I have a tourney coming up and am a bit rusty from lack of playtime. I've had good luck with Madine's Liberty before and was going to pair it with Yavaris and a Toryn BCC Flotilla, but noticed that it is too close to the main stream lists right now (read with a stiff upper lip and puffed chest). I know I don't have enough experience to win so I'm there to make an interesting signpost for guys trying to win. I've never played a very low activation list, but will practice with this a bit if I can't be disuaded.

I bid 9 to play 2nd and turtle the superpickle to score objectives while Madine plays Tokyo drift - arc dodging his 6-7 red dice around mopping up small ships and flotillas. If he gets in closer, he will get the reroll with 2 more blues. I usually fly the Liberty with XI7's instead of QuadTurbos, but thought it would be funny with HomeOne (especially in blue range).

If you happen to have a similar mental illness to think this might work, what would you recommend to tune it for the current overall meta.

Hammer and Anvil
Author: dedios

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 391/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

[ flagship ] MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Quad Turbolaser Cannons ( 10 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 172 total ship cost

MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Home One ( 7 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
= 139 total ship cost

1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
1 VCX-100 Freighter ( 15 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)
1 YT-1300 ( 13 points)

Card view link

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

For the love of all that is holy don't play Station Assault.

Hmmm. That was not a part I was even contemplating as debatable. Interesting.... why do you say that?

I'm hoping for objectives that can score big for a prepared 2nd player or cause the opponent to be so focused on the objectives that they would be less effective in the slugfest. 20 hull worth of stations worth up to 80 points seemed like a good fit.

I've got a lot of respect for the @BrobaFett's opinion so I hope you will drop by again with your thought line.

There's a mc80L that's not a Mon Karren? I didn't know such a thing existed! It really is a valuable title.. and very annoying to go against.

Station assault will be OK here I think since you will be drawing them to where you want them to be. It will also force them to make a choice between shooting you or the stations which allows you more turns of killing them.

Sorry I had to cut that short hahah, I didn't intend to be so cryptic.

Playing for second player and leveraging objectives is a totally valid way to play the game. Honestly that's how I approached the game most of the time I have played. But Station Assault is a terrible terrible no good objective. If I see it in my opponents list, it is getting played, and I will score 80 pts off of it. Every. Single. Time. The stations are unbelievably flimsy and yes they draw fire off your ships but honestly not enough to be worth sacrificing 80 points. If you are going to play a list where you willingly cede first and last activation every single game you need to make sure those objectives CANNOT backfire for you. They need to be foolproof.

Looking at Red Objectives it is easier to cross them off the list and find one that works for us -

Station Assault and Targeting Beacons- These two objectives are pretty much garbage and should never be brought to a competitive game. They will either not contribute anything to you or in the case of Station Assault actively harm you (And I know some people are going to "but but but I had this one game..." both of these objectives, but seriously they are really bad)

Precision Strike, Most Wanted and Opening Salvo- These are great objectives that are not suited for your fleet at all and would almost always end up favoring your opponent.

Blockade Run and Close Range Intel Scan- These objectives don't hurt you, but the scoring potential is so low for them from your fleet that they don't truly pose a threat to your opponent in this type of fleet. They aren't super likely to backfire, but will most likely end up in a situation where they are 0-sum, and if you are going to INTENTIONALLY PLAY FOR SECOND you need objectives that are going to win you the game because of the points they can generate for you.

Advanced Gunnery- So you end up with this, the last red objective not already listed. It is the only one that will stand even a chance of dissuading someone from picking your red over yellow and blue. A H1 class with Advanced Gunnery is a real threat to just about anything in the game. Problem is, your fleet is set up where the H1 basically has no teeth, which takes the punch out of even this objective.

So IMO the options are either run a sub optimal objective like Close Range Intel and know that you need to avoid any large base ships because you will not have the combined arms to take them down, or take a bit of the combat role from the liberty and shift it to the H1 to make it a little better equipped to make Advanced Gunnery a threat. Perhaps even to the point of breaking down the Home One Title, Spinal, and Quad Turbo combo (total of 26 pts) and breaking it into cheaper upgrades accross both ships to make them combat equals instead of heavily weighted in favor of Battle Cruiser.

I never want to step on toes by making too many changes, but this is where I kind of ended up with the concept. Toss it all in the trash if you like, but take to heart the objective selection because all too often I see a great list with 2 great objectives and then there is simply no good third option and they open themselves up to bad bad beats because they pick second and go with an objective that ends up favoring their opponent far more than yourself.

hipster list

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Sensor Net

MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 154 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 164 total ship cost

1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points)
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points)

The reason I would consider Station Assault is that it dictates the movements of the opponents fleet. When you have 2 big slow ships that you can park somewhere this can be an OK objective to lure them into bad spots with the very tempting 80 points. I realize that with smart obstacle placing this can be overcome by the first player and that the stations melt under fire, but I don't think it's unplayable.

That being said, I have never successfully defended the stations

Wow! I've not played many games with much of an online community, but guys like you consistently amaze me with the time you take to provide insights.

Thanks again. If I keep going with the bloated duo, I'll let you know how it turned out (and if I ever took the Stations and then if I ever managed to defend them).

I'm still unsure if I'm going to do this, or retreat to a more conventional list with either an Admo or Yavaris and maybe even a flotilla.

Other comments are still welcome if anyone has other ideas about this mess.

8 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

I don't think it's unplayable.

That being said, I have never successfully defended the stations

For what it's worth, your experience lines up with mine Have to disagree with you, in a gentlemanly fashion of course, about that first part though.

@deDios I think your pair of dreadnaughts are quite nice, and maybe even GiledPalleon (something odd is happening and I can't link anyone else for some reason) will stop by and throw in his 2 cents. He has done a lot of work on double large ship fleets and how the are successful.

Low activation lists can either go amazing or horrible lol. Hope to god you dont face a sloane list, your lists look decent to me, though i wonder why you dont have your admiral on the tanky pickle?

I ran this list twice casually (1W,1L) and it was fun to fly

Jan Ors and the 2 YT13s had great fun flying around, while shara and the Awing just ran amuck through low health ties hahaha

First game i got mon karren stuck in a bad position which took it out, but second game i flew her much better and took out an imp star in 2 rounds

2-activation (391/400)
=====================
MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 + 64)
+ General Madine (30)
+ Engineering Captain (6)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Advanced Projectors (6)
+ High-Capacity Ion Turbines (8)
+ Home One (7)
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 37)
+ Intel Officer (7)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Spinal Armament (9)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Mon Karren (8)
Jan Ors (19)
Shara Bey (17)
2 x YT-1300 (13)
A-wing Squadron (11)

27 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

For what it's worth, your experience lines up with mine Have to disagree with you, in a gentlemanly fashion of course, about that first part though.

@deDios I think your pair of dreadnaughts are quite nice, and maybe even GiledPalleon (something odd is happening and I can't link anyone else for some reason) will stop by and throw in his 2 cents. He has done a lot of work on double large ship fleets and how the are successful.

You rang? (Actual helpful post will go here when I get home). TL;DR I've never used dissimilar 80s, dissimilar anything isn't my playstyle. However, the ability of either ship to be beatstick is key. This means both firepower and ability to maneuver. To that end, I suggest (not recommend, haven't tried) moderately equipped Star Cruiser, defensively loaded H1, ET for everyone, and here comes the heresy, Admiral Ackbar. I also suggest consulting @Paindemic7708 whose dissimilar 80's made to to Autumn semis.

PS Broba is right, Station Assault is bad whenever a GSR Interdictor isn't around, and it's still hyper dicey then. I've tried it a lot, and while the maneuver force is strong, it's rarely enough to allow your battleships the edge they need.

1 minute ago, GiledPallaeon said:

PS Broba is right, Station Assault is bad whenever a GSR Interdictor isn't around, and it's still hyper dicey then. I've tried it a lot, and while the maneuver force is strong, it's rarely enough to allow your battleships the edge they need.

Problem is a GSR Interdictor shifts the stations almost to the board edge......... and then they move away from them because they can't go speed 0! So it leaves them completely open to shots of opportunity from the ship I having flank the interdictors anyway. It only takes 2 turns to race across the board and be shooting at the stations even with them tucked in a corner. It just doesn't work.

8 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Problem is a GSR Interdictor shifts the stations almost to the board edge......... and then they move away from them because they can't go speed 0! So it leaves them completely open to shots of opportunity from the ship I having flank the interdictors anyway. It only takes 2 turns to race across the board and be shooting at the stations even with them tucked in a corner. It just doesn't work.

Like I said, dicey. The most modern dual I-1 build could probably deal with defending it better than the older fittings, but it's still the Blockade Run Problem (reciprocal courses at high speed).

If for some godforsaken reason you like whatever cockamamie Ackbar list I slap together when I get home, definitely do AG for the red. No sane player should take it, so get confident with the yellow and blue.

Bothan prudence... I will not plan to use Station Assault at the Tourney, but will probably obsess over getting it to work in casual play.

@DrakonLord Wow, that is incredible how similar it is to this one! I'd miss pushing a decent squadron wing around, but the smug grin a guy could put on his face while the other side of the table sifts through his options when this fleet is so much simpler has got to be worth something in casual play.

@GiledPallaeon I'll look into balancing their abilities. I was actually going for asymmetry here, but maybe a little more balance would be good if the objectives didn't go to Thrawn-like perfection. Dropping Madine for a merfolk (albeit a respectable one) is maybe more than I can handle, however. The rationale for Madine on the Liberty is because if that ship is lost, Madine isn't as crucial anymore, but losing him makes the Liberty far more vulnerable.

@BrobaFett That list of yours is evil and pretty close to what I was trying to do. I'd miss my nearly maxed out MC80L, but I think that your Defiant is evil enough to be worth the H1+QBT shenanigans loss. You are no stepping on my toes unless you suggest your changes are mandatory. I love talking options.

It is very rare to talk list building in western ND. I need to stop by this sub-forum more often.

2 hours ago, durandal343 said:

There's a mc80L that's not a Mon Karren? I didn't know such a thing existed! It really is a valuable title.. and very annoying to go against.

Station assault will be OK here I think since you will be drawing them to where you want them to be. It will also force them to make a choice between shooting you or the stations which allows you more turns of killing them.

I nearly always use XI7's on my MC80L and find the Mon Karren to be almost redundant with it, but the XI7's deal with Adv Projectors better. If I need the Turbolaser slot for something else, then Mon Karren goes in, otherwise I try to save the points. In some ways, this list is ironically my attempt to use the Turbo slot for something else, and then didn't re-add the Mon Karren title when I needed it. Thanks for the catch.

So I've sat down and done some thinking, but I really don't think I can do better than Broba's list. Normally I start with a Star Cruiser, which only needs one change from Broba's list, LS to SW-7, for a new small bid, but otherwise it's solid. If you want I can try to expound on how I've come to fight with two Larges, but my experience running two Larges without any other ships is fairly limited. As far as putting Madine on the Battle Cruiser, I can understand the logic. Just be sure to protect the ship.

Pallaeon to Madine, "Well, take care of yourself. I guess that is what your best at isn't it."

Madine, "Hey Gil. May the force be with you."

I'd love to get some tips on flying (and a regaling of your history with) two-dreadnaught fu, but dont feel like you have to. You guys have done way more than I counted on here. You were summoned by name to this campfire you know...

I've nearly got a retooled list to account for some of my style quirks and lack of practical experience (yet). Hopefully I'll get to run a version of it this weekend.

27 minutes ago, deDios said:

Bothan prudence... I will not plan to use Station Assault at the Tourney, but will probably obsess over getting it to work in casual play.

@DrakonLord Wow, that is incredible how similar it is to this one! I'd miss pushing a decent squadron wing around, but the smug grin a guy could put on his face while the other side of the table sifts through his options when this fleet is so much simpler has got to be worth something in casual play.

@GiledPallaeon I'll look into balancing their abilities. I was actually going for asymmetry here, but maybe a little more balance would be good if the objectives didn't go to Thrawn-like perfection. Dropping Madine for a merfolk (albeit a respectable one) is maybe more than I can handle, however. The rationale for Madine on the Liberty is because if that ship is lost, Madine isn't as crucial anymore, but losing him makes the Liberty far more vulnerable.

@BrobaFett That list of yours is evil and pretty close to what I was trying to do. I'd miss my nearly maxed out MC80L, but I think that your Defiant is evil enough to be worth the H1+QBT shenanigans loss. You are no stepping on my toes unless you suggest your changes are mandatory. I love talking options.

It is very rare to talk list building in western ND. I need to stop by this sub-forum more often.

19 minutes ago, deDios said:

I nearly always use XI7's on my MC80L and find the Mon Karren to be almost redundant with it, but the XI7's deal with Adv Projectors better. If I need the Turbolaser slot for something else, then Mon Karren goes in, otherwise I try to save the points. In some ways, this list is ironically my attempt to use the Turbo slot for something else, and then didn't re-add the Mon Karren title when I needed it. Thanks for the catch.

I find the intel officer-X17-mon karren combo to be one of the ultimate builds of a liberty. Its a case of:

" well u can only use one defense token"

"Ok, ****"

"Im going to intel officer the brace, so u use it, ya lose it"

"I hate you"

"And if u redirect, thanks to X-17, u can only suffer 1 damage on a different hull zone"

"......."

(And then in this fleet particularly you add one more line of...)

"Oh and before i forget i accuracy the _______ with the Home One title changing this red blank to a accuracy"

Hehehe, but i can see how people can find X-17 with mon karren redundant, its just amazing especially facing a costly ship and reducing its defense tokens to useless pieces of cardboard.

In casual games its quite enjoyable to see your opponent realise that no matter how this turns out, hes gonna be either losing that brace or getting deal a lot of damage

That list with madine was one of the first i put together with the liberty. I later changed madine for rieekan which was fun before i settled on Dodonna as admiral and using the points for an extra squadron. The similarities between our lists was what got me as well lol.

I'll try to swing back by after my circuits test tomorrow night. Long and the short of it is I've never really given up on dual ISDs (partially because I own two), and most of my breaks until Sloane involved flying two of the two Rebel Larges. I'm used to both being outactivated and being second player, both as a result of that I am a list builder who builds what he wants and gets around to making it tourney legal later. I'll try to be back with ideas and experience tomorrow, but I have three or four threads in here you can read if you're curious. Newest is the Giled's Quest one, also Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Motti's Dreadnoughts if you dig deep enough, and a batrep in that subforum about the time I tried dual H180s with Garm.

8 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

Problem is a GSR Interdictor shifts the stations almost to the board edge......... and then they move away from them because they can't go speed 0! So it leaves them completely open to shots of opportunity from the ship I having flank the interdictors anyway. It only takes 2 turns to race across the board and be shooting at the stations even with them tucked in a corner. It just doesn't work.

G7's

You do not have ships flanking unless the interdictor player failed on the basics.

7 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

G7's

You do not have ships flanking unless the interdictor player failed on the basics.

I'll see your G7's and raise a you Nav Command + Coms/Hondo nav token. I still get there turn 2.

I get it though. If they have Kontstantine, double tractor beams, G8 experimentals, G7 well, and Grav shift then they can keep me away from the stations and protect them. But anything else and even trudging along speed 1 I will eventually kill the stations.

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

I'll see your G7's and raise a you Nav Command + Coms/Hondo nav token. I still get there turn 2.

I get it though. If they have Kontstantine, double tractor beams, G8 experimentals, G7 well, and Grav shift then they can keep me away from the stations and protect them. But anything else and even trudging along speed 1 I will eventually kill the stations.

Exactly. And that is a viable list with Station Assault, Contested Outpost and Salvage Run.

There are a few other builds that can do Station assault as well, however they tend to have a large compliment of bombers.