable.

Meanwhile, it really stinks having your defense rolls not matter. Against an HLC, each evade I get means one fewer damage. With TLTs, a 1 or 2 agility ship often can roll perfect and still take the same damage as if rolling blanks. That's not really fun, considering that it's a lot harder to arc-dodge TLTs. If I get caught dead-to-rights by a fully modded HLC, there's a part of that which I feel is my fault. Even if I might take more damage, I've got a better shot to avoid it by flying better, or by getting luckier with my greens. Another example: something like Colonel Kenkirk with Ysanne Isard would be fun, but TLTs pretty much negate the build. A normal PWT, even if they're rolling fire, is going to have something I can play against with my green dice and tokens.

I’ll just repeat what I said in the VI thread:

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Range bonuses may be added to all weapons except missiles and torpedoes. You may not add range bonuses when attacking outside your arc.

Are range boni optional?

I still think that's not enough for TLT because the range 3 bonus is vastly underestimated - even against an additional green die.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Are range boni optional?

I still think that's not enough for TLT because the range 3 bonus is vastly underestimated - even against an additional green die.

Reading it again, maybe they aren’t. So you could word it

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Another example: something like Colonel Kenkirk with Ysanne Isard would be fun, but TLTs pretty much negate the build.

Anecdote: the last time I was at my FLGS, I played Kenkirk + Isard against Kavil + TALK and completely dodged his TLT one round. I laughed because it's so incredibly unlikely! So yeah, TLT pushes that out - I went on to lose that match.

But I don't think we should use examples like that to argue for nerfing other cards. Some things just don't work as well against others. I like counters because it adds variety, but I like counters that must be played to get the advantage. In this case, Kenkirk is a large ship, and should be able to either get in Kavil's way, or into the blind spot. It's tough, but there is counterplay.

Caveat: TLT spam is rough on Kenkirk and many other ships. Would making it "Limit 2 per squad" help, or is it still a pain/unfun to play against two TLTs?

Someone had specifically asked for examples of stuff. I don't think TLTs should be nerfed specifically for Kenkirk...

I guess what I was getting at is that with a normal 3-dice turret, the marginal hit and the marginal evade each add or prevent a damage. With something like Ion Cannon [turret or cannon], I guess it doesn't feel the same way, since it's only one attack. Even though TLT caps at 2, does it make sense to say I think I'd rather take 2 damage from a PWT than 2 damage from a TLT? There's just a more direct relationship between dice results and damage. It's more thrilling to roll a bunch of naturals (hits or evades) and get a huge hit, or evade everything. Getting a perfect roll against TLT and then blanking the next roll? Meh.

The other aspect is that TLT is kinda dull. There's nothing you have to do to optimize damage. It just works. With something like HLC or Torpedoes or so forth, you've got to work to get the hits, and it feels more rewarding, both to do damage with it, and to avoid that damage, and the game is more interesting.

//

Two per squad isn't super exciting, if only because of Miranda, title-Ghost, and Nym. I think the reason the two-per Attanni nerf worked is the nature of the card and how it interacts with multiples. TLT feel like they ought to be a bit more balanced in itself.

4 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

I think it's fine as the only turret worth using. Don't nerf it.

This is actually incorrect, you used to see ions and autoblasters pre TLT. TLT just spoilt everybody.

I’d like to see all turrets use an end of combat or action to move mobile firing arc mechanic. Let the Lancer count things as “in arc” and other ships stay as “firing out of arc”... returns a little thought to the game, rewards good dial usage on both players part, gives the Lancer something special for its turret

13 hours ago, Hannes Solo said:

As I said, buff the Y-Wing but not with OP turrets. To use your image ww2 (torpedo) bombers where not deployed for their machine guns.

No they weren't. Torpedo 8 is proof of that. But of all the aircraft the USAAC deployed during WW II that had turrets or rear firing guns there's only one, that I'm aware of, that didn't sport a .50 cal and that was the SBD Dauntless. It carried twin .30s. The U.S. realised that you needed something BIG to reach out and touch the enemy. The .50 BMG was the ticket.

A range 3 turret is needed. Maybe the AutoBlaster turret should be a R2-3. Relegate the TLT To R1 only.

Not Nerfy enough .

Card should read:

[Attack: Focus] , Spend a focus token to perform this attack. If the defender is a large ship perform this attack twice. If this attack hits the defender suffers 1 damage and cancel all dice results.

There I think that is enough nerf.

22 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

All turrets should require a focus or Target lock.

Maybe literally. The problem of 360 degree firing de-emphasizing maneuvering extends past TLT or Turret slots. Most Primary Turret Carriers are far from defenseless when forced to fire out of their primary arc, but coud more easily be controlled by stress and blocking.

The best fix IMO. Just make Crits count as blanks when using it.

Simple and effective.