2 minutes ago, Astech said:

Han with gunner? That neither won worlds nor was particularly successful - aces will dodge 2 gunner shots nearly as easily outside arc, and generics will be hit by the first shot. Han's best build has always been R2-D2, 3P0 and the old title to guarantee a win against any single ship.

Last year was a long time ago in the meta. Now there are a lot of things that can wipe out Expertise/Kanan Rey very, very quickly. Whenever I've faced Rey with an arc-dodger, or even Corran, it's been incredibly easy to consistently dodge that arc at PS 8.

8 minutes ago, spamdex said:

The problem with vi the old title and rey is if your out of arc youll have no dice modification . , and if you focus your not taking evade. Its like your making her alot harder to fly and i cant see what your gaining.

You want to maximise on her abilility so new title is a must. And it may be predictable but an experienced rey pilot will know that and take advantage of it. At least with expertise you can take a focus for defence .

If all Rey's attackers are inside her arc you're better off with a focus, statistically. But if it's down to a 1v1 having the option to evade is crucial.

You must be the first person to think that Han/Gunner isn't good. Sure, it never won worlds, but clearly lots of ships out there are terrible because they never won worlds. Soontir has always been rubbish! Corran IS an arc dodger. And it's not that difficult to dodge Rey's arc at any PS with an arc dodger. The only repositioning she has is maybe an engine upgrade - and, oh wait, the stressless sloop. Once it's down to 1v1, it very hard for any enemy to NOT be in Rey's arc, when she can sloop. Then with Expertise and the Focus, she doesn't need the evade...

I'm sorry, but at this point you either don't know what you're talking about, or just being deliberately obtuse.

1 minute ago, The Penguin UK said:

You must be the first person to think that Han/Gunner isn't good. Sure, it never won worlds, but clearly lots of ships out there are terrible because they never won worlds. Soontir has always been rubbish! Corran IS an arc dodger. And it's not that difficult to dodge Rey's arc at any PS with an arc dodger. The only repositioning she has is maybe an engine upgrade - and, oh wait, the stressless sloop. Once it's down to 1v1, it very hard for any enemy to NOT be in Rey's arc, when she can sloop. Then with Expertise and the Focus, she doesn't need the evade...

I'm sorry, but at this point you either don't know what you're talking about, or just being deliberately obtuse.

Sure, Han/Gunner is decent, but you're paying an awful lot of points for something that pretty much auto-loses to Miranda, or several TLTs. Gunner Han is a bad meta call, and will remain that way for a long time.

So with Rey, you say the sloop is important to keep ships in arc, then say that any arc-dodger can avoid that arc? Corran is the least of the arc-dodgers, as he doesn't have green turns, so if he can do it, many others can too. In other worse, the sloop merely adds a move to your dial. It's not essential, nor is it particularly potent at what it does. 1v1 means that the opponent ignored a 58+ point Rey in favour of some otherescort, which is typically foolish, but even in that case most arc-dodgers can either maintain range 3 (where autothrusters and focus+evade make them incredibly hard to hit), or hey dodge the arc and deal with an attack composed of wet noodles.

In this meta, Rey's best chance of getting the kind of ships she likes to shoot at in arc is when she mves at PS10, denying the arc-dodging shenanigans altogether.

Contraband Cybernetics has some significant downsides if you are planing to use it for a red maneuver. But at one point, I think that's okay. It's a contingency card, in my mind. Something to be used at an opportune moment rather than used at first possible opportunity. I'll be very interested to see if it and Inspring Recruit become buddies.

5 minutes ago, Astech said:

Sure, Han/Gunner is decent, but you're paying an awful lot of points for something that pretty much auto-loses to Miranda, or several TLTs. Gunner Han is a bad meta call, and will remain that way for a long time.

So with Rey, you say the sloop is important to keep ships in arc, then say that any arc-dodger can avoid that arc? Corran is the least of the arc-dodgers, as he doesn't have green turns, so if he can do it, many others can too. In other worse, the sloop merely adds a move to your dial. It's not essential, nor is it particularly potent at what it does. 1v1 means that the opponent ignored a 58+ point Rey in favour of some otherescort, which is typically foolish, but even in that case most arc-dodgers can either maintain range 3 (where autothrusters and focus+evade make them incredibly hard to hit), or hey dodge the arc and deal with an attack composed of wet noodles.

In this meta, Rey's best chance of getting the kind of ships she likes to shoot at in arc is when she mves at PS10, denying the arc-dodging shenanigans altogether.

Your contradiciting yourself here as your saying its not likely she will be in a 1v1 but you give her the old title so she can take an evade if shes 1v1?

Keeping a big base ship at r3 is pretty hard to do. If your flying away from them your not shooting them and if your flying towards them you wont be staying at r3 .

And just so we arent completly going off topic

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Contraband Cybernetics has some significant downsides if you are planing to use it for a red maneuver. But at one point, I think that's okay. It's a contingency card, in my mind. Something to be used at an opportune moment rather than used at first possible opportunity. I'll be very interested to see if it and Inspring Recruit become buddies.

I agree with you here sabine, they are probably going to be used together but with what build who knows

34 minutes ago, Astech said:

Sure, Han/Gunner is decent, but you're paying an awful lot of points for something that pretty much auto-loses to Miranda, or several TLTs. Gunner Han is a bad meta call, and will remain that way for a long time.

So with Rey, you say the sloop is important to keep ships in arc, then say that any arc-dodger can avoid that arc? Corran is the least of the arc-dodgers, as he doesn't have green turns, so if he can do it, many others can too. In other worse, the sloop merely adds a move to your dial. It's not essential, nor is it particularly potent at what it does. 1v1 means that the opponent ignored a 58+ point Rey in favour of some otherescort, which is typically foolish, but even in that case most arc-dodgers can either maintain range 3 (where autothrusters and focus+evade make them incredibly hard to hit), or hey dodge the arc and deal with an attack composed of wet noodles.

In this meta, Rey's best chance of getting the kind of ships she likes to shoot at in arc is when she mves at PS10, denying the arc-dodging shenanigans altogether.

Bringing up TLT's and Miranda as a reason Han is no good, is not a response to Rey, who suffers just as badly. The advantage Rey has is she can punch them in the face a bit harder than Han, but it's hardly an arguement in favour of a YT-1300.

If you don't have the sloop, yes, any arc dodger can avoid the arc. The advantage that the sloop gives you is it lets you change your direction easily and therefore try to maintain the arc, or, just as importantly, stop the arc dodger getting shots as you turn around that much easier. Not having the sloop and instead having plenty of evades doesn't help in that situation at all - in fact, it just makes it worse. Having PWT is no help against the arc dodgers you bring up - instead, it makes is essentially impossible.

If you're having problems keeping Rey on the board, it comes down to list building. I fly her with Lowhhrick - he is always the fist one targeted and he has Jyn and Jan - so suddenly Rey has a billion tokens. And can sloop, to maximise arc.

Anyway, seen as you're banging on about arc dodgers AND a meta call. Arc dodgers are not in the meta. At the moment it's been bombs and large ships. The only arc dodgy ship you see in Fenn. Now, that might well change as the meta shifts with the FAQ. If it does go back to arc dodgers, then you take VI and Engine Upgrade. But you still take Kanan and the title because then you can sloop and boost at PS10 and deal with the arc dodgy ships.

3 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

Just, no

Ok internet tough guy expert. I’ve used both versions, I think you’re wrong. Sloop Rey is not the best. You’re going to have to accept that people have had different experiences and formed different opinions.

3 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

As for Kanan - only 3 points to start with.

Sloop title is 1 point. Kanan is 3 points. Sloop + Kanan = 4 points.

6 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'm dying of laughter at the thought.

Did someone say Snuggling Compartments?

12 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Or she can fly with Kanan Jarrus and do S-Sloops + actions to her hearts content and never end up stressed.

And this is why I play with debris.

32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Did someone say Snuggling Compartments?

Dying. Positively dying.

3 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Sloop title is 1 point. Kanan is 3 points. Sloop + Kanan = 4 points.

So does the old title. Let's not be facetious.

2 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Ok internet tough guy expert. I’ve used both versions, I think you’re wrong. Sloop Rey is not the best. You’re going to have to accept that people have had different experiences and formed different opinions.

Well, you're the only one who thinks so. I'll await a different titled Rey to place at any major event.

1 hour ago, The Penguin UK said:

So does the old title. Let's not be facetious.

That’s my point. You’re saying any round that Finn isn’t being used you are losing 5 points. Same goes for not Kanan slooping. But sometimes you need to do things that aren’t optimal to gain other advantages, positional or otherwise.

Kanan sloop Rey isn’t bad. I just, after lots of play testing on the table and on Vassal, have come to the conclusion that the evade 3PO is better for my play style. It’s very tanky. The MF dial is good enough to keep ships in arc most of the time, when it’s not, you still have 3-4 dice.

9 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

Bringing up TLT's and Miranda as a reason Han is no good, is not a response to Rey, who suffers just as badly. The advantage Rey has is she can punch them in the face a bit harder than Han, but it's hardly an arguement in favour of a YT-1300.
...

If you're having problems keeping Rey on the board, it comes down to list building. I fly her with Lowhhrick - he is always the fist one targeted and he has Jyn and Jan - so suddenly Rey has a billion tokens. And can sloop, to maximise arc.

Anyway, seen as you're banging on about arc dodgers AND a meta call. Arc dodgers are not in the meta. At the moment it's been bombs and large ships. The only arc dodgy ship you see in Fenn. Now, that might well change as the meta shifts with the FAQ. If it does go back to arc dodgers, then you take VI and Engine Upgrade. But you still take Kanan and the title because then you can sloop and boost at PS10 and deal with the arc dodgy ships.

TLTs are massive in the meta. If a build can't deal with them you're probably not placing well in a tournament. Rey is so much better than Han against TLTs because she likes to close to range 1. Rey Vs 3 TLTs probably comes out in Rey's favour, which is reasonable at that point difference.

Lowhrick is a good partner, but unless you're running PTL on him you can't Jyn + reinforce every turn. Really, Lowhrick is no different than pre-nerf Biggs + Rex - they just mitigate damage until whatever's left can't beat Rey. I'd personally run a Lothal Rebel alongside Rey, because I then have a huge, dangerous meat shield I can use to either wreck a list or soak damage.

Arc-dodgers are in the meta - Dash, Vader and Fenn are all in the top 20 ships, and that's likely to increase dramatically now that the JM5K is out of action. Against a PS 9 arc-dodger, they can simply block the obvious sloop and line upshots with another ship. The sloop is, again, incredibly predictable.

12 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

next, Kanan lets you burst through debris fields like you're Dash Rendar

I thought that's what Dash Crew is for...? lol

6 hours ago, Astech said:

TLTs are massive in the meta. If a build can't deal with them you're probably not placing well in a tournament. Rey is so much better than Han against TLTs because she likes to close to range 1. Rey Vs 3 TLTs probably comes out in Rey's favour, which is reasonable at that point difference.

Lowhrick is a good partner, but unless you're running PTL on him you can't Jyn + reinforce every turn. Really, Lowhrick is no different than pre-nerf Biggs + Rex - they just mitigate damage until whatever's left can't beat Rey. I'd personally run a Lothal Rebel alongside Rey, because I then have a huge, dangerous meat shield I can use to either wreck a list or soak damage.

Arc-dodgers are in the meta - Dash, Vader and Fenn are all in the top 20 ships, and that's likely to increase dramatically now that the JM5K is out of action. Against a PS 9 arc-dodger, they can simply block the obvious sloop and line upshots with another ship. The sloop is, again, incredibly predictable.

And against TLTs, Han likes to close to range one. No reason he shouldn't against TLTs - again, you're making it sound like Han HAS to be flown a certain way. He has the engine upgrade to help. As for Rey, to reinforce the fact that Kanan/Sloop is best, if you are facing TLT's, the fact that you can sloop to prevent them bursting past you and can go through debris clouds with no stress only makes it easier.

Lowhhrick has experimental interface personally, it frees up his ept.

Dash is not what I would call an arc dodger. Sure, he CAN do it, but he's not knife fighting. At the moment especially, where he only has the barrel roll, he's easy to chase down with Rey - and guess what, I can sloop to prevent him being behind me for the entire game! Vader and Fenn are about - Vader more as a missile boat at the moment. Yes, the sloop is predictable, so you use the threat of it. 1 forward, or hard turn. And just because it's a good move, doesn't make it a bad one. I'm not sure how not having it makes you any harder to black. Also, a PS 9 arc dodger can't block the sloop as you move first.

2 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

And against TLTs, Han likes to close to range one. No reason he shouldn't against TLTs - again, you're making it sound like Han HAS to be flown a certain way. He has the engine upgrade to help. As for Rey, to reinforce the fact that Kanan/Sloop is best, if you are facing TLT's, the fact that you can sloop to prevent them bursting past you and can go through debris clouds with no stress only makes it easier.

Lowhhrick has experimental interface personally, it frees up his ept.

Dash is not what I would call an arc dodger. Sure, he CAN do it, but he's not knife fighting. At the moment especially, where he only has the barrel roll, he's easy to chase down with Rey - and guess what, I can sloop to prevent him being behind me for the entire game! Vader and Fenn are about - Vader more as a missile boat at the moment. Yes, the sloop is predictable, so you use the threat of it. 1 forward, or hard turn. And just because it's a good move, doesn't make it a bad one. I'm not sure how not having it makes you any harder to black. Also, a PS 9 arc dodger can't block the sloop as you move first.

Against TLTs han dies like a punk when the opponent does the obvious thing and splits the TLTs up. Han then can't do enough damage to close the deal, whereas Rey can. Additionally, when Han closes the gap he gets blocked, and Rey doesn't care much about that.

That's a pretty cool build.

Well, HLC Dash might be the worst knife fighter in the game... What he does excel at is staying at R3 of an opponent, with rocks in the way. With Lone Wolf and focus he's going do be doing more damage to you than you him in that scenario. Rey will be predictable no matter what you do, the key is PS 10 so your opponent's can only predict, and not react.

A PS 9 arc-dodger can block VI Rey, which is fairly common. Similarly, PS 8 aces will often be able to block Expertise Rey.

7 minutes ago, Astech said:

Against TLTs han dies like a punk when the opponent does the obvious thing and splits the TLTs up. Han then can't do enough damage to close the deal, whereas Rey can. Additionally, when Han closes the gap he gets blocked, and Rey doesn't care much about that.

That's a pretty cool build.

Well, HLC Dash might be the worst knife fighter in the game... What he does excel at is staying at R3 of an opponent, with rocks in the way. With Lone Wolf and focus he's going do be doing more damage to you than you him in that scenario. Rey will be predictable no matter what you do, the key is PS 10 so your opponent's can only predict, and not react.

A PS 9 arc-dodger can block VI Rey, which is fairly common. Similarly, PS 8 aces will often be able to block Expertise Rey.

So does Rey? Rey can do 1 extra damage a turn, which is not enough when the TLT's split up. The sloop at least helps because you can keep the opponents in arc.

I've played against the Lone Wolf Dash with Rey and with Dash against. Rey 'should' win every time. Usually, there will be nothing but debris on the map, so Rey and Kanan can move with impunity to keep up. Dash will do damage, sure, but Rey should be doing more, hopefully. It's a tough match up.

Then you've kind disagreed with yourself. 1 - PS10 Rey isn't necessary for Dash, it's 7v8. Secondly, having been the biggest proponent of VI Rey (it's somewhere on the boards), it just isn't necessary at the moment. I totally agree that if the PS9 aces turn up, it is. But at the moment, when it's ONLY vader and Fel, Ps8 with expertise is better. Especially when a lot of the aces have kicked up to 11. Not only is it much harder to be blocked, but you care even less about it as you don't need any actions to mod your dice. Plus you can use focus for defences to keep you around longer. And if an ace wants to spend all game blocking you - great! Kill the rest of his list.

25 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

So does Rey? Rey can do 1 extra damage a turn, which is not enough when the TLT's split up. The sloop at least helps because you can keep the opponents in arc.

I've played against the Lone Wolf Dash with Rey and with Dash against. Rey 'should' win every time. Usually, there will be nothing but debris on the map, so Rey and Kanan can move with impunity to keep up. Dash will do damage, sure, but Rey should be doing more, hopefully. It's a tough match up.

Then you've kind disagreed with yourself. 1 - PS10 Rey isn't necessary for Dash, it's 7v8. Secondly, having been the biggest proponent of VI Rey (it's somewhere on the boards), it just isn't necessary at the moment. I totally agree that if the PS9 aces turn up, it is. But at the moment, when it's ONLY vader and Fel, Ps8 with expertise is better. Especially when a lot of the aces have kicked up to 11. Not only is it much harder to be blocked, but you care even less about it as you don't need any actions to mod your dice. Plus you can use focus for defences to keep you around longer. And if an ace wants to spend all game blocking you - great! Kill the rest of his list.

Rey kills a Y-wing and/or Aggressor in 2 shots at R1, whereas Han takes 3 - that alone makes her better. If you can't keep a Y-wing in arc with the Falcon's dial there's something wrong - especially if it's a rebel Y-wing. A K-turn works just as well for the in-arc requirement, although you'll of course want to avoid it with the Expertise build.

It certainly is, and an actually fun one between PWTs. It'd probably come down to the wingmen.

Rey at PS 10 is fairly crucial against both RAC/Kylo and Nym - both of which get far better trades when you're out of arc, which they can do with ease at PS 10. In addition it's a far cheaper build, so you can bring in a decent wing man rather than a slimmed down one.

6 hours ago, Astech said:

Rey at PS 10 is fairly crucial against both RAC/Kylo and Nym - both of which get far better trades when you're out of arc, which they can do with ease at PS 10. In addition it's a far cheaper build, so you can bring in a decent wing man rather than a slimmed down one.

Against RAC/lo I'd rather have Determination on Rey. Played too many times against Kylo where the first ISYTDS was Damaged Cockpit, followed by Blinded Pilot x2.

23 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Did some say Snuggling Compartments?

Wrong picture. It needs to be the one of Han and Leia about to kisssn

14 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Wrong picture. It needs to be the one of Han and Leia about to kisssn

But she said she'd rather Kiss a Wookiee.

... and that Han could arrange that.

21 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

That’s my point. You’re saying any round that Finn isn’t being used you are losing 5 points. Same goes for not Kanan slooping. But sometimes you need to do things that aren’t optimal to gain other advantages, positional or otherwise.

Kanan sloop Rey isn’t bad. I just, after lots of play testing on the table and on Vassal, have come to the conclusion that the evade 3PO is better for my play style. It’s very tanky. The MF dial is good enough to keep ships in arc most of the time, when it’s not, you still have 3-4 dice.

I’ve played both and found that Rey/ Sloop couldn’t take the incoming fire, pretty much always first to die in list.

I’ve had much more success with C3/Evade, survives a lot longer.

Anyway, this is an old discussion, someone a while back was arguing that Sloop was better and someone else did some biased in favour of Sloop stats and it concluded that C3/Evade was still slightly better.

Surprised to see C3PO/old title argued as better when all of the Rey lists that make top cuts in tournaments have been sloop title. There’s room for taste/preference but if the question is which is the better Rey the performance so far seems to lean overwhelmingly in favor of sloop Rey.

5 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

Surprised to see C3PO/old title argued as better when all of the Rey lists that make top cuts in tournaments have been sloop title. There’s room for taste/preference but if the question is which is the better Rey the performance so far seems to lean overwhelmingly in favor of sloop Rey.

I think all that demonstrates is group think.