On 11/6/2017 at 10:54 AM, Hannes Solo said:The question is why didn't they nerf TLT to the ground. Miranda isn't that bad. She is one of the more balanced shield recharge abilitys.
because they want folks to buy Aggressors FIRST... give it about 3 or 4 more months then TLT will get nerferd!!
1 minute ago, Swedge said:because they want folks to buy Aggressors FIRST... give it about 3 or 4 more months then TLT will get nerferd!!
That actually gives me hope.
57 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:That actually gives me hope.
FFG erratas are built on hope!
7 hours ago, Keffisch said:FFG erratas are built on hope!
so would you call it "A new Hope"
20 hours ago, LordBlades said:I took a break from playing Scum after the FAQ, because I feel they're no longer good enough. I build a list, then I ask myself 'is this better than Dash Miranda?' So far the answer has been 'no' every time. So why play it over Dash Miranda then ?
Additionally, on most podcasts I've listened to, there is a lot of talk about how Rebels or the assumed resurgence of Imperial aces will influence the upcoming meta, and very little about Scum, which leads me to think many of them don't really feel Scum will be a strong force in defining the new meta.
Maybe somebody will come up with some new Scum lists that are good enough to compete with Rebels, but for now the outlook is pretty grim, at least in my view.
I found this video that does a good job explaining Cad Bane vrs Sabine. Like I said, Sabine is only slightly better and when you’re using bomlet generator it is possible for Bane to even exceed Sabine. As far as I’m concerned Scum still have a ? in this ? race. ?
19 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Welcome to the Punisher crew then! There are several ways to play the Punisher. The most promising at the moment is Deathrain with Bomblet Generator, Lightweight Frame, and a either Accuracy Corrector or Advanced Sensors and Unguided Rockets. Then you have Redline, who can use any unmodified ordnance. A lot of people swear by FCS, one set of unmodified range 2-3 ordnance (like Plasma Torps), and Cluster Missiles. I believe that's way too expensive and strip FCS and Cluster Missiles. This version has the choice of LRS instead of Guidance Chips, too. This way seems outdated with the arrival of Harpoons making Redlines ability obsolete. Finally, you can run the generics as impressive hunks of stats with Lightweight Frame and Unguided Rockets.
Oh and maybe you could attempt something with Minefield Mapper, but it isn't too exciting.
I may try this:
Punishment (100)
•"Redline" (46) - TIE Punisher
Fire Control System (2), Extra Munitions (2), Seismic Torpedo (2), Concussion Missiles (4), Cluster Missiles (4), Bomblet Generator (3), Autothrusters (2)
•"Whisper" (40) - TIE Phantom
Push The Limit (3), Fire Control System (2), Intelligence Agent (1), Lightweight Frame (2)
•"Wampa" (14) - TIE Fighter
Yeah, I know. Whisper without Advanced Cloaking Device. She’s actually better than the TIE/fo with 2 shields instead of 1 and with Lightweight Frame, she actually gets 3 defence dice naturally, and she just does so much damage. I will probably cloak fir initial approach, get a target lock and Decloak in range for a nice range one, hopefully out of arc.
As far as Redline goes, I wanted 2 different range sets for missiles, one that can be fired close up, the other that can fire from long range. I figure the two I picked do the job. I took Autothrusters instead of Lightweight Frame cause it’s just too good to pass up, especially if I encounter Miranda. And yes, I know, I took Seismic Torpedoes. Everyone has been avoiding them like the plague, but I don’t see why. In one round, Redline can, fire missiles, drop a bomb, and blow up an asteroid. Who wouldn’t like 3 attacks in 1 round.
After all the above, I didn’t have many points left, but I wanted a ship that wouldn’t be ignored (in other words equal in threat in its own way) and with Wampa’s ability of doing direct damage, it will not be ignored.
This list may be crap, but I’m going to give it a few plays to see what the best strategy is and if it can work. I know I only took 1 Punisher, but you may be right about the point cost, though Miranda (fully loaded) usually does the same, even to the point of only being able to afford only 2 ships.
2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:I found this video that does a good job explaining Cad Bane vrs Sabine. Like I said, Sabine is only slightly better and when you’re using bomlet generator it is possible for Bane to even exceed Sabine. As far as I’m concerned Scum still have a ? in this ? race. ?
You have a bomblet generator. You roll 2 dice. Statistically, you will:
- roll 2 hits/crits 25% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage, Cad does nothing.
- roll 1 hit/crit, 1 focus/blank 50% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage. Cad rerolls, getting a focus/blank (50% of the time, worse than Sabine), hit 37.5% of the time, equal to Sabine vs same target) or crit (12.5% of the time, better than Sabine).
- roll 2 blanks/focus, 25% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage. Cad rerolls getting 2 focus/blanks (25% chance, worse than Sabine), 1 hit (37.5% of the time, equal to Sabine vs. same targey), 1 crit (12.5% of the time, better), 2 hits/crits (25% of the time, better).
Cad is really better than Sabine about 15% of the time (this is assuming rolling a crit on bomblet is always better than rolling a hit, not true in practice). For the other 85%, Sabine either does more damage, or she does same damage, but can distribute 1 to another target. I think calling that 'slightly better' is a huge understatement.
QuoteWhat other ships in the Imperial arsenal makes up for flying overcosted ships that cannot perform their basic duty well, which in this case is bombing and using ordnance?
And don't you think we'd see more of them placing higher in world if that was the case?
During the reign of the Toiletseats(tm) an entire faction (Rebels) was sidelined, now that Rebels are back, and both they and Scum have access to so many turrets and strong auto damage (Bombs) on cheap platforms another faction has been sidelined - BECAUSE THEY PAY PREMIUM FOR GREEN DICE and ships with fixed firing arcs, which are no longer worth a ****.
If Miranda and/or the k-wing did not exist, would you still feel the Punisher was so substandard? Compared to any other ship, it IS a good ship, so saying it’s substandard is only your subjective opinion, not a critical one. Unfortunately the theme of the empire, doesn’t have turrets and because of fans wanting to see cannon and EU contents as they were shown in their movie/book I’m afraid they won’t be giving the Empire many turreted ships. As I’ve said, I have not seen Punishers against k-wings (boy would I love to), but I don’t think that going toe to toe, one ship would would have a better average of victories than the other.
The two ships were built for the same wave and in many ways have a counter for one another. The k-wing has TLT, the Punisher has an extra missile slot and is autothrusters capable. The k-wing has slam, the Punisher has boost and a slightly better dial. The k-wing has a crew slot, the Punisher has a Systems Upgrade slot. The ships’ stats are virtually identical 2,1,5,4 > 2,1,6,3. Though I will definitely concede the pilot skill issue you outlined. Not sure why they did that since both ships are from the same wave.
Now where the Empire is hurting is not having a Sabine Wren or a Cad Bane. Maybe there is a card in the works, idk, but it did take FF a while between Sabine and Bane, so don’t hold your breath. And with the fact that the bomber and Punisher don’t have crew (unless the bomber becomes a shuttle) I’m not sure what they would do.
Do you really believe that the Empire is now being sidelined? The premium that you say Empire players pay is interesting considering most Rebel ships are more expensive. What you do pay for though is not only green dice, but also having barrel roll on EVERY Imperial ship not to mention the evade action and if that were not enough lets throw boost on as well. So if an Imperial ship can’t get out of arc with boost and barrel roll, then evade and green dice have their back. I know you don’t like green dice. But I guess you haven’t been on the other side where your ships finally gets those dam arc dodgers in arc, and rolls a couple of hits just to be denied by the fist full of green that the Imperial player paid a premium for. I’m trying not to bring up the Emperor here, but changing a die to whatever you want just guarantees that evade.
As far as whether we would see more of the Punisher or not, I actually can’t say. Bombs were out for a while and no one used them. Sabine came out and was out for a while and no one used them. Suddenly one day we had nothing but. Probably because the rebels were too tired of being sidelined. So just cause we don’t see things much, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s bad. People tend to group around what works and is proven, not what is untried and suspected of being bad. Look at missiles and torpedoes, how long did those take before they caught on, even after FF came out with guidance chips and munitions failsafe? It wasn’t really until the JumpMaster until you started hearing things like “alpha strike”. So just because someone hasn’t played the list is not a good gauge.
18 hours ago, Keffisch said:The TL from FCS doesn't kick in until after you have performed your attack, so you can't spend the lock in the same round.
Miranda also isn't being taken off the board because she can slam out of arc, out of range if running away, or into R1 if she needs to, to avoid the missile and she can fire back with her turret (which is fantastic vs agi 1 btw).
Redline cannot do that.
And remember, she has PS 8, versus Redline's 7. Just to reiterate, as she is undercosted compared to Redline, Miranda has stronger wingmen as well.
Yes, you have to use an action for your first target lock, boohoo.
I really think you overestimate the power of the slam ability. Yes it is good, but it does mean you cannot fire for the round. Also there are few players that have the spacial awearness to maneuver on a crowded map, let alone do two maneuvers back to back. No k-wing can slam into range 1 and fire, because they can’t fire. If your opponent is doing that, he is cheating. ?
As far as being able to jump out of range, I have to call you on that one too. If you are in range one and a k-wing does a slam, the Punisher should still be in range with an equal length beginning maneuver and a boost. If you’re not at range one, you’re better off breaking off and coming in again, using asteroids as cover.
As far as your initial approach, have you heard of the rule of 11? If you have, stop complaining and try to outpilot your opponent, cause it sounds like he is outpiloting you. If you haven’t heard of it, I recommend you watch the video. It really good.
19 hours ago, Keffisch said:There is a system which can do that actually, it is called Math. See the wonderful posts from MajorJuggler on the matter.
Balance is possible - just not at the stage where X-Wing is now - but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to fly all the ships in the game and have them perform in their intended role.
Well what can I say... first, please include a link to Majorjuggler’s posts, that would be good to see. Second I don’t think so.
Let me qualify that. I don’t think the game designers with current intellect and training can do it. If any one of the designers had an advanced math degree, we may be talking. In order to create math that could handle actions that don’t have a mathematical computation like, gaining a free action or being able to barrel roll. These abilities don’t have a direct cause and affect like taking a focus action or an evade. So how do you factor that in. It’s fine if someone gives it a point system and says, barrel roll is worth 2 points in this equation, but 2 points with respect to what? And what if another ability doesn’t have a direct mathematical effect, but does affect those same actions? Now we really have gone off the home grown point system’s reservation. These things can’t be factored in without advanced mathematical algorythems and I don’t think the designers have that kind of education. Don’t get me wrong, im sure they do their best, but I can’t see them handling those theorems. If you can, or Majorjuggler can, then that is great. I wish FF would take advantage of your knowledge and experience. Many people suspected that X-Wing had a point system when it first started, but at some point it seemed like they abandoned it, probably because of what I said above.
19 hours ago, Keffisch said:I think I speak for almost everyone when I say that X-Wing players would like to see each ship do well in their intended role, with a few variations for flavor between the factions. Nobody wants identical factions/ships.
You also hit the nail on your head with that last bit, for what Rebels lack in arc dodgers, they have in staying power and damage output, particularly VERSUS arc dodgers. Still, I expect to see more Imperial aces going forward.
It doesn’t sound like we disagree here, but you are still going to have one faction’s ship being better in a given roll than the others and the slack taken up by ships that have other rolls. So if Rebels have the best bomber, Imperials pick up that slack by having better ships in other areas. Again to make them absolutely equal, then you might as well just give them the same stats and call it a day.
19 hours ago, Keffisch said:This is incorrect, your opponents list and skill is also a factor.
And here's the kicker, when his ships are undercosted, has access to a ton of abilities that lets him respond to everything you do (just try to fly PS 10 Adv. Sensors Nym and you'll see how easy it is, or pre-slam nerf Miranda) compared to yours, then the value of your already overpriced ships is skewed even further.
The TIE Punisher is NOT a good ship for the points because you need to load it with ordnance in order for it to work and it has no access to regen, movement shenanigans or turrets, and that; for those points - makes it a dead ship. It needs a cost reduction, unlimited ordnance types with the purchase of a single card of that type, or something similar. It cannot compete with a toolbox ship which can do everything, performs better, and is cheaper.
Not mentioning something does not make me incorrect. I did wrongly omit skill though, yes.
I have flown against PS 10 Adv. Sensor Nym and pre-nerf Miranda in the same squad, and beat them. No it wasn’t easy, but I still don’t think that any of that is broken (aside from how adv. slam used to be).
Please see my post above for comparison of the two ships. Perhaps the k-wing does come out better than the Punisher, but not by a lot and that also does not make it a bad or dead ship. Just because something is a close second, does not make it garbage... sorry I guess it’s a close third cause of the Scurrg. Actually here’s a telling question, which do you think is better, the Scurrg or the k-wing? If we go by what you’ve said, that the ship is too much of a multi tool, you should be saying the Scurrg, but I’m pretty sure you’ll say the k-wing. The Scurrg actually has more possibilities than the k-wing. Honestly after playing and playing against both, I’d have to say they are both strong in their own way, but one isn’t the master of the other.
And again, I don’t see them giving Imperials a Turret because of thematic reasons. There is a 2 point difference in cost between the Punisher and k-wing and another 1 point difference between k-wing and Scurrg. Does this equal things out? Maybe, maybe not, but if it doesn’t the Punisher is not owed many points if any.
19 hours ago, Keffisch said:Anecdotal evidence is just that. I.e. I have beaten pre-nerf Whisper with two Rookie Pilots many times (when training to beat Whisper back in the day). This does not make Whisper bad or T65s good. But you should be able to tell at a glance which ship is better for the points..
That being said, how did the JumpMaster even make it to print? You could see it right out of the box having seen it for only 2 seconds.
And if we go by what you’re saying here we don’t need mathematics at all, we can just feel our way through building a system. ?
20 hours ago, Keffisch said:And a Nym player can still lose, as can everyone. But the vast majority of unbalanced games will end as expected, in favor of the strongest list.
Yep, x-wing is an unbalanced game. I do think FF is trying to balance things, but as I’ve said, I don’t think that every faction’s bomber should be equal, or every faction’s arc dodger, or every faction’s tank, etc, etc. If you want to play a good bomber, play that faction, if you want to play a good arc dodger play that faction, if you want to play a good tank, play that faction. Yep, it means you have to switch factions if you want to play a given roll. I don’t know of any game that doesn’t have this kind of mechanic. The ones that don’t, usually don’t have much depth.
2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:You have a bomblet generator. You roll 2 dice. Statistically, you will:
- roll 2 hits/crits 25% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage, Cad does nothing.
- roll 1 hit/crit, 1 focus/blank 50% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage. Cad rerolls, getting a focus/blank (50% of the time, worse than Sabine), hit 37.5% of the time, equal to Sabine vs same target) or crit (12.5% of the time, better than Sabine).
- roll 2 blanks/focus, 25% of the time. Sabine adds 1 damage. Cad rerolls getting 2 focus/blanks (25% chance, worse than Sabine), 1 hit (37.5% of the time, equal to Sabine vs. same targey), 1 crit (12.5% of the time, better), 2 hits/crits (25% of the time, better).
Cad is really better than Sabine about 15% of the time (this is assuming rolling a crit on bomblet is always better than rolling a hit, not true in practice). For the other 85%, Sabine either does more damage, or she does same damage, but can distribute 1 to another target. I think calling that 'slightly better' is a huge understatement.
I’m guessing you didn’t watch the vid.
At times Bane can actually out perform Sabine. It’s all dependant on rolls. And if you use Bane, you’re obviously going to use the bombs that require dice rolls. If you make a Scum bomber list, you’re foolish if you don’t include him (unless you want to go with all fixed damaged bombs). And yes a crit is almost always better than a hit.
Im not sure what’s up on this site, but it really seams that if everyone on this site doesn’t have the number one card, the card may be number 2 by a slight margin, then it’s garbage!
Maybe someone can math that out, but the margin isn’t as great as you’re thinking.
The Scurrg bomber is better than the k-wing for only 1 extra point, but I still think the K-wing is an awesome ship.
Now if the designers gave Sabine’s ability to Bane and that was put on the Scurrg, don’t you think that would be broken? Yep, Sabine is better (not by a lot), but then the Scurrg is better. It all evens out in the wash and discarding Bane because it’s not as good as your competitor’s card is foolish, because the fact is Bane will help a Scum list.
@JediPartisan See, 46 point Redline just doesn't have the same capabilities to avoid damage Miranda has. Both have the same hitpoints, but Miranda has higher PS, so she can PS-kill more things than Redline, and she has SLAM, being vastly superior when dodging arcs, while also having a turret, making arcdodging even easier.
Redline has 2 turns to live at max. His dial and repositioning aren't enough to avoid damage while being relevant to the game, his pilot skill isn't high enough to remove ships before they can attack him. He has enough hitpoints to relatively reliably shoot once, so your best bet is to hope for a one for one trade. For that you need to be as cheap as possible, so more trades are favourable for you on points. 2 points of Extra Munitions are fine, though, to discourage your opponent from ignoring him.
Couple of minor things: Lightweight Frame offers more durability then Autothrusters, because both offer roughly the same improvement of odds, but Lightweight Frame is always on. On Redline the free ordnance improvers are also very strong considerations, just to make sure his one big shot matters. Aiming his point cost at 33-34 points allows you to slot him into other imperial alpha strike lists, which is very likely to be the way to go, since one big shot isn't enough to kill most ships.
If you want a Punisher that survives a bit, Bomblet Deathrain (with Advanced Sensors) has very strong repositioning. He still dies to turrets, but man is he fun to fly.
3 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:@JediPartisan See, 46 point Redline just doesn't have the same capabilities to avoid damage Miranda has. Both have the same hitpoints, but Miranda has higher PS, so she can PS-kill more things than Redline, and she has SLAM, being vastly superior when dodging arcs, while also having a turret, making arcdodging even easier.
Redline has 2 turns to live at max. His dial and repositioning aren't enough to avoid damage while being relevant to the game, his pilot skill isn't high enough to remove ships before they can attack him. He has enough hitpoints to relatively reliably shoot once, so your best bet is to hope for a one for one trade. For that you need to be as cheap as possible, so more trades are favourable for you on points. 2 points of Extra Munitions are fine, though, to discourage your opponent from ignoring him.
Couple of minor things: Lightweight Frame offers more durability then Autothrusters, because both offer roughly the same improvement of odds, but Lightweight Frame is always on. On Redline the free ordnance improvers are also very strong considerations, just to make sure his one big shot matters. Aiming his point cost at 33-34 points allows you to slot him into other imperial alpha strike lists, which is very likely to be the way to go, since one big shot isn't enough to kill most ships.
If you want a Punisher that survives a bit, Bomblet Deathrain (with Advanced Sensors) has very strong repositioning. He still dies to turrets, but man is he fun to fly.
Thanks, good advice.
i’ll Keep tweeting until I get a list that works. ?
32 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:If Miranda and/or the k-wing did not exist, would you still feel the Punisher was so substandard? Compared to any other ship, it IS a good ship
Yes.
The Punisher IS substandard. COmpared to every other ship in the game except maybe the Imperial firespray.
You may not like it, but it's simple maths.
I mean, let's look at some fairly meh ships to begin with: the B Wing and the G1A.
B Wing: 3/1/3/5, 22 points. Can load 2 torpedoes for 5 more.
G1A: 3/1/4/4, 23 points.
Punisher: 2/1/6/3, 21 points.
A single point of red in arc usually costs around 5 points, c.f. the difference between the TIE Fighter and the TIE Striker.
The punisher gains 1 hp at the cost of 1 red, it also gains a better dial.
Its aces have no epts and low PS.
If you want to load it heavily, it'll just die before you can shoot everything you've loaded.
It's overcosted by like 4 or 5 points. It should cost what it does naked, loaded out with EM and Plasmas.
You can keep raging against it all you want, but the Punisher is the worst. Ship. In. The. Game. Bar none.
8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Yes.
The Punisher IS substandard. COmpared to every other ship in the game except maybe the Imperial firespray.
You may not like it, but it's simple maths.
I mean, let's look at some fairly meh ships to begin with: the B Wing and the G1A.
B Wing: 3/1/3/5, 22 points. Can load 2 torpedoes for 5 more.
G1A: 3/1/4/4, 23 points.
Punisher: 2/1/6/3, 21 points.
A single point of red in arc usually costs around 5 points, c.f. the difference between the TIE Fighter and the TIE Striker.
The punisher gains 1 hp at the cost of 1 red, it also gains a better dial.
Its aces have no epts and low PS.
If you want to load it heavily, it'll just die before you can shoot everything you've loaded.
It's overcosted by like 4 or 5 points. It should cost what it does naked, loaded out with EM and Plasmas.
You can keep raging against it all you want, but the Punisher is the worst. Ship. In. The. Game. Bar none.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion, but don’t share it.
16 points would be WAY to low for the entry point of a ship with 2 bomb slots.
I could just see 4 or 5 bombers on the board, each with EM and Seismic charges, and one having bomlet gen. Yeah, that wouldn’t be broken.
When they make the cost of the ship, they do consider what upgrade slots it has too. The other ships you listed, don’t have even 1 bomb slot.
No it wouldn't because they'd all be PS2. And have 2 dice with minimal mods.
You, like FFG, are dramatically overrating slots. Slots are useless unless you fill them, and filling them takes points.
The Punisher and the Bomber are about as efficient as each other, in terms of HP and green dice.
The Punisher costs 5 points more, and has no EPTs and nothing above PS7.
Your opinion is wrong. Saying it's your opinion doesn't stop that being the case.
Edited by thespaceinvader59 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:I’m guessing you didn’t watch the vid.
At times Bane can actually out perform Sabine. It’s all dependant on rolls. And if you use Bane, you’re obviously going to use the bombs that require dice rolls. If you make a Scum bomber list, you’re foolish if you don’t include him (unless you want to go with all fixed damaged bombs). And yes a crit is almost always better than a hit.
Im not sure what’s up on this site, but it really seams that if everyone on this site doesn’t have the number one card, the card may be number 2 by a slight margin, then it’s garbage!
Maybe someone can math that out, but the margin isn’t as great as you’re thinking.
The Scurrg bomber is better than the k-wing for only 1 extra point, but I still think the K-wing is an awesome ship.
Now if the designers gave Sabine’s ability to Bane and that was put on the Scurrg, don’t you think that would be broken? Yep, Sabine is better (not by a lot), but then the Scurrg is better. It all evens out in the wash and discarding Bane because it’s not as good as your competitor’s card is foolish, because the fact is Bane will help a Scum list.
I'm at work, so I didn't watch it,but then no internet video can really change the underlying math of the game, and by math, Sabine is better at least 85% of the time, and about 50% of the time provides significantly more damage (mathed out in my post above). That's significantly better, not 'slightly better'.
.Now if the designers gave Sabine’s ability to Bane and that was put on the Scurrg, don’t you think that would be broken?' You can already do that on the Rebel Scurrg, by putting Sabine on it. If it's not broken for Rebels, why would it be for Scum?
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:No it wouldn't because they'd all be PS2. And have 2 dice with minimal mods.
You, like FFG, are dramatically overrating slots. Slots are useless unless you fill them, and filling them takes points.
The Punisher and the Bomber are about as efficient as each other, in terms of HP and green dice.
The Punisher costs 5 points more, and has no EPTs and nothing above PS7.
Your opinion is wrong. Saying it's your opinion doesn't stop that being the case.
This is all true. The Punisher is terrible.
Man, @JediPartisan, you type so eloquently and well, I almost believe what you’re selling. I love the Punisher, I don’t know why, she disappoints more than any other girl, and @Admiral Deathrain, @thespaceinvader And @Biophysical are correct. Mathematically, PS wise, cost wise, firing arc wise, pilot ability wise, durability wise, duty cycle wise, personal piloting experience wise, it’s the worst ordinance carrier in the game by far, period. From it’s birth, till now.
“Sad ? her pilots are” - Yoda
Edited by clanofwolves11 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:No it wouldn't because they'd all be PS2. And have 2 dice with minimal mods.
You, like FFG, are dramatically overrating slots. Slots are useless unless you fill them, and filling them takes points.
The Punisher and the Bomber are about as efficient as each other, in terms of HP and green dice.
The Punisher costs 5 points more, and has no EPTs and nothing above PS7.
Your opinion is wrong. Saying it's your opinion doesn't stop that being the case.
Minor quibbles.
[Upgrades] Not all slots are equal. Some slots are more cost effective at adding damage to lists. Access to Bomblets is probably big damage increase per points over single-use bombs, for example. For systems slots, X Points invested is probably worth about as much as X+1 in many other slots. I'd probably rather have Accuracy Corrector over Unguided Rockets, for example. Of course, similar things can probably be said about Elite upgrades. 
I'd say half a point for the Punisher over a Bomber. FFG certainly overvalues slots, but having a variety of slots often allows a ship to leverage the total cost better. That's a large part of why they had to nerf the Jumpmaster.
[Toughness] Punisher is definitely a little bit tougher defensively than a Bomber. 9 HP (three of which is shields) on 1+LWF green will last longer than 6 hull on 2+LWF. Against 3 dice with a focus, and LWF but otherwise unmodified green dice, a Punisher takes on average 5.9 attacks to die, compared to 4.9 on a Bomber (without LWF, it's 4.8 vs 3.9). I'd say taking an extra shot to kill is worth some fraction between one or two points, particularly because LWF will almost always proc on a Punisher, but not necessarily on a Bomber.
[Movement] The Bomber dial is a hair better, but the Punisher has Boost, which is (I think) better than Barrel Roll. That might be worth some fraction of a point (but probably not a full point).
My Conclusion? Punishers should probably cost around 2 points more than Bombers. I've also got no real problem with a Bomber being a point cheaper, either. That puts me at 3-4 points cheaper for a Punisher, compare your 4-5.
5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:Man, @JediPartisan, you type so eloquently and well, I almost believe what you’re selling. I love the Punisher, I don’t know why, she disappoints more than any other girl, and @Admiral Deathrain, @thespaceinvader And @Biophysical are correct. Mathematically, PS wise, cost wise, firing arc wise, pilot ability wise, durability wise, duty cycle wise, personal piloting experience wise, it’s the worst ordinance carrier in the game by far, period. From it’s birth, till now.
“Sad ? her pilots are” - Yoda
I’m not actually disagreeing with the contention that the Punisher is not as good as the other bombers, but I still don’t think it’s a bad ship, but I have a hard time letting go. ?
Even if they just boosted its primary to 3 dice (much like the Scurrg) I don’t think it would change much. I guess you wouldn’t have to carry missiles and torps to have a decent attack. Not really sure why it only has 2 dice primary, probably because of the bomber (its younger brother). I could easily agree to the fact that the primary should be increased to 3 dice, but would that make any difference in your eyes? I don’t usually play Imperial (Rebel or Scum for me), so my opinion doesn’t matter as much.
I do have to say I find your opinions (as Imperial players) fascinating. It’s fun to hear what Imperial players think of something like the k-wing. Rebels will generally say, it’s a good sturdy ship with ok offence and slam is ok, but no miracle and sucks to lose your attack. To hear imperial players you would think the k-wing was a tank that can attack anywhere on the board, as though through teleportation.
I look at the Punisher and I think, “Ok, another Rebel ship, oh no wait, it’s Imperial”. ? Rebels are used to ships just like the Punisher.
And for the record, there are many ships that most consider unplayable, but for the one pilot, who’s ability just makes it too good. Take Biggs (prenerf) for example. No T65 is worth playing currently and I think even Imperial players can agree on that one.
5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Minor quibbles.
[Upgrades] Not all slots are equal. Some slots are more cost effective at adding damage to lists. Access to Bomblets is probably big damage increase per points over single-use bombs, for example. For systems slots, X Points invested is probably worth about as much as X+1 in many other slots. I'd probably rather have Accuracy Corrector over Unguided Rockets, for example. Of course, similar things can probably be said about Elite upgrades.
[Toughness] Punisher is definitely a little bit tougher defensively than a Bomber. 9 HP (three of which is shields) on 1+LWF green will last longer than 6 hull on 2+LWF. Against 3 dice with a focus, and LWF but otherwise unmodified green dice, a Punisher takes on average 5.9 attacks to die, compared to 4.9 on a Bomber (without LWF, it's 4.8 vs 3.9). I'd say taking an extra shot to kill is worth some fraction between one or two points, particularly because LWF will almost always proc on a Punisher, but not necessarily on a Bomber.
[Movement] The Bomber dial is a hair better, but the Punisher has Boost, which is (I think) better than Barrel Roll. That might be worth some fraction of a point (but probably not a full point).
My Conclusion? Punishers should probably cost around 2 points more than Bombers. I've also got no real problem with a Bomber being a point cheaper, either. That puts me at 3-4 points cheaper for a Punisher, compare your 4-5.
Or they could just up the primary attack to 3 dice. Personally I don’t think it changes much, but it would easily explain the extra cost.
23 hours ago, JediPartisan said:I may try this:
Punishment (100)
•"Redline" (46) - TIE Punisher
Fire Control System (2), Extra Munitions (2), Seismic Torpedo (2), Concussion Missiles (4), Cluster Missiles (4), Bomblet Generator (3), Autothrusters (2)
•"Whisper" (40) - TIE Phantom
Push The Limit (3), Fire Control System (2), Intelligence Agent (1), Lightweight Frame (2)
•"Wampa" (14) - TIE Fighter
Yeah, I know. Whisper without Advanced Cloaking Device. She’s actually better than the TIE/fo with 2 shields instead of 1 and with Lightweight Frame, she actually gets 3 defence dice naturally, and she just does so much damage. I will probably cloak fir initial approach, get a target lock and Decloak in range for a nice range one, hopefully out of arc.
On Whisper, I might drop FCS to Collision Detector, and swap PTL for Predator. Your dial gets opened a bit more, your rerolls get a bit more flexible, and you can decloak without worrying too much about debris clouds...
..... Why are people still talking about Whisper without VI AND ACD in this age? In this economy??????? Really??
4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:..... Why are people still talking about Whisper without VI AND ACD in this age? In this economy??????? Really??
Maybe they like playing with a 30% and more point handicap from turn 2 onwards
8 hours ago, JediPartisan said:Or they could just up the primary attack to 3 dice. Personally I don’t think it changes much, but it would easily explain the extra cost.
I think I'd rather have 17 point Punisher with 2 dice than a 21 pointer with 3 dice. I kinda think a 3-dice Punisher would be like 2 points too cheap (4x with Col.Det, LWF, and Siesmic... nasty...), and there'd be less incentive to take secondary weapons. I'd rather they add cheapness, or add more toughness (2/1/7/4 might be a good statline).
Edited by theBitterFigI like that this thread was ventured from Miranda nerf speculation into a debate of the worth of a punisher. You guys are doing my work of deflection for me. Keep it up!