I wish FFG would say it but at least we have confirmation from one of the game's old Devs that IA is not being replaced by legion.

https://www.twintroopers.com/podcast/2017/10/1/episode-14-interview-with-kurt-larson

FFG produces and sustains many product lines with similar themes and components.

Destiny did not stop Star Wars LCG.

Armada did not stop x-wing.

Rune wars did not kill Descent

The endless variations on Arkham horror have yet to kill the original board game.

The new baby sibling does not mean our parents will forget about us forever and no love us anymore.

IA is important, they use it to sell cheap miniatures of popular characters at amazing margin. IA has incredible momentum and install base.

They simply need to give the baby more attention right now because it still poops it's pants .

Legion is not a campaign game. End of story.

Arkham Horror the board game is still getting printed, but it's no longer being developed for, last I saw.

I think June was the last time they had a news article. They may be letting it rest a while and pick it back up with a second edition.

My my point is FFG rarely ever attempts to replace a product line that is actually working with a different incompatible product line. So long as the product still sells and they still have ideas for it they keep it alive.

I know Descent 2.0 has not had a physical release in over a year, but they have released the app 3 expansions for it since release. It is still up in the air if more physical expansions will be released, but the app continues strong. IA has so much more physical content potential and they are still working on the app that, if IA follows Descent, will boost IA sales substantially.

My biggest fear is how Assmodee/FFG is handling running their properties. Several game runners have left, been removed or changed franchises over the past 6-12 months. From the outside with extremely limited knowledge it seems like there are some issues in house and that is affecting a lot of properties. I know that they have added some players to their staff and hopefully this will help boost production. The other fear is that their physical production is taxed to the limit with the continuing added product lines.

38 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

This guy knows where his towel is :-)

-ryanjamal

X-Wing vs Armada

X-wing was already a juggernaut when Armada came out, with 100+ player Regionals and being the top selling miniatures game in the world. Imperial Assault can barely muster 16 player Regionals in most places and often sees 4 player store championships.

Destiney vs SW LCG

SW LCG players would probably disagree with you. I've heard that attendance/attention for the LCG took a nosedive after Destiney dropped.

Runewars vs Descent

These are completely different games. Descent doesn't have any organized play.

You seem to be misunderstanding the thing that people are actually worried about, and that's skirmish mode and organized play. Nobody's complaining that new product for the game is going to stop coming out, except for the weekly newcomer that notices FFG lists all IA products as out-of-stock and has a meltdown. Obviously Legion has almost no overlap on IA's campaign players. The concern is that the scant few skirmish players that the game has now are going to migrate away to Legion, and the skirmish scene will crumble.

In most places, IA organized play is struggling hard right now just keep attendance up to the minimum. As a 2-player tactical SW miniatures game, Legion poses a legitimate concern of heavily undermining IA's struggling skirmish organized play scene.

11 hours ago, TylerTT said:

IA is important, they use it to sell cheap miniatures of popular characters at amazing margin.

I would agree. I think as long as people still buy it, they'll keep making it. Question is will people keep buying it? I personally have always touted is as being one of the best valued games I've ever owned. It's customize-able (painting), has a campaign version for groups, and can be played competitively with 2 or 4 players.

My only complaint (other than the custom mat supply issue) is that they need to make it so that players are encouraged to take unique figures. I'm baffled why so many players take all or almost all generic figures. I get that they do this to be competitive, but at that point it changes the feel of the game and you might as well be playing Legion.

52 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

You seem to be misunderstanding the thing that people are actually worried about, and that's skirmish mode and organized play. Nobody's complaining that new product for the game is going to stop coming out, except for the weekly newcomer that notices FFG lists all IA products as out-of-stock and has a meltdown. Obviously Legion has almost no overlap on IA's campaign players. The concern is that the scant few skirmish players that the game has now are going to migrate away to Legion, and the skirmish scene will crumble.

In most places, IA organized play is struggling hard right now just keep attendance up to the minimum. As a 2-player tactical SW miniatures game, Legion poses a legitimate concern of heavily undermining IA's struggling skirmish organized play scene.

I get what you're saying, but I still feel like they're just really different games. People who like hour-long measurement-based war games were probably not playing Imperial Assault, and people who like IA's quick, tactical, small-scale, grid-based skirmish mode are probably not interested in Legion.

I mean, even hypothetically, who is the guy that had been playing IA competitive skirmish but is going to stop and play Legion instead? Maybe you could convince me that he's just a fan of star wars miniatures in general and doesn't care what the style of game is, but then why would such a person sell all their IA stuff that they already own just to start on a brand new product line (which will require a whole bunch of new expansion purchases)? And even if he is going to buy all of the new Legion expansions, what's to stop him from playing both games? He just doesn't have enough time? Well, hypothetical sir, if a lack of free time is your problem I'm not sure that Legion is really the game for you .

Honestly the only way that I can see Legion having any effect is that it might take some of the new players who might have otherwise played IA, but even that's a little dicey (again, two completely different games).

That's not to say that IA skirmish will live forever, and like with all games eventually the pool of interested people will continue to shrink until it's no longer viable. Will that happen soon? I hope not (from a skirmish game play perspective the game seems to be in a great place) but really who knows. I just don't think that Legion will have anything to do with it.

I remember when RuneWars miniatures came out, our local players were told (by X-wing players mostly) that it would kill IA. (insert laughing emoticon here)

Skirmish mode is killing its self. No other FFG competitive game has players spending $160 dollars just so they can have the maps need to play. Only armada and rune Wars even come close to that level of investment.

what could be a cheap acessable 2 player game is buried under a product model that makes it impossible.

IA skirmish has the benefit from the fact that it is attached to the IA campaign game. So even if skirmish attendance drops so long as the game sells, even if only by campaign players, the game will survive.

1 hour ago, TylerTT said:

Skirmish mode is killing its self. No other FFG competitive game has players spending $160 dollars just so they can have the maps need to play. Only armada and rune Wars even come close to that level of investment.

what could be a cheap acessable 2 player game is buried under a product model that makes it impossible.

There has been 2 times I know of that X-Wing players were paying $90 for one card (C-3PO and Emperor).

I was interested in skirmish when IA first came out but then when I nephew had to buy 2 cores and multiple packs to be competitive it put me off.

35 minutes ago, Cusm said:

I was interested in skirmish when IA first came out but then when I nephew had to buy 2 cores and multiple packs to be competitive it put me off.

FWIW, in no way do you have to do that anymore. Those early days were dark times.

-ryanjamal

42 minutes ago, Cusm said:

There has been 2 times I know of that X-Wing players were paying $90 for one card (C-3PO and Emperor).

I was interested in skirmish when IA first came out but then when I nephew had to buy 2 cores and multiple packs to be competitive it put me off.

Yeah there's no reason to buy two core sets anymore at all. Maybe a second Jabba's Realm or HotE...maybe. But you don't have to and it will continue to fill up with enough options that you don't have to run two sets of an elite deployment to be competitive. The closest things to "have" to run two sets of were/are E Weequays and E Jets, but you didn't and don't have to do that, it's just really strong. And you can always borrow some from friends for a big tourney. Now it might be fun (maybe strong who knows) to run two sets of E Riots, E Sentries, or AT-DP's but time will tell. But I'm pretty confident you don't need to.

10 minutes ago, ryanjamal said:

FWIW, in no way do you have to do that anymore. Those early days were dark times.

-ryanjamal

Nice to know. I am a late adopter bought in from the used market and I have the core and 90% all the small expansions and Jabba. There is no competitive community locally so I will stick with co-op unless someone starts local play.

When I bring up the cost of skirmish I mean. You need $160 in product for just the map tiles used to attend an event. Not even considering the costs of models or cards. It would be like if you needed the asteroid tokens from the raider to play at any x-wing event reguardless of your faction.

16 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Skirmish mode is killing its self. No other FFG competitive game has players spending $160 dollars just so they can have the maps need to play. Only armada and rune Wars even come close to that level of investment.

what could be a cheap acessable 2 player game is buried under a product model that makes it impossible.

It was originally designed as a Campaign game first, with Skirmish in there as an afterthought, and was certainly not the focus of the game, which was another instalment in the DOOM-engine board game series. I also feel like some legal license wrangling behind the scenes had to do with marketing and how its sold.

In any case, wouldn't you need to pay a similar amount of money to get into Armada? A Core and a Star Destroyer (which to me would be the go-to pick if you're playing the game for a love of Star Wars) would be a similar cost, and that's before you look at other support ships or anything else you might want to get into.

Sure, you don't need map tiles to play on, but the map tiles come inside the box set you're going to want to buy anyways.

Also, outside of a major tournament, I have yet to hear of anyone NOT using their own vinyl maps that they've gotten printed elsewhere for a small fee. So what you really need to consider is "how much would I need to spend to purchase the appropriate SKU's that allow me to field a competitive list?"

I'm assuming your plan is to have a new player throw down with a decent list and chance of winning, and not some jank cobbled together from whatever the cheapest packs are.

It will start with the Core, and then Jabba's Realm if you're going to play Mercs or Imperials to get the eJets and eWeeqs/Vinto/Onar/Shyla. So then as Rebels maybe you skip that box altogether and buy Rangers and Luke and now you're missing the Jabba tiles? Top up at your local print shop.

The tiles being sold in different boxes is only a problem if your plans for IA are to just gingerly dip your toes in the water and have exactly one list you're ever going to play forever and ever. If you're into the game and want the variety of having different things to field, then you'll be into the boxes anyways.

Does anyone want to take a stab at what percentage of the player base this is actually a problem for?

Campaign players would have all the boxes. Regular Skirmish players would have all the boxes. So for a new adopter its a bit of a hill to climb, but you can just print the maps since I'm guessing a brand new player isn't expecting themselves to climb the ladder at Worlds in May and take home the championship.

13 hours ago, TylerTT said:

When I bring up the cost of skirmish I mean. You need $160 in product for just the map tiles used to attend an event. Not even considering the costs of models or cards. It would be like if you needed the asteroid tokens from the raider to play at any x-wing event reguardless of your faction.

There was a time when you "had" to have the Raider if you wanted to play Imperials at all. Then a little while later they errata'ed the key card from the Raider and made it effectively useless for its cost, thus negating the value of the purchase for anyone but those Epic players that never play.

14 hours ago, Masterchiefspiff said:

Yeah there's no reason to buy two core sets anymore at all. Maybe a second Jabba's Realm or HotE...maybe. But you don't have to and it will continue to fill up with enough options that you don't have to run two sets of an elite deployment to be competitive. The closest things to "have" to run two sets of were/are E Weequays and E Jets, but you didn't and don't have to do that, it's just really strong. And you can always borrow some from friends for a big tourney. Now it might be fun (maybe strong who knows) to run two sets of E Riots, E Sentries, or AT-DP's but time will tell. But I'm pretty confident you don't need to.

I'd only recommend buying doubles of the boxes if you think you're going to find yourself dipping into the secondary market for those extra deployment cards/figures. They're typically sold as a set, and when you factor in the sale and shipping, you're probably looking at $20-$30 depending on how in demand it is. If you do that as a one-off, it's not a big deal but if you find yourself chasing down, for example, an extra eJet and eWeeq to run those in pairs, you might as well grab the other Jabba box instead, since you'll also get the extra ePig and Rancor for not much more money than buying the Jets/Weeqs on their own, plus now you have another Rancor for the jankiest list you'll ever run!

1 hour ago, cleardave said:

plus now you have another Rancor for the jankiest list you'll ever run!

I love running double rancors ?

-ryanjamal

Skirmish is an integral part of their development cycle and arose naturally from their own needs to test models. It’s highly doubtful that they would stop supporting this mode of play in product releases because it’s sort of a side product of the way the game is made.

In addition to the cost problems of playing skirmish there is also a massive visibility problem. Almost no one knows it exists and the few who do may not even try playing it.

A friend of mine had all the IA stuff and sold it, he did not even think to try playing the skirmish mode and regrets selling it.

Comparing costs isn’t the right kind of reasoning. An Armada starter and an ISD is an amazing product that delivers exactly what you want to play that game.

the IA starter and current big box is a great product if you want campaign mode but if you want a skirmish game you are getting a very weak product. The map tiles are bad for events, the models in the core set are also kind of garbage for skirmish.

FFG is has set up the IA product line so that only one player in five should ever buy anything for the campaign game. If they promoted and supported skirmish better then they could sell things to every player at the table.

On 11/11/2017 at 6:09 AM, cleardave said:

Campaign players would have all the boxes. Regular Skirmish players would have all the boxes. So for a new adopter its a bit of a hill to climb, but you can just print the maps since I'm guessing a brand new player isn't expecting themselves to climb the ladder at Worlds in May and take home the championship.

I found it interesting that the Worlds winner in Runewars bought all his stuff at the venue, and iirc spent less than $150. At least FFG is learning from their history. Unfortunately it does little for IA, Armada or X-Wing new players.

Skirmish is probably the best game FFG does right now. HOWEVER they do not support nor make it accessible to growth at all. Tyler TT is correct. The fix for this is admitting(FFG) this is worthwhile game or investment (maybe they legally can't or don't want to having sold their soul to HASBRO) but if they altered the way the maps are made, they could easily quadruple the number of players by making the entry point extremely affordable. The more people you have playing, the more people will buy older sets or even other factions to get the cards they want. Printed maps on paper would solve all of this. You could then play a faction or force for about $50 an entry.