1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Slow moving? 3-SLAM-3 is on par with the fastest ship in the game, and SLAM is the most flexible repositioning action in the game.

2 attack? Her ability makes her 3 pretty reliably even when she's not running TLT.

1 agility? C3PO can fix that issue, and regen in combination with SLAM to dodge arcs and run away makes it mostly irrelevant.

Miranda is many things, but slow moving and 2 attack, aren't among them.

Slamming means she can’t attack. So you have to choose between moving well or attacking. Not so great in my opinion.

Furthermore, how can she regen AND slam? Slamming means she can’t use her regenerate ability. Flying Miranda is all about compromising.

9 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

Slamming means she can’t attack. So you have to choose between moving well or attacking. Not so great in my opinion.

Furthermore, how can she regen AND slam? Slamming means she can’t use her regenerate ability. Flying Miranda is all about compromising.

Not in the same turn, no.

Flying Miranda is about having a massive toolbox and being able to choose the one or two tools that best fit the situation. Nobody else has a toolbox with that amount of flexibility.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nobody else has a toolbox with that amount of flexibility.

Nym?

SLAM is better than even Advanced Sensors BR, Nym doesn't have regen, Nym can't take crew and System/Astro, Nym has a donut hole, etc etc etc. Higher PS is nice, but it's not everything.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

...the TLT is priced appropriately.

Trajectory Simulator: You may launch bombs using the 5 Straight template instead of dropping them. You cannot launch bombs with the "ACTION:" header in this way. 1pt System Upgrade.

...how much you want to bet, people will say, “The TIE Punisher should be nerfed, it’s too powerful and I’m tired of seeing them in the top 8.”

Um, compared to the range and "auto" damage TLT consistently does, dovetailed against other turret card selections, NO it's not priced appropriately.

I do like the sarcasm in regards to the worse ship in the game's future being a nerf target though, well played.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah, no.

The Punisher is still low PS, and any bomb can be dodged by people with higher PS and repositioning actions.

The Punisher is a turret-less and EPT-less flying brick, the addition of the Trajectory Simulator will not make it playable in comparison to the Scurrg... sadly, I own three (two still yet to be released from their space age polymer coffins).

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

SLAM is better than even Advanced Sensors BR, Nym doesn't have regen, Nym can't take crew and System/Astro, Nym has a donut hole, etc etc etc. Higher PS is nice, but it's not everything.

His ability to take an EPT compensates for those defecits, imo.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

SLAM is better than even Advanced Sensors BR, Nym doesn't have regen, Nym can't take crew and System/Astro, Nym has a donut hole, etc etc etc. Higher PS is nice, but it's not everything.

Nym can take Gonk and have regen. Talk about toolboxes.

2 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Nym can take Gonk and have regen. Talk about toolboxes.

Yes, taking regen at the expense of never having useful actions and missing out on the system slot and all the good scum crew is such a grand plan.

8 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

His ability to take an EPT compensates for those defecits, imo.

His ability to be PS10 makes some difference, sure.

Miranda's still a better ship though.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yes, taking regen at the expense of never having useful actions and missing out on the system slot and all the good scum crew is such a grand plan.

Um... if you want good Scum crew, try Cad Bane with your Bomlet Generator. Just another option or tool in the toolbox. As a matter of fact I’m surprised Cad Bane doesn’t show up more in Scurrg bomber lists, if not on the bombers, then on an accompanying ship. He is as good as Sabine in his way (with dice damaging bombs like the bomlet generator).

He's nowhere near as good as Sabine. He works on significantly fewer bombs, and he doesn't increase the damage available, just makes it a little more reliable. Plus, there just aren't many good places for him - Nym still prefers a System slot to slightly more reliable bomblets, and there are WAY better crew options available to Scum anyway.

Good Scum crew are K4, Dengar, Zuckuss, 4LOM, Boba, among others.

2 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

He is as good as Sabine in his way (with dice damaging bombs like the bomlet generator).

That is actually false. Cad Bane is strictly worse than Sabine, even with dice bombs:

-Sabine adds 1 damage always. Cad Bane on average adds 0.5 damage for 2 dice bombs, 0.75 on 3 dice bombs

-Cad Bane, unlike Sabine can't exceed the maximum damage for a given bomb

- Cad affects the ship that triggers the bomb, Sabine can choose.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

Why not? I never understood why Imperial players don’t use them.

TIE Punisher: 2,1,6,3 stats, System Upgrade, 2 Torpedoes, 2 Missiles and 2 Bomb slots along with focus, target lock and boost

K-Wing: 2,1,5,4 stats, Turret, 2 Torpedoes, 1 Missile, Crew, 2 Bomb slots along with focus, target lock and slam

They are more than a match and with native boost, they can take autothrusters, not to mention that if they use their boost, they can still fire. Or if you like you could go with Lightweight Frame and have 2 defence dice (yet another Imperial only card).

The main thing is that Imperial players don’t seem to be able to tear themselves away from their Emperor security blanket. How many times did we have to see that card? And even after nerf it’s not balanced, it is better, but still worth more than the price. But I digress, I guess I would just like to see something new from Imperial players. You guys do have some good ships at low prices.

The truth is that in a game like this there will always be cards that are just better than others. If you nerf them all, then other cards will take their place, then you’ll have to nerf those, and so on, and so on, until you have all new cards. The best that FF can do is make sure that each faction has an equal amount of powerful, but different cards. True the Scum faction lost out in the JumpMaster nerf (it was truly broken), but you still have ships like the Protectorate Starfighter with pilots like Fen Rau and his 5 die attack. And as far as Imperial ships go, very few of them have less than 3 defence dice (rare for Rebels) or if we must, how about the only cloaking ship in the game. Just saying.

They are overcosted, have low PS (7 tops), a crappy dial, no regen, no repositioning, no crew, no turret.

A base Punisher requires a lot of points sunk into it in order to compare to Miranda - whereas she just has to take a turret, Sabine + bomblet and as a bonus, she can take some ordnance on top of that.

I am also tired of the claim that Palp was a crutch, he wasn't, he was THE ONLY VIABLE option at the time (and boy I hated flying with Palp Shuttles even if it was the only way to win). As he is now, he is not bad, a few points overcosted, but the two crew cost is steep and highly restrictive - which is why he is rare.

Here is a brain tickler:

Imperial ships pay premium for green dice, in a game where green dice have been marginalized due to red-dice "creep", turrets, and auto-damage weapons.

Look at the ships that are, and have been doing well, see many green dice do you? ^^

PS. Scum ships can also cloak. Just saying.

Also, people have been asking for TLT / Miranda nerfs long before the Reign of the Toiletseats, aka Wave 8-11.

This thread will be fun to read in hindsight if a couple of months from now Miranda is still the top ship on Meta-Wing.

A ship does not have to be nerfed because it is good.

Miranda has clear counters that generally win, and she has no completely broken build like eg Nym, Torpscouts, Dengaroo, ... all had

So even if she‘s dominating in few months then that‘s not necessarily bad or a reason to nerf her.

It is if she has a clear NPE-build though

1. Miranda was nerfed.

2. FAQ only went live yesterday. Even accounting for the fact that some TOs started using it early, it would still be way too soon to make conclusions about the new meta even if a new massive wave of ships wasn't about to hit the shelves.

3. Miranda's still a very powerful and flexible omni-tool in the hands of a good player, nobody disputes that.

4. However, Miranda's ascension is a direct result of the release of Sabine Wren, It was Sabine that elevated bombs from a "nice tool against aces, but waste of points otherwise" to "I can destroy anything that isn't double decimators by bombing it to death". Before Sabine I recall playing both with and against Miranda multiple times and she was good but she was also very vulnerable to autothruster aces. While Sabine herself remained untouched, nerf to ASLAM significantly reduced the number of opportunities for using her.

5. Nerfs to ASLAM and Nym removed the two main reasons that kept autothruster aces off the tables. Miranda can still be built to counter aces with EI of course. That's nothing new though. In ye olde times of Soontir Fel's reign she could be built to do that too. You don't exactly need Sabine to kill a 3 HP ship with bombs. She wasn't used that way too frequently however, because that made her an incredibly expensive tool that was good at countering one archetype and was overpriced against everything else. I suspect EI Miranda will not be very popular for the very same reason.

6. The first question is whether Sabine coupled with a bomblet generator and/or non-ASLAM action bombs will be good enough to keep Miranda competitive against non-ace lists. Against aces that will still be very powerful, if somewhat more manageable but that's not the point. If it's not good against other lists too, this build will simply disappear from the tables.

7. The other question is whether other Miranda lists will be competitive. Since she's very ubiquitous, nerfing the bomber Miranda doesn't mean a missile Miranda or TLT/C3PO Miranda won't see play. That's not a problem per se though. The idea is not to remove Miranda from the game but to make sure she's not warping the game to its detriment. My problem with bomber Miranda was that she single-handedly wiped out the traditional imperial aces (and a-wings, and recently with Nym's help, even protectorate fighters), making the entire archetype effectively extinct and made the game less diverse and interesting as a result. Time will tell whether nerfs went far enough to change that.

8. In addition to the possibly renewed vulnerability to autothruster aces, Miranda is prone to several other counterplays. These would include a surge of high PS alpha strikers (gunboat anyone?) and/or a significant use of control effects (hey, more gunboats! Also, shadowcaster, TIE/Ds etc). There's a chance at least some of them will become a significant part of the new meta, putting high pressure on Miranda.

9. Miranda's ability does not require nerfing. She regens only when she can shoot - that's quite balanced actually. Unlike some other rebel fighters, she can't just run away and regen in a corner (granted, SLAM would make that tactic ridiculously OP). In particular, changing her ability to only trigger when firing a primary weapon would simply kill the ship competitively. She would only regen while rolling one attack die. That's effectively a "regen if you can shoot but don't" ability. You couldn't possibly justify a ship worth 40ish points that doesn't shoot most of the game. Nor could you justify a ship with that cost and stats that shoots but doesn't regen. If you really think her ability needs to be toned down you could change the rule to add/reduce number of attack dice for all the attacks that round. That's a double edged sword though. And not really necessary. Miranda's ability keeps her competitive where other K-wings aren't. It didn't make her OP. Her toolset did (and maybe still does?).

TLDR; wait and see how meta shapes up after the new wave before you ask for Miranda to get nerfed again. She's good but counterable in so many different ways that it's impossible to tell if she's gonna do well.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Sounds like Ion Turret would be the only good other option given how blah Synced, Blaster and Dorsal allegedly are.

I can’t disagree with this as a possibility, and maybe I am alone on this, but I would take this over TLT being what it is. Turrets really shouldn’t be so strong that they are nullifying arcbound jousters. I think the big game changer was TLT going out to range 3. If turrets were never allowed to go out to range 3, that alone would probably be enough.

43 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A ship does not have to be nerfed because it is good.

Miranda has clear counters that generally win, and she has no completely broken build like eg Nym, Torpscouts, Dengaroo, ... all had

So even if she‘s dominating in few months then that‘s not necessarily bad or a reason to nerf her.

It is if she has a clear NPE-build though

I’m not sure this is how FFG looks at it though, because if they did, you’d think Kylo crew would have been dealt with immediately. That is about as NPE as you can get in a lot of match ups.

Also, TLT + regen + possible slam endgame to run time isn’t the most pleasant experience either...

27 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I’m not sure this is how FFG looks at it though, because if they did, you’d think Kylo crew would have been dealt with immediately. That is about as NPE as you can get in a lot of match ups.

I didn‘t mean to say that FFG looks at is this way. But I definitely do. I have no problem joining the choir asking for a nerf, but the reflexive „nerf because I always lose against it“ is imo very bad for the game.

29 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Also, TLT + regen + possible slam endgame to run time isn’t the most pleasant experience either...

Sure, but that problem has a solution besides not playing the game, so it should not be cause for a nerf

16 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

Also, people have been asking for TLT / Miranda nerfs long before the Reign of the Toiletseats, aka Wave 8-11.

And I still don’t see why. I do find it funny that it’s mostly the Imperial and Scum players complaining about the TLT. Rebel players have to play against them too. And yes there are a lot of rebel lists without TLT. I rarely play them.

20 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

They are overcosted, have low PS (7 tops), a crappy dial, no regen, no repositioning, no crew, no turret.

A base Punisher requires a lot of points sunk into it in order to compare to Miranda - whereas she just has to take a turret, Sabine + bomblet and as a bonus, she can take some ordnance on top of that.

I am also tired of the claim that Palp was a crutch, he wasn't, he was THE ONLY VIABLE option at the time (and boy I hated flying with Palp Shuttles even if it was the only way to win). As he is now, he is not bad, a few points overcosted, but the two crew cost is steep and highly restrictive - which is why he is rare.

Here is a brain tickler:

Imperial ships pay premium for green dice, in a game where green dice have been marginalized due to red-dice "creep", turrets, and auto-damage weapons.

Look at the ships that are, and have been doing well, see many green dice do you? ^^

PS. Scum ships can also cloak. Just saying.

Well I guess the grass is always greener.

If you look at the Rebel ship breakdown going from the number of 3 defence dice ships to 0 defence dice ships, you’ll see a trend. 3,6,8,1 The majority of Rebel ships (8) have 1 defence die.

Now look at Imperials. 6/10,6/2,3/2,1 (the number after the slash is assuming Lightweight Frame is used making the ship 1 die higher). 10 Imperial ships can have 3 defence dice. Yep green dice are not as reliable as red dice, but keep in mind Rebel players have to play Rebel players too and oddly enough they don’t do as well against Imperial as other Rebels. So maybe green dice aren’t as good as I think, but they defiantly not as bad as you think.

Also it’s important to mention that most Imperial ships not only have 3 defence dice, but they can also take the evade action. Yes I know statistically having a focus is said to be better, but only when you have those two extra dice. Evade tokens just stops an extra point of damage... oh wait that’s right for when you have attacks doing more than three damage. A Rebel player doesn’t even have the option, or rather they have one option, take the damage. Consider now all that auto-damage, return attacks, dice changing and how that affects Rebels.

So you’ll have to excuse me for not seeing why TLT needs to be nerfed. It’s a good tool that allows less maneuverable ships to actually get some damage in. Its also by no means guaranteed damage, since most times you can only modify one of the two attacks. The TLT only does a maximum of 2 damage per round and I haven’t even mentioned autothrusters yet.

Now as far as ships that are doing well, you mean like the defenders? Oh no wait, that has 3 dice. Then you probably meant the Protectorate Starship? Oh no wait, that’s right it has 3 dice too. If you were trying to talk about 2 dice ships doing well, they should. They should be the balance between tankish 1 die ships and fast and fragile 3 dice ships. Also any data from the last year or so is polluted by JumpMasters, either by the fact that they were over used or by the fact that everyone had to come up with lists that could combat them. JumpMasters were so truly broken from price to health to which pilots got ept to what was on their upgrade bar. It is also worth mentioning that arc dodging aces didn’t go away because of TLTs they went away because of bombs and JumpMasters. Which shows how misplaced your criticism may be.

Oh and just for completeness, here are the Scum numbers. 4,7,4,0

8 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

oddly enough they don’t do as well against Imperial as other Rebels.

Support this with evidence please.

11 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Sounds like Ion Turret would be the only good other option given how blah Synced, Blaster and Dorsal allegedly are.

The only reason that Synced is considered blah is because TLT exists. There is little reason to bring it when TLT is immensely better. I've put it on the table enough to say that its a good turret, just outclassed by TLT so much there's little reason to not upgrade to TLT instead. I currently run ICT's today with my TIE Aggressors. One of the reasons I didn't have Nym problems pre-FAQ.

If TLT was gone, ICT and Synced would see more play. ABT gets play in certain builds already. Probably Dorsal a little bit, eh.

Blaster will always be used only as a bookmark until they errata it.

Honestly, we don't need TLT anymore there are plenty of other tools to deal with Fat turret builds.

If TLT was gone we'd see some ABT and nothing else. ICT was obsolete by the time the Falcon was released (because turrets don't care much about ion movements and dictate a minimum of 2 ion weapons per list which gets way too expensive) and only saw play on the Stresshog, and only because it was the only turret with enough range that worked through stress.

Sure that doesn't mean that TLT isn't too strong, it certainly is (if not by as much as most people think), but it isn't the reason for the lack of variety in the turret slot. Even Synced Turret just isn't worth it.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

Well I guess the grass is always greener.

I like* how flippantly you dismissed the huge difference between SLAM+Crew+Turret vs Boost+Systems+Missile. One is so massively better that it might be enough to explain why one ship dominates and the other sees no play

*I don‘t like it. You picked one easy point to answer and just brushed this one away.

5 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

If TLT was gone we'd see some ABT and nothing else. ICT was obsolete by the time the Falcon was released (because turrets don't care much about ion movements and dictate a minimum of 2 ion weapons per list which gets way too expensive) and only saw play on the Stresshog, and only because it was the only turret with enough range that worked through stress.

Sure that doesn't mean that TLT isn't too strong, it certainly is (if not by as much as most people think), but it isn't the reason for the lack of variety in the turret slot. Even Synced Turret just isn't worth it.

ICT figuratively (for action bombs) and sometimes literally (for on-reveal bombs) shuts down heavy bombers like Nym and Miranda. If they get within range to bomb you, they get ionized, then they get burned down. 1 Forward + 1 SLAM doesn't go far. Neither does a 1 Forward followed by a BR/Boost.