On 11/5/2017 at 11:52 AM, Devik said:

And, yeah. I don't understand either why the Keeper of Void wasn't chosen. Not only because of Isawa Atsuko/Elemental Fury for defense, there's also Isawa Kaede coming up, so you could put Initiates into play from any conflict won by him while attacking, no matter the element.

This was another point I made in another post and to the Phoenix rep's, but they couldn't be persuaded. I like Phoenix, I have a lot of fun with them, but they aren't my main faction so -shrug-. I just know that triggering Keeper of Void and Keeper Initiates off any incoming Void attack, Elemental Fury, Kuroi Mori, and using Atsuko on Defense (also getting a fate) or any outgoing Void attack using Atsuko, or ANY attack with Isawa Kaede is EXTREMELY strong.

Huge opportunity lost there until next year. That being said I do know the Phoenix guys, all great guys, I just would have went another way.

1 minute ago, Etaywah said:

This was another point I made in another post and to the Phoenix rep's, but they couldn't be persuaded. I like Phoenix, I have a lot of fun with them, but they aren't my main faction so -shrug-. I just know that triggering Keeper of Void and Keeper Initiates off any incoming Void attack, Elemental Fury, Kuroi Mori, and using Atsuko on Defense (also getting a fate) or any outgoing Void attack using Atsuko, or ANY attack with Isawa Kaede is EXTREMELY strong.

Huge opportunity lost there until next year.

Phoenix wanted to run a water province that actually had a good action, plus Keeper Initiate, while free, doesn't help when Phoenix wants to be as keyword homogeneous as possible. Plus they swing for water just as much as void usually, because straightening honored Shugenja can basically win games right there.

24 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Phoenix wanted to run a water province that actually had a good action, plus Keeper Initiate, while free, doesn't help when Phoenix wants to be as keyword homogeneous as possible. Plus they swing for water just as much as void usually, because straightening honored Shugenja can basically win games right there.

I can see that, but picking a keeper is equally about what you expect to defend from as what you would like to swing as in order to trigger keepers. Especially since they can change their rings and also prevent certain rings thus whittling down the choices, they are uniquely suited to get an advantage from incoming attacks, even more-so because they are a defensive faction. If you have fate on your characters and you are second player, they will not choose water unless they need the fate. The strongest choices against a Phoenix first attack is Fire and Void.

Fire to dishonor their high-glory characters, and Void because they are a ramp-up faction that builds to a strong board presence with honored, high-glory characters. Also, Void is often chosen as a first-attack to prevent the ring from being used against the attacker in a counter-attack. Taking advantage of an incoming attack to trigger keepers gives you more options for longer, so you want to pick one that will be most commonly used against you early.

From the Phoenix facebook group, posting here so that it won't vanish into Zuckerberg's algorithmic nightmare, courtesy of Travis McDaniel:

Quote

The official "Why Keeper of Water?" Response:

**Why a Keeper role and not seeker?**
-Harmonize is flexible defensive trick that allows us to defuse conflicts entirely and then place the ring back for us to use ourselves in addition to not losing the conflict
-Both Guard Duty and Talisman of the Sun are fantastic keeper splash choices and extra influence will make any splash better overall.
-For now, Keeper Initiate gives us extra bodies on board which can help us be more aggressive with province attacks. The Imperial Favor also looks to be increasing in value this cycle so they help immensely with favor control.
- Why not Seeker? We cannot take Seeker of Void again, as much as we would like to, and Seeker of Air was under consideration. It being taken early and the lack of the strong Keeper card options ultimately made seeker a no-go.

**Why Water?**
-I think it's easier to explain why I didn't take the other options over Water specifically first:
- Why not Fire? Simply put, Fire was hotly contested and only winning would have secured it, which sadly did not happen.
- Why not Void? Void is a fantastic pick on the surface but my reasons against it are two fold. First, I expect Kaede to be a major player for us and her ability does not trigger Keeper Initiate with the current rulings. Second, the void province is good but won't replace Shameful Display or Kuroi Mori so the option is moot compared to other element role specific provinces.
- Why not Air? Air as a ring is probably the least picked overall and it does little to control the characters on board, which is what we love to do. Additionally, I have doubt about running the air role province over Manicured Garden. Fate is more important for us than any other, and being Keepers now means we lose the free income from Seeker.
- Why not Earth? Earth is sort of an always decent but usually not the best ring choice generally. The earth role province is cool; but I think Public Forum and the core two are more useful.
-Alright, but why Water then? Unlike the other role provinces, the water can easily replace either of the core two. Being a repeatable action versus one-time is fantastic for more defensive playstyles while leaving the others as viable alternatives for different styles of play. Additionally, Water is one of the best rings with Kaede and Adept of the Waves or when going second after defending to ready a character that you defended with.
-One final point: The element for keeper matters less when considering fate gain for winning on defense as it so rarely triggers. I picked water because it is a potent ring for keeper initiate that also gives the best options for provinces.

**TL;DR**
I did not make this decision lightly or alone. I spent many weeks contemplating the next best role after Seeker of Void and discussed extensively with the other Phoenix Hatamotos Nick Soto and Matthew Beck, who also agreed with Keeper of Water.

Hopefully, this post helps alleviate some concerns for those of you scratching your heads. I read every bit of your feedback and definitely chose what I felt was best for us as a whole.

3 hours ago, Etaywah said:

This was another point I made in another post and to the Phoenix rep's, but they couldn't be persuaded. I like Phoenix, I have a lot of fun with them, but they aren't my main faction so -shrug-. I just know that triggering Keeper of Void and Keeper Initiates off any incoming Void attack, Elemental Fury, Kuroi Mori, and using Atsuko on Defense (also getting a fate) or any outgoing Void attack using Atsuko, or ANY attack with Isawa Kaede is EXTREMELY strong.

Huge opportunity lost there until next year. That being said I do know the Phoenix guys, all great guys, I just would have went another way.

So... turns out pretty much my entire previous post is wrong. Not only Initiates don't trigger with Isawa Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge, Your point about Keeper of Fire is also wrong - Initiates come into play after ring effect resolves so one couldn't honor them with Fire.

After all, I find the above explanation for the choice compelling.

2 hours ago, Devik said:

So... turns out pretty much my entire previous post is wrong. Not only Initiates don't trigger with Isawa Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge, Your point about Keeper of Fire is also wrong - Initiates come into play after ring effect resolves so one couldn't honor them with Fire.

After all, I find the above explanation for the choice compelling.

Oh wow, yes you're right. I thought it was claim then resolve, it's the other way around.

I'm assuming that with the current rules, after you resolve the ring effects that Isawa Kaede loses her ability once the "Claim Ring" step takes place. Since it's not actually a void ring, it does not follow the rules for the Keeper Initiates and that's why it does not trigger.

4 hours ago, Devik said:

So... turns out pretty much my entire previous post is wrong. Not only Initiates don't trigger with Isawa Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge, Your point about Keeper of Fire is also wrong - Initiates come into play after ring effect resolves so one couldn't honor them with Fire.

After all, I find the above explanation for the choice compelling.

2 hours ago, Etaywah said:

Oh wow, yes you're right. I thought it was claim then resolve, it's the other way around.

Gotta give you guys props for admitting you're wrong and amending your position, per logic. Why does that seem like such a rarity these days?

Does anyone know the story behind the crane clan pick? Just wondering. Was expecting a keeper role due to higher influence, better cards imho, etc.

Now that it's seeker I'm looking forward to trying out cautious scouts with the unicorn event.

25 minutes ago, Mig el Pig said:

Does anyone know the story behind the crane clan pick? Just wondering. Was expecting a keeper role due to higher influence, better cards imho, etc.

Now that it's seeker I'm looking forward to trying out cautious scouts with the unicorn event.

We wanted Keeper of fire, but that was chosen, second was Seeker of Air because it unlocked Pathfinder Blade, and Test of Skill. A lot of crane run card control, so disdainful remark was popular but really swingy. Test of Skill gives us great card draw in combination with Kakita Yoshi, Dodji Challenger, and Kakita Kaezin. It also gave us double resource provinces (Fertile fields, and Manicured Gardens).

Thnx

Hi all,

I'd like to request a bulletpoint list as to why Samuel Benies chose Keeper of Fire over Seeker. I'm not very well versed in the intricacies of the game and have only really focused on playing Lion and learning the mechanics of the game until now. So far, all I can think of is:

* +3 deckbuilding influence

* Ability to play Keeper cards, the only one I know of is Keeper Initiate, I would appreciate a more comprehensive list.

Was there an element of not wanting another clan to have that role? What spurred my inquiry was noticing that I am currently unable to play 'Time for War' from ToA as it is a seeker only card. Any and all input will be appreciated as it will give me a better insight into the game as a whole.

Sincerely,

Tetsuo