17 minutes ago, Tweedledope said:

Where're you guys seeing rules for Force Lightning?

14 minutes ago, JorArns said:

I believe they are referencing the Protect/Unleash power; specifically the Unleash half.

@JorArns is correct. Force Lightning is the Mastery upgrade of Unleash .

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@JorArns is correct. Force Lightning is the Mastery upgrade of Unleash .

How have I never noticed that? Thanks!

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@JorArns is correct. Force Lightning is the Mastery upgrade of Unleash .

Unleash in general can be Force Lightning, Mastery is not required (it just makes it stronger). Furthermore, Unleash is basically EVERY force power that projects harmful energy by using negative emotions, so a blast of freezing cold, actual fire, lightning, it can do whatever is appropriate for the user to be doing (for example, a character I was playing was going to get Force Fire with it if the campaign hadn't died before her fall to the dark side could happen to its full extent).

1st move as stated earlier, is awesome

2nd protect/unleash see 1st

3rd suppress you can stop force powers, duh???

First power I get is sense because 1 force die double upgrade for 2 a racks per round is just too good.

If you have 2 force dice then either move or enhance take the top.spot depending on build (if you go for agility based character enhance is too awesome, otherwise move)

10 hours ago, Silim said:

Unleash in general can be Force Lightning, Mastery is not required (it just makes it stronger). Furthermore, Unleash is basically EVERY force power that projects harmful energy by using negative emotions, so a blast of freezing cold, actual fire, lightning, it can do whatever is appropriate for the user to be doing (for example, a character I was playing was going to get Force Fire with it if the campaign hadn't died before her fall to the dark side could happen to its full extent).

Not quite. If you read the full description text for the Mastery upgrade, the upgrade itself is specifically referred to as "the dreaded Force Lightning".

Enhance is #1 in my books, followed by Sense (without the mind-reading stuff). Those two really embody the more subtle aspects of the Force as portrayed in the movies and shows. Influence is okay, but doesn't feel quite right, and Move is...*sigh*...never mind. Everything else to me veers too close to video-games/EU junk...which is not to say they are badly implemented, just not my faves.

I think you could play an entire campaign with nothing more than the above 4 (properly implemented) and it wouldn't lose anything from that Star Wars feeling.

On 11/9/2017 at 3:42 PM, whafrog said:

Enhance is #1 in my books, followed by Sense (without the mind-reading stuff). Those two really embody the more subtle aspects of the Force as portrayed in the movies and shows. Influence is okay, but doesn't feel quite right, and Move is...*sigh*...never mind. Everything else to me veers too close to video-games/EU junk...which is not to say they are badly implemented, just not my faves.

I think you could play an entire campaign with nothing more than the above 4 (properly implemented) and it wouldn't lose anything from that Star Wars feeling.

I almost-completely agree, i've never built a character intended for real play whose had any more than move sense and enhance (actually once I might have included influence),

well that's kind of true i've put tramp graphic's signature character Korath Lorran (sp?) into ogg dudes character generator to error check his work and tweak it to be more xp efficient, and tramp had a few upgrades of virtually every force power, i know how horrendous that sounds but in my defense I was helping him get the character he insisted on not building the character myself.

some characters could focus on predicting the future and then might need one of absol's favorite talents, and some might need force lightning/protect unleash and some might need bind/force choke . But 90% of player characters could be built with just the 4 you mentioned without loosing anything from the star wars feel.

On 11/9/2017 at 7:36 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Not quite. If you read the full description text for the Mastery upgrade, the upgrade itself is specifically referred to as "the dreaded Force Lightning".

It says MASTERING Force Lightning, not learn Force Lightning to begin with. Not every Force Lightning is as deadly as Palpatine's.

3 hours ago, Silim said:

It says MASTERING Force Lightning, not learn Force Lightning to begin with. Not every Force Lightning is as deadly as Palpatine's.

Yes, it does. Read the whole thing carefully though, as well as the opening text for the power as a whole. The Mastery Upgrade text reads:

Quote

This upgrade represents mastering the ultimate Dark Side technique, the dreaded Force Lightning . If the user is a Dark Side Force user, he may spend FP to reduce the attack's crit rating to 1.

The key difference in game mechanics between basic Unleash and Force Lightning is the Critical Rating , and the fact that Force Lightning can only be accomplished by a Dark Sider, whereas the basic Unleash power, can take various forms (such as fire, or cold, etc.), and can be used by any Force user (Light or Dark), albeit earning him or her Conflict for doing so, and has a higher Critical Rating. Canonically , Force Lightning is the purview of those fully committed to the Dark Side. Light Side Force users cannot use Force Lightning canonically.

I do like the basic one, Sense, Move, Enhance and since I tend to prefer fragile speedster, glass cannon type of fighters, the defensive boost from Sense is almost a must.

Of the more esoteric ones, I do have soft spot for Manipulate, as I like to play tinkerers as well.

However, I don't like Ebb/flow at all, as it seems it doesn't really seem to do anything from a narrative perspective, and the flavor of it is centered around fiddling with a rules mechanic.

I am also not a fan of ebb/flow. Sense is very powerful and indeed needed.

Since season 2 of "Stranger Things", I've been thinking that Influence or Misdirect might be my favourite if I ever develop a Jedi character to play (I almost exclusively GM).

Tramp, your own **** quote says MASTERING Force Lightning. Learn to read.

Also, a GM that doesn't allow a darksider to use fire/cold/acid/whatever the **** they want for their mastered Unleash and forces them to make it Force Lightning is a horrible GM.

On 11/13/2017 at 7:27 PM, Luahk said:

I am also not a fan of ebb/flow. Sense is very powerful and indeed needed.

I didn't like it at first read either for the same reasons, but I've come to change my mind. I really like the fact it's not "in your face" or particularly showy. At my table we've come to use it as a basic "behind the scenes" type force power. It gives you a lot of room to interpret how it works.

1 hour ago, Noahjam325 said:

I didn't like it at first read either for the same reasons, but I've come to change my mind. I really like the fact it's not "in your face" or particularly showy. At my table we've come to use it as a basic "behind the scenes" type force power. It gives you a lot of room to interpret how it works.

This. I LOOOOVE to death all those very subtle yet awesomely powerful powers. Ebb/Flow can really change the tide (pun intended) of a battle, but even with constant use, no one other than another sensitive, and one with acute senses at that, would even know that it was being used.

Which is awesome .

2 hours ago, Absol197 said:

This. I LOOOOVE to death all those very subtle yet awesomely powerful powers. Ebb/Flow can really change the tide (pun intended) of a battle, but even with constant use, no one other than another sensitive, and one with acute senses at that, would even know that it was being used.

Which is awesome .

The thing is, from a narrative perspective, it feels like it doesn't do anything interesting. I like subtle as much as the next geek, but this veers too far into vagueness regarding it's concept and feels like its more about it's rules mechanics than in universe flavor.

In addition, its frankly too damned universally useful. The mechanic that you roll it with any other skill check makes it a nobrainer choice for virtually any build. And if something is a nobrainer, it's most likely boring.

But yeah, subtle is cool.

19 hours ago, Silim said:

Tramp, your own **** quote says MASTERING Force Lightning. Learn to read.

Also, a GM that doesn't allow a darksider to use fire/cold/acid/whatever the **** they want for their mastered Unleash and forces them to make it Force Lightning is a horrible GM.

You're missing the point. It is only the Mastery upgrade which specifically even uses the term Force Lightning . and it also specifically establishes it as fully Dark Side. It also makes it clear that Force Lightning is beyond normal uses of Unleash , but is something much more powerful and something to be dreaded . This is backed up by canon as well. Force Lightning is the most powerful form of the Unleash power, and is exclusively Dark Side.

Except for that Kel Dor Jedi Master (was it Master Plo? I don't think it was, but it might have been) who was famous for developing his "Electric Judgement," which was light-side fueled Force Lightning, proving it can be done, only that it's very rare.

Tramp, you're awesome, but you have a tendency to get hung up on the little details of canon.

3 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Except for that Kel Dor Jedi Master (was it Master Plo? I don't think it was, but it might have been) who was famous for developing his "Electric Judgement," which was light-side fueled Force Lightning.

Tramp, you're awesome, but you have a tendency to get hung up on the little details of canon.

Yeah, but that "ability' of Plo Koon's is no longer canon. That and it wasn't potentially lethal , like Force Lightning .

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what's the difference? The Unleash power was, if I recall, written before the canon purge, so it was canon at the time the power was developed and the paragraph in contention composed, and...it's still shooting lightning out of your fingers, which 99.9% of people are going to call Force Lightning.

Yes, absolutely true that it's not going to be nearly as lethal without the use of that Mastery upgrade, which requires you to be a Dark sider. But that doesn't change that you're using Force Lightning without it. Only not at it's full potential.

Just now, Absol197 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what's the difference? The Unleash power was, if I recall, written before the canon purge, so it was canon at the time the power was developed and the paragraph in contention composed, and...it's still shooting lightning out of your fingers, which 99.9% of people are going to call Force Lightning.

Yes, absolutely true that it's not going to be nearly as lethal without the use of that Mastery upgrade, which requires you to be a Dark sider. But that doesn't change that you're using Force Lightning without it. Only not at it's full potential.

And then there's the Baran Do Mentor benefit in Disciples of Harmony that lets you use Unleash a couple of times a session without Conflict. If that wasn't written to enable "Electric Judgement"-esque fun I'll eat my hat.

2 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what's the difference? The Unleash power was, if I recall, written before the canon purge, so it was canon at the time the power was developed and the paragraph in contention composed, and...it's still shooting lightning out of your fingers, which 99.9% of people are going to call Force Lightning.

Yes, absolutely true that it's not going to be nearly as lethal without the use of that Mastery upgrade, which requires you to be a Dark sider. But that doesn't change that you're using Force Lightning without it. Only not at it's full potential.

The difference is partially down to the intent of Lucasfilm. Even before the "canon purge", it was pretty clear that Force Lightning was intentionally established by LFL to be the purview of Dark Siders, and a very powerful and corrupt ability. Even the "so-called" Electric Judgment" had its dangers because it was still associated with anger and aggression. It should also be noted that "electric Judgement" only appeared in a video game, with possible inclusion in the NJO books.

7 minutes ago, Kaigen said:

And then there's the Baran Do Mentor benefit in Disciples of Harmony that lets you use Unleash a couple of times a session without Conflict. If that wasn't written to enable "Electric Judgement"-esque fun I'll eat my hat.

What kind of sauce would you want on that?

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference is partially down to the intent of Lucasfilm. Even before the "canon purge", it was pretty clear that Force Lightning was intentionally established by LFL to be the purview of Dark Siders, and a very powerful and corrupt ability. Even the "so-called" Electric Judgment" had its dangers because it was still associated with anger and aggression. It should also be noted that "electric Judgement" only appeared in a video game, with possible inclusion in the NJO books.

Eh. I have little desire to continue arguing about it. I've never been much of a canon-hawk, and from my point of view:

1) Unleash is a power that lets you shoot energy from your hands.

2) Electricity is a form of energy.

3) We have previously-canon evidence that Force Lightning, or something very similar, can be used by a light-sider, albeit at the risk of going too far and slipping into the dark.

4) The mentor option for the Force tradition native to the species of the only Jedi Master who was known to use the power in 3) allows you to use Unleash without gaining Conflict every so often.

5) Unleash is a power that can be used by anyone, but gets significantly more potent very quickly if you are a dark-sider.

All of these things combined mean to me that Unleash, at any level, can allow someone to use the Force to shoot lightning. Which is all I need to call something Force Lightning. It just requires you to be a Dark-sider who has advanced all the way down the tree to be the best it can be, which makes sense based on what we've been shown. Only a very powerful and corrupt person can use the ability to shoot lightning to its fullest extent (i.e. can "Master" the ability).

If your definition is more strict, then so be it. Mine isn't .