Dear FFG Organized Play,

Your decision to hold Regional events on November 25^th, 2017 on Thanksgiving weekend is a tremendously poor idea and inconsistent with your scheduling sensitivity around other highly revered American holidays that are known primarily for family travel.

Your nearest scheduled event to Christmas will be December 16^th, 2017 where two events (for Armada and X-Wing, respectively) are scheduled over a week before the holiday. The first events in 2018 will be a week after New Year’s Eve on the next Sunday. Much like Thanksgiving, these days are also traditionally held as celebrations to be enjoyed with family and friends. Most of your own employees probably have plans to enjoy these days, and Thanksgiving weekend, in close contact with family and will find that stepping away from that to spend the entire day gaming with strangers at a remote location to be difficult at best, or unacceptable at worst.

It may not be possible now to reschedule the five regional events that have been placed on November 25^th, 2017 even though many players, myself included, would rather you do so. But at least I ask on behalf of many Americans that you work to better separate future events from major travel holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year’s Day. It is frustrating to have to choose between going to a local event and missing valuable time with visiting family and traveling to a distant location at significant expense.

Sincerely,

thecactusman17

Two years ago the PA regional was hosted on Mother's Day... the turn out was so low they've lost their regional. And that's on FFG for scheduling it that weekend.

3 hours ago, Khyros said:

Two years ago the PA regional was hosted on Mother's Day... the turn out was so low they've lost their regional. And that's on FFG for scheduling it that weekend.

This year, as last year, as part of the process, Stores were tasked with providing 3 Preferred Dates as to when they wish to hold their Regional. The only restriction was within a time-frame, (November-March) and it had to be a Saturday.

To my knowledge - I don't know of a store that has not been given one of those 3 dates.

So if there's a regional on Thanksgiving, to my knowledge, the store must have listed it as a preferred date.

Those dates did not have to be sequential (thus, accidentally capturing a public holiday).

Again, to my knowledge, if a store has an event on a Public Holiday, that store included that date on their bid.......

If that is the case... Then FFG cannot shoulder the only blame for that.

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

So if there's a regional on Thanksgiving, to my knowledge, the store must have listed it as a preferred date.

Indeed, and within the X-Wing community one working theory is that some players convinced their store to run events on the Thanksgiving weekend. This basically limits the event to only locals, thus serving as a way for a local community to protect "their" regional event from the try-hards that would usually travel 2-8 hours for the event.

Do open letters ever actually get sent to the intended recipient?

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Do open letters ever actually get sent to the intended recipient?

No, that is entirely the point of it being open. The assumtion is the intended reads them, but in a public forum filled with shame and contempt.

5 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

No, that is entirely the point of it being open. The assumtion is the intended reads them, but in a public forum filled with shame and contempt.

I've sent an email to FFG before and never heard back. It was even professionally sounding too.

This is probably just as effective.

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Do open letters ever actually get sent to the intended recipient?

This one did.

Seems like you’re blaming the wrong people. I’d be upset with the place that scheduled the event, not FFG. You’re barking up the wrong cactus, buddy.

1 hour ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Seems like you’re blaming the wrong people. I’d be upset with the place that scheduled the event, not FFG. You’re barking up the wrong cactus, buddy.

I think the idea he is suggesting is that FFG/Asmodee black out holiday weekends completely from their OP schedule oit of respect to their players.

Are we assuming that Armada players are family focused people? It seems true from what I have experienced, yet it you looked at tabletop gamers on the whole is it still so?

If there is low turnout the they should learn from the experience. However, if there is not then you must admit that one person cannot speak for a community.

22 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Are we assuming that Armada players are family focused people? It seems true from what I have experienced, yet it you looked at tabletop gamers on the whole is it still so?

I think we're assuming that some family-focused people are Armada players, which is definitely true. I know I couldn't have gone to Regionals if it had been on Thanksgiving weekend.

23 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

If there is low turnout the they should learn from the experience.

I agree. With such a small sample size it would be pretty difficult to get useful data though.

15 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Indeed, and within the X-Wing community one working theory is that some players convinced their store to run events on the Thanksgiving weekend. This basically limits the event to only locals, thus serving as a way for a local community to protect "their" regional event from the try-hards that would usually travel 2-8 hours for the event.

This is such a **** attitude, I don't even know where to start. Even worse if the store and FFG support it. "Too bad your city didn't get a Regionals Locals this year, **** you I got mine."

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I think we're assuming that some family-focused people are Armada players, which is definitely true. I know I couldn't have gone to Regionals if it had been on Thanksgiving weekend.

Now I am not saying that I think the day after Thanksgiving is a good idea, but as it is one of the biggest shopping days of the year, and generally more women like to go shopping, I can see a store thinking that maybe this is a way to draw more of the men in. Will it work I do not know but can see at least one reason for it.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I agree. With such a small sample size it would be pretty difficult to get useful data though.

I have never gone to regionals as they have never been close enough on days that I could go, so what is the normal turn out? Or maybe ask what would be a low enough turn out to be shocking?

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is such a **** attitude, I don't even know where to start. Even worse if the store and FFG support it. "Too bad your city didn't get a Regionals Locals this year, **** you I got mine."

I am not saying that I agree with this, especially for regionals, but I can kind of see why some would try and do it. This years our local store champion was from six hours away, the date was set and then someone (I do not know who, but guess the out of townees) asked if it could be moved from the Saturday to the Sunday of the same weekend, so the store did so. Our store championship game was just the two out of town players as none of the eight regular players could show up that day either had to work or already had other commitments. Now I know that the store champion rules do not say anything about it is supposed to be a local player or anything remotely like that, but I would guess if you polled that is what most players would like to see, having the out of town "ringers" go from store to store and take all the championships (I am willing to bet this does not really happen, but some times it does seam that way) and they at least in my experience do not spend any money in the local stores. So I guess what I am saying is I can understand why local players would want to do something like this, for the store championship I think it would be fine as at least by name it implies it is a local event. However for regionals that does feel a bit underhanded if that is what they are trying to do, on the other hand I can see at least one reason that they might hold it that day (comment number one above).

6 minutes ago, CDAT said:

what is the normal turn out? Or maybe ask what would be a low enough turn out to be shocking?

They varied very widely, but the first year was an average of 18, second was an average of 28 and ranged from 9-32 (all based only on which regionals reported their data, of course).

Which is why I say it would be difficult to get useful data with such a low sample size. With such large variance from one event's attendance to the next, so few events across the same date, and so few different dates to compare across, it would be virtually impossible to attribute attendance levels to the date selected. I'm sure @Baltanok could explain it better (it's been kind of a long time since I took Statistics & Probability, I've lost most of the language of it).

58 minutes ago, CDAT said:

Now I know that the store champion rules do not say anything about it is supposed to be a local player or anything remotely like that, but I would guess if you polled that is what most players would like to see, having the out of town "ringers" go from store to store and take all the championships (I am willing to bet this does not really happen, but some times it does seam that way) and they at least in my experience do not spend any money in the local stores.

Not the last time such a poll was done here, at least. Regardless, Store Championships and Regionals are pretty different things. The point of Regionals is to bring together players from the region. It's not FFG cherry-picking a local community that's eligible to win a Regionals. This whole scenario would be like somebody from Indianapolis tried manipulating the GenCon organizers to reschedule the con to a holiday weekend so fewer people could come and they'd have a better shot at winning Nationals. I feel like most of us can agree that that would be pretty ****.

(I know you're just playing Devil's Advocate. Just responding to the hypothetical, here.)

Just wanted to voice my support of this open letter.

The store owners applying for regional events may not have been aware that the 25th was the weekend of Thanksgiving. Mistakes may have been made, but if we trace the fault back to it's origin, it starts with FFG. Frankly, FFG should hold the responsibility to not allow events to be hosted that close to holidays. Period. Could we spread the blame around, sure, but ultimately it should be up to the company in charge to make sure their events are scheduled well.

My store is one of the ones running an event on the 25th. I admin a group for armada in ohio and members from Columbus, Cleveland, PA, and a couple locals have made it known that they'd likely be unable to go because of the date. That's pretty ******' **** in my opinion. You'd think FFG, a money seeking entity, would make sure that mistakes like this weren't possible.

Eitherway, we're stuck with the date now, but I'll lose my god **** mind if we lose our regional approval because FFG offered a date within 5 days of a major national holiday and we didn't have enough people.

12 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Eitherway, we're stuck with the date now, but I'll lose my god **** mind if we lose our regional approval because FFG offered a date within 5 days of a major national holiday and we didn't have enough people.

You have it, you won't lose it.

I don't see why ultimately, FFG is to blame for approving... The onus is on the store to know their clientele and who would be likely to be attending... They would at least have a better chance of knowing whether a Holiday date would backfire or help, in comparison to FFG...

AS a store Organiser. I firmly believe that, if the blame is to lie somewhere with this, it would be with the store. Potentially, the only time I see it being FFG's problem is if two stores in the area are directly competing for the Regional, and it was awarded on the premise of being held on that date.

In that case, well, maybe there's a point to be made... But as it is, what formulae FFG applies is unknown to the public... (I still don't understand my personal situation up here in Calgary, but there's nothing to do about it here, because as disappointing as I personally feel it is, its fairl and legal.)

If a Store nominated for that Date in the first place... Find out Why. People are assuming it is a mistake, but if a Store says "We traditionally have more income and traffic on the weekend, then... It was in their best interest for that date.

FFG, as said, is a moneymaking Entity... FFG makes very little direct income from Organised Play, and often runs it at a loss. Wether 2 people or 30 people turn up for a Regional, FFG makes their Kit price of $90 or so... Its the store bottom line that is effected.

I must say as personal preference. I would much rather an event I have to travel for to be on a long weekend holiday or not. I don't get alot of time off and long weekends are perfect for me not that I'm going to this event in particular. But given enough notice I would be pleased as punch to see those dates.

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I don't see why ultimately, FFG is to blame for approving... The onus is on the store to know their clientele and who would be likely to be attending... They would at least have a better chance of knowing whether a Holiday date would backfire or help, in comparison to FFG...

see

3 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Mistakes may have been made, but if we trace the fault back to it's origin, it starts with FFG. Frankly, FFG should hold the responsibility to not allow events to be hosted that close to holidays. Period. Could we spread the blame around, sure, but ultimately it should be up to the company in charge to make sure their events are scheduled well.

They shouldn't be allowed to do it, period. Specifically because of instances like this. For the vast majority, a holiday date is going to prevent players from entering, especially when it's one of the major national holidays that people travel for. Especially in cases like this where the holiday isn't actually on the weekend itself and a mistake could be made. It's a regional event, a FORMAL FFG event, scheduling shouldn't be left entirely to the stores.

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

FFG, as said, is a moneymaking Entity... FFG makes very little direct income from Organised Play, and often runs it at a loss. Wether 2 people or 30 people turn up for a Regional, FFG makes their Kit price of $90 or so... Its the store bottom line that is effected.

The key word in this is "directly".

Yeah, the kit isn't lining the pockets of people at FFG, but the indirect result of having an organized play system cannot even be argued, as it attributes to the survival of these types of games entirely. Tournaments move product. Period. Just last weekend one of the participants who had been borrowing and proxying in ships for casual games bought 3 sets to complete his fleet for the tournament. Two other players went in on mats for the same reason. That's the WHOLE point of having and organized play system. It generates a need for players to buy more.


So when you allow a store to make poor choices for formal events, and players who would normally be buying a little extra to prepare realize it conflicts with family affairs, yeah, it hurts their bottom line. Maybe not a lot, maybe not even significantly enough for them to care, but it happens.

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

see

They shouldn't be allowed to do it, period. Specifically because of instances like this. For the vast majority, a holiday date is going to prevent players from entering, especially when it's one of the major national holidays that people travel for. Especially in cases like this where the holiday isn't actually on the weekend itself and a mistake could be made. It's a regional event, a FORMAL FFG event, scheduling shouldn't be left entirely to the stores.

The key word in this is "directly".

Yeah, the kit isn't lining the pockets of people at FFG, but the indirect result of having an organized play system cannot even be argued, as it attributes to the survival of these types of games entirely. Tournaments move product. Period. Just last weekend one of the participants who had been borrowing and proxying in ships for casual games bought 3 sets to complete his fleet for the tournament. Two other players went in on mats for the same reason. That's the WHOLE point of having and organized play system. It generates a need for players to buy more.


So when you allow a store to make poor choices for formal events, and players who would normally be buying a little extra to prepare realize it conflicts with family affairs, yeah, it hurts their bottom line. Maybe not a lot, maybe not even significantly enough for them to care, but it happens.

I still think you're overblowing where the blame is to be laid, though, in my personal opinion.

I mean...

Why is it up to FFG to determine what is best for the store in question?

Do they have that right? Especially when the store itself has to pay for the "privilege" in the end?

If a store genuinely does their best business and has the most interest in it, why should FFG have a say otherwise?

I mean, that's something that really bugged me about the Sentry Box bid... FFG flat out stated that they had to be run on Saturdays...

Not Sundays, for example, which is the best time for the events for the Largest General Gaming Store in North America... Because every other **** event runs on Saturdays - Sundays give us a mostly clear store, and the ability to run 40 odd players!

But no.

Saturday.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

I still think you're overblowing where the blame is to be laid, though, in my personal opinion.

I mean, I know my store owner is at fault here too. Like I said in the post before last, and I'm sure I'm overblowing the whole thing.

I'm just pissed.

I've been scraping together a community since last December when our group fell apart and when we finally have all our **** sorted and actually get approved for regionals, THIS **** happens.... a bunch of people have had to bail because of the mistakes made here.

Like I said:

4 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Mistakes may have been made, but if we trace the fault back to it's origin, it starts with FFG.

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean...

Why is it up to FFG to determine what is best for the store in question?

Do they have that right? Especially when the store itself has to pay for the "privilege" in the end?

They should be completely unconcerned with what's best for the store in question and entirely concerned with what's best for the community and the image of their product. They have that right. It's their intellectual property, and how/when it's hosted should be held to a high standard.

While the store may have to pay for that privilege, let's not pretend that an event like this doesn't make money. As stated earlier, it get's people in the store and gives them good reason to dish out cash for product.

FFG states that what is best for Stores is best for them. As far as they are concerned, without Stores, there is no community.

That's their Policy.

That's the entire reason why AsmodeeNA cut discounts to online-only retailers and enacted a Brick-and-Mortar Gaming-Location store first policy. Incidentally, its also why dedicated, registered, and even governemnt-approved (in some locations) Gaming Clubs cannot access OP kits - only stores can.

That is what they believe is best for their Product. Their Intellectual property. The Image of their Product.

That Stores themselves are the key.

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

FFG states that what is best for Stores is best for them. As far as they are concerned, without Stores, there is no community.

That's their Policy.

That's the entire reason why AsmodeeNA cut discounts to online-only retailers and enacted a Brick-and-Mortar Gaming-Location store first policy. Incidentally, its also why dedicated, registered, and even governemnt-approved (in some locations) Gaming Clubs cannot access OP kits - only stores can.

That is what they believe is best for their Product. Their Intellectual property. The Image of their Product.

That Stores themselves are the key.

Then FFG clearly needs to get it's **** together.

While it may be true in an indirect sense, considering organized play, and while they lube the stores up really good with policies like this, if it's not good for the players what the **** good is it for the store?

We're down at least 5 people, likely more, because what they "believe is best for their product" allows for **** like this to happen.

There should be at least a week between any major national holiday and a formal or premier event.

If the store wants to run championships or quarterly kits on holiday weekends, let it, who cares, but when FFG lets the ONLY STORE IN A 300 MILE RADIUS set it's date on a holiday weekend it hurts the community, and the value of their product.

59 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Then FFG clearly needs to get it's **** together.

While it may be true in an indirect sense, considering organized play, and while they lube the stores up really good with policies like this, if it's not good for the players what the **** good is it for the store?

We're down at least 5 people, likely more, because what they "believe is best for their product" allows for **** like this to happen.

There should be at least a week between any major national holiday and a formal or premier event.

If the store wants to run championships or quarterly kits on holiday weekends, let it, who cares, but when FFG lets the ONLY STORE IN A 300 MILE RADIUS set it's date on a holiday weekend it hurts the community, and the value of their product.

And yet if it was in my area this would be one of the only weekends that I could go, as I work most weekends so having it on the long holiday weekend would help several in my local play area be able to make it.

24 minutes ago, CDAT said:

And yet if it was in my area this would be one of the only weekends that I could go, as I work most weekends so having it on the long holiday weekend would help several in my local play area be able to make it.

Sorry mate, as far as I'm concerned the majority should have rule here. The majority of players find a holiday weekend a outright **** time to schedule an event.

I contacted 3 major groups before we got our approval and asked whether they'd come, before the date was revealed, confirmed all yes. Now, I have 5 confirmed "no" and quite a few unanswered, from the looks of it. The entirety of the Columbus group won't be out. Many of the Cleveland area members are the ones confirmed "no" and I'm fairly certain the PA group, including @BiggsIRL and his guys are considering WV over OH because of the dates.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Then FFG clearly needs to get it's **** together.

While it may be true in an indirect sense, considering organized play, and while they lube the stores up really good with policies like this, if it's not good for the players what the **** good is it for the store?

We're down at least 5 people, likely more, because what they "believe is best for their product" allows for **** like this to happen.

There should be at least a week between any major national holiday and a formal or premier event.

If the store wants to run championships or quarterly kits on holiday weekends, let it, who cares, but when FFG lets the ONLY STORE IN A 300 MILE RADIUS set it's date on a holiday weekend it hurts the community, and the value of their product.

I'm not saying your wrong here, just want to play devil's advocate.

If you try to space it out from holidays, you'd find it difficult to ever have it.

Oct 7-9 Columbus/Native American day, Oct 28-31 not an official holiday, but tied up with lots of family based Halloween stuff. November 10-12 Veteran's Day. November 23rd through 26 is Thanksgiving. December 23rd through December 25th is Xmas. December 30 through January 1st is new years. January 14-16 is Martin Luther King Jr weekend. Some of those are obviously larger than others in scope, but some that might not matter to you may be incredibly important to others.

And that's only the stuff that applies specifically to White Christians in the United States. If you consider this North American and included other religions or people of other ethnic cultures things get crazy. Do you disrespect the veterans by making them choose between VFW events and regional? Do you worry about Canadian Thanksgiving, or family members of Pearl Harbor survivors that travel to be part of the remembrance? How about Revolution day? What about the Chinese New Year? Hanukkah? Kwanza? Feast of Tabernacles? Who gets priority? Who's a bigger PR disaster?

Should FFG be studying the diverse historical background of each area where events happen to try to decide what cultures to offend with their timing and placement of events?

Again, I'm not saying your wrong. It seems like a poor choice of weekends to me also. But FFG can't be expected to determine the best time and location for all the events around the globe, and doing so can open an entire new can of worms where they start butting heads with venues. (these 3 weekends work the best...too bad, we want THIS weekend...the store is closed that weekend due to store member getting married that day and all employees are part of the wedding party...too bad, that's the date)

Beyond all that, I doubt your venue ONLY carries FFG stuff right? Perhaps other events are happening, or maybe the store would have staffing issues for other times. Who knows.

Basically, it's a complicated mess for FFG to be any more involved than they are. So they step back, accept the plausible deniability, and let the venues select the dates.