7 hours ago, Sekac said:

No one can take unguided rockets as well as imps can.

No one can take low cost self-sufficient aces as well as imps can.

OUR VADER IS INTIMIDATING

no one swarms ties like our imps!

18 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Kylo won some store champs but he's not quite there really. Needs a killer imp crew to elevate the Upsilon.

Kylo: Wired, Recon Spec, Weapons Guidance, Reinforced Deflectors.

I paired it with a generic TAP, Bomber, and Aggressor, won a store championship pretty easily.

I also used RAC with that build, and it was a pretty brutal monster.

15 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Pity the boxes it comes in doesn't allow for its full crit potential.

JM5K says "lolz"

8 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

Every rebel here'd love to be you, Imps!
Even when taking your lumps

[IMPERIALS]
As a specimen, yes, I'm intimidating!

[ALL]
My, what a guy, that Imperials !

Ok, I'm so **** glad I'm not the only one that almost burst into "Gaston" when I read that.

The thing with chips is 3 dice primary ships have less reason to take ordnance because they're more expensive and their primaries aren't ****

Gchips therefore provide an incentive

Not really much of one, though. Only way ordnance gets used is high ps or deadeye, and the crit only really matters for harpoons and boba Fett

Imps don't need the crit benefit because the HLC boat we're getting is better

15 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

No one can take a mediocre upgrade card that wouldn't be necessary if Imperial ordnance carriers had 3 dice primaries? Flawless logic there. Your answer to why don't imp ordnance carriers have 3 dice primaries is to mention two separate things as the faction identity of imperials, both of those things being worse than the alternative. Which is exactly my point. Imps lack a faction identity so much, people bring up their weaknesses as one.

Three ships can equip unguided rockets, none of them are drowning in action efficiency, and all depend heavily on their focus action for defense. Unguided rockets is nice and cheap, but it's really not worth the fuss. I'd rather have that extra primary, thank you very much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "low cost self-sufficient aces" but if you mean the pocket aces... they can. Not even bad ones. A-wing aces are nice, The Scyck has some cool pilots as well. Granted, they are not OL, but they are not bad. It's not like imperials have access to okay regen (like Pulse Ray Shield). We have no regen at all.

And if you mean Soontir, Vader and alike... yeah they can. Fenn Rau and TBC are the same price, and very dangerous pilots. If flown well, they can annihilate a ship in a round by themselves.

Let me make sure I understand...

1) It's not fair that imperial ordnance carriers only have 2 attack dice because when they are attacking with 4 dice missiles, they don't get a free crit.

2) Rebel and scum "pocket aces" (which is somehow more descriptive than "low cost, self-sufficient") are fine because 2 attack dice isn't bad.

Am I getting that right?

Your contention:

Other factions do imperial things better than imperials.

My response:

Imperials do aces better.

Your rebuttal:

Just because imperials do aces better, doesn't mean the other factions are bad at it.

That's not the debate we're having. Imperials do aces better. There is nothing even close to OL for that price range. Soontir is better than Fenn and Talonbane 1 on 1 hands down.

The unguided rockets comment was just snark because I have very little patience for imperial players incessantly whining. Rebels and scum just took some heavy nerfs and y'all haven't missed a beat with the complaints.

12 minutes ago, Sekac said:

That's not the debate we're having. Imperials do aces better. There is nothing even close to OL for that price range. Soontir is better than Fenn and Talonbane 1 on 1 hands down.

'Pocket Aces' definitely. Veteran Instincts 'Duchess' is another one - a PS10, sort-of-agility-3, sort-of-free-boost interceptor analogue for the price of a middling tier X-wing. Some of the TIE fighter aces are amazing in what you get for your money, too.

Once you start throwing in lots of points at something - tooled up Vader, Soontir, Whisper, etc then Fenn Rau, Vaksai Talonbane Cobra, Poe Dameron, etc all are fair game to consider. I think the Imperials will probably take the crown in an ace-off, but the other factions aces are probably better at dealing with anything else.

I think my main problem is that I can't make myself field a mixed ship aces force for imperials. A TIE Advanced, A TIE Phantom and A TIE Interceptor FlY Into A Warzone sounds like the start of a bad pun, not the most regimented military in galactic history...

44 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Just because imperials do aces better, doesn't mean the other factions are bad at it.

Yes. That is exactly what my point is. The faction identity of imperials is not unique. Rebels are able to bring aces close to the power of imperials, why still having access to regen. That is not a faction identity anymore. That is a thing in the game that happens. What can Imps do that rebels can't? Because bringing aces is not unique to them.

Would regenerating be the faction identity of the rebels if all factions had easy access to it? No it wouldn't. Therefore, Imperials do not have the faction identity of being able to bring aces, because EVERYONE can.

The fair solution, in this case, would be giving access to other things to imperials. Like Pulse Ray Shield. FFG doesn't seem bothered that the rebellion gets pocket aces, and its not like PRS is as good as R2D2. It wouldn'T take their shine away. It's not even a lore thing... Everything in SW that has shields can regenerate. That's what shields do.

This is exactly my problem. Everyone can bring a pocket ace. The empire can do more, sure, but its not unique to them. Scum used to be about illicits, now the rebels have access to it, but imperials strangely don't. Rebels have 90% of the regen abilities in the game, and there is Gonk. What about Imperials? oh, yeah, they don't have access to it. Why?

As an Imperial, I feel like I'm playing a different game, with different rules. Everyone else gets to play with all the toys, but I only have a selection of them.

So my question is. What is UNIQUE to the imperial playstyle that cannot be done by either of the other factions? Not "the imperials are doing it better"... For example, I have no issue with Imps having less turrets than the other too... But they have turrets. (WHat bothers me is that the game gives very little incentives to BRING anything without a turret, mainly due to the oversaturation, and the seemingly lack of weaknesses for turret carriers)

And why people say PRS would be too much to handle on OL? Would it honestly be more distracting, or even equally distracting as Nym, Dengar, Miranda or Biggs? Are we that scared of a 4hp ship with regen? Imperial lists would go and dominate everything because of a single ship? After all, there are no ways in this game to deal direct damage to a ship... oh wait. There is a counter for that.

You know what is the funny thing about Bombs? Before the K-wing and Sabine came out some people here on the forum said that the Empire is the faction of bombs. We had the Decimator, the Bomber and the Firespray, while all others before wave 7 only had the Y-wing with bomb loadout, and the firespray. We had a unique, bomb oriented ship, that no one else had.

I w o n d e r w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Let me make sure I understand...

1) It's not fair that imperial ordnance carriers only have 2 attack dice because when they are attacking with 4 dice missiles, they don't get a free crit.

I think the real issue isn't Guidance Chips allowing a Crit or Hit due to 2 or 3+ primary attack, it is that basically all Imperial ordnance carriers have been designed to require a Modification (Lightweight Frame, Autothrusters, Adv SLAM) besides Guidance Chips for the ship to be cost effective/see reliable competitive play.

This makes Guidance Chips a poor choice for the ship platform, but sadly required to make the Ordnance shots equivalent in power and reliability to, say, effective Scum ordnance carriers.

Any ship can use Chips. Everyone says the JM5K comes with cards it cannot use. It can still use the Chips!

2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

Yes. That is exactly what my point is. The faction identity of imperials is not unique. Rebels are able to bring aces close to the power of imperials, why still having access to regen. That is not a faction identity anymore. That is a thing in the game that happens. What can Imps do that rebels can't? Because bringing aces is not unique to them.

Would regenerating be the faction identity of the rebels if all factions had easy access to it? No it wouldn't. Therefore, Imperials do not have the faction identity of being able to bring aces, because EVERYONE can.

The fair solution, in this case, would be giving access to other things to imperials. Like Pulse Ray Shield. FFG doesn't seem bothered that the rebellion gets pocket aces, and its not like PRS is as good as R2D2. It wouldn'T take their shine away. It's not even a lore thing... Everything in SW that has shields can regenerate. That's what shields do.

This is exactly my problem. Everyone can bring a pocket ace. The empire can do more, sure, but its not unique to them. Scum used to be about illicits, now the rebels have access to it, but imperials strangely don't. Rebels have 90% of the regen abilities in the game, and there is Gonk. What about Imperials? oh, yeah, they don't have access to it. Why?

As an Imperial, I feel like I'm playing a different game, with different rules. Everyone else gets to play with all the toys, but I only have a selection of them.

So my question is. What is UNIQUE to the imperial playstyle that cannot be done by either of the other factions? Not "the imperials are doing it better"... For example, I have no issue with Imps having less turrets than the other too... But they have turrets. (WHat bothers me is that the game gives very little incentives to BRING anything without a turret, mainly due to the oversaturation, and the seemingly lack of weaknesses for turret carriers)

I guess I'd just say your expectations are way too high for a game 12+ waves in. It's unrealistic to expect nobody else to have access to the things you want for your faction after years of accretion.

I think that you should be satisfied that imperial pocket and non-pocket aces are better. But instead you're upset that other factions are allowed to have less-good aces?

It's not a very rational stance, it just comes across as petty.

"Mom, I don't want 2 scoops of ice cream because my brother seems to be enjoying his 1 scoop! I want him to have no ice cream!"

3 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I guess I'd just say your expectations are way too high for a game 12+ waves in. It's unrealistic to expect nobody else to have access to the things you want for your faction after years of accretion.

I think that you should be satisfied that imperial pocket and non-pocket aces are better. But instead you're upset that other factions are allowed to have less-good aces?

It's not a very rational stance, it just comes across as petty.

"Mom, I don't want 2 scoops of ice cream because my brother seems to be enjoying his 1 scoop! I want him to have no ice cream!"

I mean... It's getting really hard for me to believe you are missing the point unintentionally.

I'm fine with the rebellion having their less effective version of an imperial thing (although, I wouldn't call them that), if and ONLY IF, in turn the empire also gets to have their thing. Regen, astroslots, illicit upgrades, more unique crews. It doesn't have to be the best regen, but SOMETHING.

My problem is disparity.

Imperials don't have 2 scoops of icecream. They have 1, and everyone else has at least 1.5. They can each do their own thing, and do what imperials do, slightly worse. Which, I think I put quite clearly in my original comment:

Quote

It seems like the Imperial faction identity is "everything imps can do, the others can do it as well, but imps can't do what they do"

ASLAM actually being useful says "Hi".

26 minutes ago, Sekac said:

"Mom, I don't want 2 scoops of ice cream because my brother seems to be enjoying his 1 scoop! I want him to have no ice cream!"

No, its more like the following.

Mom told each of her 3 kids they each would get their own special dessert.

Rebels got Pie.

Scum got Cake.

Imperial got Ice Cream.

But then Mom said, "Oh hey Rebels and Scum, you guys can have some Ice Cream too"

Imperials were like "So if they get Ice Cream too, can I have some Cake and Pie"

Mom said "No, you got Ice Cream, you should be happy with that"

1 minute ago, BadMotivator said:

No, its more like the following.

Mom told each of her 3 kids they each would get their own special dessert.

Rebels got Pie.

Scum got Cake.

Imperial got Ice Cream.

But then Mom said, "Oh hey Rebels and Scum, you guys can have some Ice Cream too"

Imperials were like "So if they get Ice Cream too, can I have some Cake and Pie"

Mom said "No, you got Ice Cream, you should be happy with that"

It would be nice to have something Imperial Only. Bombing and stress should have been the Imperial things, as they both make sense thematically and mechanically.

4 hours ago, kris40k said:

Ok, I'm so **** glad I'm not the only one that almost burst into "Gaston" when I read that.

I was surprised by how many people _didn't_ seem to be bursting into song...

5 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

It would be nice to have something Imperial Only. Bombing and stress should have been the Imperial things, as they both make sense thematically and mechanically.

Ironically, both bombing and stress is done better by others.

Just now, RufusDaMan said:

Ironically, both bombing and stress is done better by others.

Thus my use of the word "should". Throw theme out the window, game design 101 would say to give the Empire the best bombers with the other factions having weak to no bombs. Why? Because the Empire is the weakest to bombs, making playing them risky (friendly fire), but potentially rewarding (extra damage vs high health ships). Both Rebels and scum are way better at bombing, while at the same time being more resistant to bombs. Don't give auto-damage to the low-agility, high-health factions, give it to the high-agility, low-health faction. Seriously, this is game design 101 stuff.

2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

I mean... It's getting really hard for me to believe you are missing the point unintentionally.

I'm fine with the rebellion having their less effective version of an imperial thing (although, I wouldn't call them that), if and ONLY IF, in turn the empire also gets to have their thing. Regen, astroslots, illicit upgrades, more unique crews. It doesn't have to be the best regen, but SOMETHING.

My problem is disparity.

Imperials don't have 2 scoops of icecream. They have 1, and everyone else has at least 1.5. They can each do their own thing, and do what imperials do, slightly worse. Which, I think I put quite clearly in my original comment:

Illicits and astromechs make no sense as imperial identity inclusions though. Very few of their ships had hyper-drives, and the ones that did were advanced enough that they didn't need astromechs to assist. They are the faction of law and order, why would they have illegal after market mods?

The same argument applies to shield regen, as the source is usually an astromech or an after market (and probably illegal) mod.

But are you telling me you'd be satisfied with imperials of they had a crappier version of regen like Gonk? I mean if regen is the rebel thing, surely you don't think imperials should do it well. Would having Gonk available to imperials move the needle much? Nobody would take him because he's not good. Would it make you feel better to have an option to say no to him?

Nobody takes A-wing pocket aces because they're not good right now. Having them available and routinely ignored in competitive play doesn't make rebel players feel better. They wish A-wings were better.

I suspect we'd see the same thing with imperial players if FFG granted your wish and introduced crappy regen for imperials.

25 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Illicits and astromechs make no sense as imperial identity inclusions though. Very few of their ships had hyper-drives, and the ones that did were advanced enough that they didn't need astromechs to assist. They are the faction of law and order, why would they have illegal after market mods?

The same argument applies to shield regen, as the source is usually an astromech or an after market (and probably illegal) mod.

But are you telling me you'd be satisfied with imperials of they had a crappier version of regen like Gonk? I mean if regen is the rebel thing, surely you don't think imperials should do it well. Would having Gonk available to imperials move the needle much? Nobody would take him because he's not good. Would it make you feel better to have an option to say no to him?

Nobody takes A-wing pocket aces because they're not good right now. Having them available and routinely ignored in competitive play doesn't make rebel players feel better. They wish A-wings were better.

I suspect we'd see the same thing with imperial players if FFG granted your wish and introduced crappy regen for imperials.

I would be happy if we actually had something unique, failing that, yes. Make things like PRS available to Imps too.

4 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Any ship can use Chips. Everyone says the JM5K comes with cards it cannot use. It can still use the Chips!

Mmmmm. . . crunchy and salty all in one box.

7 hours ago, Cr0aker said:

JM5K says "lolz"

Well yeah, it's even crazier now lol.

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Bombing [snip] should have been the Imperial things, as they both make sense thematically and mechanically.

Well, other than movie and TV content showcasing other factions doing it (CoughYwingsCough).

And also the Firespray doing bombing like 3-4 years before the Empire even existed for like a decade of canonicity before XWM came out. FFG really did **** up Imperials Heavy Bomber, tho, of this they have no excuse.

33 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Well, other than movie and TV content showcasing other factions doing it (CoughYwingsCough).

And also the Firespray doing bombing like 3-4 years before the Empire even existed for like a decade of canonicity before XWM came out. FFG really did **** up Imperials Heavy Bomber, tho, of this they have no excuse.

The problem is also one of game design. Bombs hurt the Empire more than they do any other faction, so why give those other factions the strongest tools to utilize those bombs? The Empire should be the best with bombs, especially considering that they have purpose built ships designed just for delivering said bombs, instead they are the worst at bombing by a huge margin. This is a failure of game design.

And if you really must bring up the *shudder* prequels, then that Firespray was operating under government contract, it certainly wasn't scum or rebel. It also completely whiffed, so I guess it still stays on theme with FFGs vision of the Empire being the worst at everything.