If you are a Ataru/M.A. And you dual weld your fist and a saber can you use unarmed talents with your free hand?

It depends on the talent, I would say.

45 minutes ago, TheShard said:

If you are a Ataru/M.A. And you dual weld your fist and a saber can you use unarmed talents with your free hand?

If a talent requires you to be unarmed, and you are armed with a lightsaber, then the talent doesn't work.

But if a talent just requires an unarmed attack, then yeah as long as you're not using any actual weapon for the attack (Brawl or otherwise)—in other words, no artificial damage increases, critical ratings, or other effects you can get from certain offensive equipment—then you can make it work.

EDIT: Clarify—"dual-wielding" is just holding two weapons. But re-reading your question, I just realized you might be talking about actually attacking with a fist and saber. You'd have to approach each talent and see what it says on its face.

Yes a fist and saber.

But unarmed parry i think has been ruled by devs to applicable if you have a free unarmed hand.

What talent requires you to be unarmed that a free hand wouldn't work as unarmed?

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Not according to Sam Stewart (lead developer for ffg star wars) when he was on the order 66 episode about no disintegrations. You only need to have one free hand.

To me it's a balance point. If I was the gm I would allow it with the caveat of if it turns out to be too powerful in comparison to allies, it will likely be retconned.

Unarmed para is one strain cheaper than regular pay and on strain more expensive than supreme parry, but unlike supreme parry it let's you attack on your turn (but since you don't have improved parry you can't get a free attack in response to a melee attack that generates a despair or 3 threat).

The secondary benefit (after saving 1 strain) for this build/style of fighting is that during those ?rare? Occasions where the gm takes away your gear (e.g. you get captured) you're not especially vulnerable to melee attacks.

It's not as powerful as a fully upgraded sense defense, and 2 ranks of defensive training which you can get from consular:Niman disciple

It'seems also not as powerful as fully upgraded coordination dodge and using the base precision strike (which works with lightsabers) to keep the destiny pool all white via the discouraging wound critical hit. If I were a gm that's would be the first candidate for nerfing the martial artist (e.g. you can't use precision strike to choose the critical hit you deal to a minion)

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

If I were a gm that's would be the first candidate for nerfing the martial artist (e.g. you can't use precision strike to choose the critical hit you deal to a minion)

There you are right! The Precion Strike (all three versions) is extremly powerful in this game. But for a minion the crit is never rolled (it just kills one minion everytime) so you can't use Precision Strike. so no extrem exploiting here.

For Rivals and Nemesis, if the Pc uses P.S. to much or in an unbeatable combo, you can resort to Durable and Armor Masterand unstopable to keep your BBGs in the fight! Since the reduction of the crit is applied after the outcome of the roll/ change by P.S., the maiming LS Crystal and Diruptor is set, so it helps a lot ... sometimes.

But now for the Topic:

Dual wielding Light saber and Fist is possible, The M.A. talents for unarmed and brawl will only be applied to the fist part of the attack [Be aware by RAW martial grace wont work since you don't do a Brawl check but a combined Brawl/Lightsaber check - on a 2 Weapon Brawl attack it would work since it still is only a brawl attack ^^// same goes for the marauder talent frenzy attack since it would upgrade brawl or melee attacks BUT not Lighsaber attacks (at the same time it should work if you use a Vibrosword instead of the LS) also Force point due to Enchance for Brawl wouldn't work since this is not just a brawl check]

And all Lightsaber related Talents are working only on the Lightsaber and some talents won't be useable by raw since you are not doing a Lightsaber-Agility check, so no hawkbat Swoop, or Saberswarm.

So in your Ataru - MA Hybrid attack you would have to use the lower Attribute (Agility or Brawn) and the lower Skill (Lightsaber or Brawl) while increasing your difficulty 2 Times (since the skills used are different) That is a basic difficulty of 4 Purpel just for your attack.

If you are able to hit you'll need 2 advatages to just hit with the second part of the attack.

however it is possible to achieve this. Then if you hit and do damage on both attacks you can proc a crit each time IF you have enought advantages!

For the Lightsaber you can use Precion Strike and for the Fist attack you may use the basis OR Improved OR Supreme Version of P.S. (the later ones are resticted for one use per turn while the basis can be used as often as you like)

For this Combi Flow/ebb is recommended since this only need to be the same skill check again!

4 hours ago, Nightone said:

For Rivals and Nemesis, if the Pc uses P.S. to much or in an unbeatable combo, you can resort to Durable and Armor Masterand unstopable to keep your BBGs in the fight! Since the reduction of the crit is applied after the outcome of the roll/ change by P.S., the maiming LS Crystal and Diruptor is set, so it helps a lot ... sometimes.

A dev (I don't have an exact source at the moment but was probably on an episode of the order 66 podcast I just don't remember which one) has ruled that when you don't roll for a crit talents that modify the rolled result don't stack, e.g. you can'take combine precision strike and lethal blows to get a higher percentile result than precision strike would allow.

Also, duel wielding different weapons means (hand and lightsaber) would face a 4 purple difficulty and use the lower of the 2 attributes (brawn and agilitt) and lower skill (brawl and lightsaber) so it's completely ineffective. If you want to use, for example, supreme precisión strike to pick a nasty crit (and there are tactical reasons to want to do this) you're much better off forgoing the lightsaber attack for one round.

The effective ways to mix martial arts and lightsaber are unarmed parry and overballance.

On 10.11.2017 at 5:15 PM, EliasWindrider said:

A dev (I don't have an exact source at the moment but was probably on an episode of the order 66 podcast I just don't remember which one) has ruled that when you don't roll for a crit talents that modify the rolled result don't stack, e.g. you can'take combine precision strike and lethal blows to get a higher percentile result than precision strike would allow.

Absolutly correct, I never have implied that it would stack ^^ I only mentioned the defense against this talent, but maybe my language was bad, so I'll clarify a bit more:

First you roll the Crit than you add Lethalblows (automatic no Option here!), now you decide if you like the result if not you use a version of precision strike.
Now the defender can choise to use Durable and/ or supreme armor master to reduce the outcome again.

The same goes for Weapons that will set the Crit to a minimum value: like the Disrupter

You roll the crit and add lethal Blows, if your crit is lower than "Maimed" the weapon will set the crit to "maimed", now again the defender can choose to use durable/ suprem armor master to reduce the crit (an not lose an arm or leg ^^)

also this counts the same way for the Varpelin Crystal Special Effect (spend to triumphs to auto maim)

and here is the Dev ruleing for it (Page 11 of the "Dev answerd questions") :

On 12.2.2017 at 11:50 PM, Jedi Ronin said:

Question

Quote

Rules Question:
If a disruptor weapon inflicts a Critical hit it's minimum result is Crippled. The Durable Talent reduces a Critiical hits result 10 per rank. Which of these effects takes precedence and is applied last (i.e., can Durable reduce a disruptor critical to be less severe than Crippled)?

Answer

Quote

The disruptor would apply the crit, then Durable would reduce that result. So yes, Durable can protect you from a disruptor shot.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

And of course in each and every time: The GM has the final word on what works how

5 hours ago, Nightone said:

Absolutly correct, I never have implied that it would stack ^^ I only mentioned the defense against this talent, but maybe my language was bad, so I'll clarify a bit more:

First you roll the Crit than you add Lethalblows (automatic no Option here!), now you decide if you like the result if not you use a version of precision strike.
Now the defender can choise to use Durable and/ or supreme armor master to reduce the outcome again.

The same goes for Weapons that will set the Crit to a minimum value: like the Disrupter

You roll the crit and add lethal Blows, if your crit is lower than "Maimed" the weapon will set the crit to "maimed", now again the defender can choose to use durable/ suprem armor master to reduce the crit (an not lose an arm or leg ^^)

also this counts the same way for the Varpelin Crystal Special Effect (spend to triumphs to auto maim)

and here is the Dev ruleing for it (Page 11 of the "Dev answerd questions") :

And of course in each and every time: The GM has the final word on what works how

I have about 98% confidence that the official ruling is that if the person attacking you just uses precision strike (or the improved or supreme versions) it's treated as not having rolled the critical hit percentile at all and since the critical hit percentile was never rolled durable doesn't apply/come into play, but I don't have a source on that at the moment. It works the same both ways, as in for both pluses (lethal blows) and minuses (durable)

it's treated as not having rolled the critical hit percentile at all and since the critical hit percentile was never rolled

The wording of P.S. is: " ...May chance the Result of a crit roll to any Easy/Medium/Hard severity critical result"

So you don't forgo the roll, but you change it's result:
NOT "Hmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it Overpowered!"
BUT "Hmmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it 76 - Thats Overpower!"

otherwise the P.S. would be the one and only Talent that has no chance of beeing resisted to and that would be overpowerd! (PUN intended)

The reason why it is possiblie comes with the already citet Devs rule!

It is just a question of which comes first, and the DEV - Sam Steward - ruled that first you determin the options on the attackers side (in the example it is the disruptors effect, but that can be extrapolated to the Varpelin crystal AND the precicion Strike talent.

so

NOT Attacker "Hmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it Overpowered!" Defender "... Great can't do anything... and you just spend some strain"
BUT "Hmmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it 76 - Thats Overpower!" Defender "... ok I use my durable 3... that makes the crit 46 - thats Headringer... well still s***ks but at least you can't attack a second time!"

I like to rule that Durable reduces the options available when using Precision Strike. So with one rank of Durable, you can't use Precison Strike to apply the Stinger or Stunned injuries to your target. With 4 ranks, Precision Strike is useless.

Ranks in Lethal Blows, the Vicious quality, or accrued Critical Injuries can offset this.

I like this because Precision Strike can turn into a bit of an "I Win" button, so this gives some characters just a little bit of defense against it.

10 hours ago, Nightone said:

it's treated as not having rolled the critical hit percentile at all and since the critical hit percentile was never rolled

The wording of P.S. is: " ...May chance the Result of a crit roll to any Easy/Medium/Hard severity critical result"

So you don't forgo the roll, but you change it's result:
NOT "Hmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it Overpowered!"
BUT "Hmmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it 76 - Thats Overpower!"

otherwise the P.S. would be the one and only Talent that has no chance of beeing resisted to and that would be overpowerd! (PUN intended)

The reason why it is possiblie comes with the already citet Devs rule!

It is just a question of which comes first, and the DEV - Sam Steward - ruled that first you determin the options on the attackers side (in the example it is the disruptors effect, but that can be extrapolated to the Varpelin crystal AND the precicion Strike talent.

so

NOT Attacker "Hmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it Overpowered!" Defender "... Great can't do anything... and you just spend some strain"
BUT "Hmmm... rolling 44... Meh I make it 76 - Thats Overpower!" Defender "... ok I use my durable 3... that makes the crit 46 - thats Headringer... well still s***ks but at least you can't attack a second time!"

Like I said, I believe this that what I told you is the official precision strike specific ruling handed down by a dev guest (probably Sam stewart) on the order 66 podcast, the two i'd check first are the episodes on keeping the peace and no disintegrations.

since it seems we are running forth and back,
I went ahead and send a question about this to the DEVs, once I get a response how RAW/RAI on this topic works, I'll share it. (here as well as in the DEV. Answerd Questions Thread)

Until then (and of course even after that!) everyone should use the ruling that works the best at your table!

And here the answer is:

Quote

Hello Nightone,

Anything that sets a specific Critical simply replaces the Critical Injury roll. So you would generate the result through the Disruptor, Precision Strike, or whatever. Then Durable or similar abilities kick in and modify that result.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

On Nov 14, 2017, at 1:55 AM, [email protected] wrote:

Message from:
Nightone


Rules Question:
Hi FFG Team! Short question about Durable/ Supreme Armor Master vs. Precision Strike/ Disruptor/ Varpelin Lightsaber. Does Durable help to reduce the critical result of the 3 Special Cases?

1) The Disruptor sets the result of the crit roll to minimum maimed (so from let's say 46 to 101) after this the durable / supreme Armor Master should be able to reduce the out come again (so no maimed)

2) Precision Strike, after the crit roll the martial artist can choose to suffer strain to set the result to any Easy/Medium/hard (depending of the level of Precision Strike) Result. (so from 46 - Headringer to 81 - Overpowered) ishere Durable also applieable to then again reduce the outcome of this mighty talent after the M.A. choose to change the outcome?

3) Varpelin Crystal, by spending two Triumph the result of the Crit is automaticaly set to Maimed... no d100 required. Can this be reduced by durabel/ supreme armor master?

greetings Nightone

That settles it.

Durable and Supreme Armor Master saves the day ^^