I wish Phoenix had seeker of void. ?

Just now, franzvong said:

The poll in the Scorpion discord was overwhelmingly im favour of seeker of void.

That's cool. I've never even heard of a Scorpion Discord though. I am more concerned with my paying customers.

Massing at Twilight, while not being an auto-include, gives some additional sense to the SoV role for Scorpion. The sky is not falling on Kyuden Bayushi, yet...

54 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

I haven't seen even one other Scorpion player that is happy with the choice.

They are upset, mainly, because they feel like their clan was sabotaged, but also because a lot of people feel that Seeker of the Void just doesn't work all that well with current Scorpion decks.

Are you only talking about local players? Because if not I can tell you right now I'm not only in favour of Seeker of Void, I'm the one who suggested it to Mark, so that's two Scorpion right there. Plus a large portion of the Scorpion attending Worlds.

And it not only works well with current Scorpion decks, it fits perfectly into the Scorpion Defensive Dishonour deck that Mark piloted to finish Top of Clan and make the choice of Role going forward. So you can tell your local players they have little to worry about.

18 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

That's cool. I've never even heard of a Scorpion Discord though. I am more concerned with my paying customers.

While it's admirable that you care for your customer base, you also have to realize that they aren't a representative sample of Scorpion players. While it's easy to resort to anecdotal evidence for whether something is liked/disliked, it isn't nearly enough to truly base large scale opinions on how a singular group of people feels about something. And when using that as part of an argument about that groups opinions, it comes off poorly and ill informed.

Your customer base may not like this, but they don't speak for everyone. It's important that you cater to their needs, but you must also realize their opinions and needs are not necessarily representative of the whole.

30 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

While it's admirable that you care for your customer base, you also have to realize that they aren't a representative sample of Scorpion players. While it's easy to resort to anecdotal evidence for whether something is liked/disliked, it isn't nearly enough to truly base large scale opinions on how a singular group of people feels about something. And when using that as part of an argument about that groups opinions, it comes off poorly and ill informed.

Your customer base may not like this, but they don't speak for everyone. It's important that you cater to their needs, but you must also realize their opinions and needs are not necessarily representative of the whole.

I do, but other players need to realize the same thing. Scorpion Discord does not represent the entire clan.

Very, very few of our players are returning from the old game. Almost none of them started with a clan loyalty. With word going around (true or not) that the clan was purposely sabotaged and gimped, it is making people rethink their choice of Scorpion for the year ahead. It doesn't matter whether we agree with it or not, it's happening.

This is the whole reason we brought up not using this rule locally to begin with.

10 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

I do, but other players need to realize the same thing. Scorpion Discord does not represent the entire clan.

You do not come off as you do realize that, and I never claimed the Scorpion Discord represents the clan either. (I was also careful in using Representative sample, but that's that) I can appreciate your attempt to stand by your position, but it is perhaps best to just put this down right now, while tempers are still flared and wounds are fresh.

11 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

Very, very few of our players are returning from the old game. Almost none of them started with a clan loyalty. With word going around (true or not) that the clan was purposely sabotaged and gimped, it is making people rethink their choice of Scorpion for the year ahead. It doesn't matter whether we agree with it or not, it's happening.

I'm not sure how best to respond to this, truthfully. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't happening. It's more disagreeing on HOW much it's happening. obviously by your anecdotal evidence, it's happening ALOT, but to others they do not see it happening much, if at all. Again this is why we come back to how anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence, but bad data. None of these things are true representations of the player base, and we should stop treating them as such.

Clan loyalty is still a thing to some players but the LCG models makes it easier for people to own everything and make multiple out of clan decks. Our local ccg unicorn player has different decks in the lcg so nobody gets bored when we grind out countless matches on game night and so that as a group we can test out possible opponents and get familiar with other clan styles.

With that said to a degree it makes 'jumping ship' easier, newer players also may not really adhere to old values of clan loyalty. They might really like a clan... but they may also want to treat it as other card games and 'play whats good'. You also have to take into account that some players still don't have their 'original clan' yet but still want to play.

When it comes to forums it really is an echo chamber of who is the loudest. Is it the same people posting about the same topic perpetuating their ideals? Or is it multiple new people with the same complaint?

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

You do not come off as you do realize that, and I never claimed the Scorpion Discord represents the clan either. (I was also careful in using Representative sample, but that's that) I can appreciate your attempt to stand by your position, but it is perhaps best to just put this down right now, while tempers are still flared and wounds are fresh.

I'm not sure how best to respond to this, truthfully. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't happening. It's more disagreeing on HOW much it's happening. obviously by your anecdotal evidence, it's happening ALOT, but to others they do not see it happening much, if at all. Again this is why we come back to how anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence, but bad data. None of these things are true representations of the player base, and we should stop treating them as such.

My temper isn't flared at all, I am simply stating facts. I never claimed my player base was representative of anything other than itself.

Except the part where you stated 'I don't know a single Scorpion player that was happy with the decision' without the qualifier 'among the customers of my store', dude.

Also, the 'word going around (true or not)' comment rankles. I can outright tell you it's not true. I'd suggest that's worth sharing with your local players, if it's a genuine concern over what happened. I'd also point out that if it had happened (as in, if Brad had finished higher than me and made the pick), he would have been doing so out of a desire to make the game more enjoyable for others. Folks can argue about the validity of his conclusion, but it was absolutely a noble and unselfish act, and personally, as someone who has worked in games stores and built local communities for the games I love, I'd choose to focus on that in an effort to help my local scene grow.

1 minute ago, Hinomura said:

Except the part where you stated 'I don't know a single Scorpion player that was happy with the decision' without the qualifier 'among the customers of my store', dude.

But I wasn't just talking about my store in that statement. I literally do not know a single other Scorpion player that likes this choice. I hadn't even seen anyone defend it until I came to this forum. Just a fact.

11 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

Also, the 'word going around (true or not)' comment rankles. I can outright tell you it's not true. I'd suggest that's worth sharing with your local players, if it's a genuine concern over what happened. I'd also point out that if it had happened (as in, if Brad had finished higher than me and made the pick), he would have been doing so out of a desire to make the game more enjoyable for others. Folks can argue about the validity of his conclusion, but it was absolutely a noble and unselfish act, and personally, as someone who has worked in games stores and built local communities for the games I love, I'd choose to focus on that in an effort to help my local scene grow.

My gamers are all about the "hot meta". They are the ones hearing this stuff and bringing it to the store. I'm not going to just tell them it's not true when I don't know whether it is or not. Like I said, I read the justification behind the choice, and I'm still on the fence. I'm not going to be bullied into agreeing with it, or believing it for that matter. I'll be play testing today and giving my opinions afterwards.

Your attitude of "Well that's not what IM hearing or seeing, so it must not be true" just reeks of condescendation. Just because it's not going on in this tiny forum, or in some Discord chat does not mean it's not happening. I don't just go onto forums and have lengthy discussions about made up things for the fun of it.

I'm literally the person who made the decision, man.

1 minute ago, Hinomura said:

I'm literally the person who made the decision, man.

I read it. What is your point?

7 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

But I wasn't just talking about my store in that statement. I literally do not know a single other Scorpion player that likes this choice. I hadn't even seen anyone defend it until I came to this forum. Just a fact.

I'd be careful throwing around "facts" like that.

It's just as easy for someone to randomly post

"I don't know a single person who has told me that SolidusPrime doesn't kick puppies"

While factually accurate it has a certain implication to it.

3 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

I read it. What is your point?

That the person is telling you the justification of the choice, not second hand, but the actual player is telling you what happened. If you're going to decide it isn't the truth, then you're calling them a liar. And if you are, just come out and say it. stop dancing around it.

And if you aren't calling him a liar, then tell your players the truth, instead of letting a bad situation boil over.

[To be clear, this was before the two posts above appeared :P]

That I'm aware of why I made that decision? Are you implying that I'm not being honest about that? Or that Brad was lying to me when he explained his motivation?

Man, think what you like. I've been patient and polite with a whole lot of people who are largely either clueless, willfully ignorant, or just flat out dumb. Time to step away, I reckon.

Just now, Ishi Tonu said:

I'd be careful throwing around "facts" like that.

It's just as easy for someone to randomly post

"I don't know a single person who has told me that SolidusPrime doesn't kick puppies"

While factually accurate it has a certain implication to it.

I feel like you guys are arguing just to argue at this point.

Does anyone really hear that statement and literally think that I know everyone that plays this game, and they are all telling me they hate the decision? No, it literally means that "I don't know anyone that likes this choice". I guess I will edit those statements in the future to let you guys know how many people I know so that there is no confusion.

4 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

That I'm aware of why I made that decision? Are you implying that I'm not being honest about that? Or that Brad was lying to me when he explained his motivation?

Man, think what you like. I've been patient and polite with a whole lot of people who are largely either clueless, willfully ignorant, or just flat out dumb. Time to step away, I reckon.

I'm implying that I don't necessarily believe that that was your motivation, or his, yes.

Neither of you are anything but names on a forum to me, and people do way shadier things in these games all the time. The name calling isn't really necessary just because I might not believe you or disagree with you. Grow up.

Just now, SolidusPrime said:

I feel like you guys are arguing just to argue at this point.

Does anyone really hear that statement and literally think that I know everyone that plays this game, and they are all telling me they hate the decision? No, it literally means that "I don't know anyone that likes this choice". I guess I will edit those statements in the future to let you guys know how many people I know so that there is no confusion.

I hate to tell you, but no one reads literally. human beings do not just compute language in a literal sense, we read into things, see hidden meanings and interpret words by the way they are said, just as much as what they are said.

But onto that, since you've decided anyone who is defending this decision believes that no one is walking way, perhaps you should take the step back now, calm down, and re-read what's being said, by yourself and others. You can say people are walking away, or dropping scorpion, or pissed off. NO ONE has said there aren't players who are doing any of these things. So either you're making a strawman against an argument that isn't going on, or you're trying to say it's worse than some people are saying, which none of us have any evidence for how bad it is.

Interesting that there has been no denial of kicking puppies..............what does this mean?

Gosh I wonder if I'll even believe the person if they deny it now. I mean I don't know them personally, it's just a name on a forum after all.

4 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

I hate to tell you, but no one reads literally. human beings do not just compute language in a literal sense, we read into things, see hidden meanings and interpret words by the way they are said, just as much as what they are said.

But onto that, since you've decided anyone who is defending this decision believes that no one is walking way, perhaps you should take the step back now, calm down, and re-read what's being said, by yourself and others. You can say people are walking away, or dropping scorpion, or pissed off. NO ONE has said there aren't players who are doing any of these things. So either you're making a strawman against an argument that isn't going on, or you're trying to say it's worse than some people are saying, which none of us have any evidence for how bad it is.

Then why was there even a need to bring it up? Like I said, arguing just to argue. If you need to step away, have at it. Also, I kick puppies.

I'll be getting back on topic now, rather than addressing the personal attacks against me by people that feel slighted for some reason.

I feel like I wrote here ages ago that the Scorpions/our next role would be Seeker of Void, and Seeker of Air was chosen just to shore up Seeker of Void as the real choice. Like Mark said, this decision was made ages ago and is a great one. Pilgrimage and Shamful is too stronk, way more so game on game than a single piece of Dishonor tech would be, as much as I would have loved to play with it. Also, people arent valuing Seeker Initiate.

This is a great choice.

But frankly, as long as these fair weather Scorps arent quitting the game outright, which is silly, then a part of me is quite happy that my clan is now less popular. Makes me feel like less of a bandwagon hopper myself =]

Also, what was all this talk about secondary clan roles?

I love how if you don't like this keeper/seeker rule the only options you have are : A. Quit. B. Start a fringe community that does its own thing. C. Spend thousands of dollars to get to a card tournament next year and hope you're good enough to bless an entire player base with your genius.

This rule is silly and unnecessary.