Let's assume we got ship with Harpooned condition hit by the next attack with Harpoon Missles (Crit included). Ship is killed by the second attack.

How many splash dmg there will be? 1 or 2?

Looking at Timing Chart it should be 2 splash dmg: 1 for the crit removing 1st Condition, and second for destroying the ship, as second condition is applied before ship is removed (condition is applied in step 8, removing ships is in step 10 of Timing Chart)

I am right and Harpoon Missles (especially in packs) are that broken?

Yes it looks like that. I believe it is 2. Your reasoning agrees with my understanding.

Looks like we will be seeing a lot of Harpoon Missile. Can't wait till Saturation Salvo gets added to that mix.

My feeling is that the intention is that the condition is applied after the entire table has been dealt with - otherwise it would have an 'after attacking' timing on the application. THe fact that they used new wording makes me think they intended a new timing.

But they didn't clarify it in the FAQ so who the frak knows really

“After an attack resolves” definitely fits into after attacking effects so should happen in step 8. Given how many things have after attacking effects that don’t use the after attacking verbiage makes the actual wording less important in my mind.

My reasoning is that you replace “after an attack resolves” with “after attacking” it is still makes sense. There really isn’t any other place where it logically fits in the timing chart. The fact that the resolve is absent from the timing chart seems to me that it is about as useful as “immediately”.

5 minutes ago, ID X T said:

“After an attack resolves” definitely fits into after attacking effects so should happen in step 8. Given how many things have after attacking effects that don’t use the after attacking verbiage makes the actual wording less important in my mind.

My reasoning is that you replace “after an attack resolves” with “after attacking” it is still makes sense. There really isn’t any other place where it logically fits in the timing chart. The fact that the resolve is absent from the timing chart seems to me that it is about as useful as “immediately”.

Which is an entirely reasonable position, and that's why the card needs FAQing to clarify what it's actually supposed to mean.

Learn to freaking template FFG.

The attack that applies Harpooned condition cannot trigger effect on the condition card...

The attack is resolved when the whole chart is completed. This should be confirmed by FAQ for Double Edge or Wes Jason (even earlier):

“Double Edge”: When resolving the ability of "Double Edge," the ship can choose to resolve an attack with either its primary weapon or an equipped ? or ? secondary weapon that it did not just perform an attack with. If a ? secondary weapon was not discarded due to Munitions Failsafe, the ship cannot use its ability to attack again with that weapon.

Wes Janson: When a ship is defending against Wes Janson, it may use focus, evade, and target lock tokens during the attack. Wes Janson’s ability does not remove a token until after the attack has been fully resolved.

Therefore I would risk a statement that after the attack resolves is different than after attacking.

1 hour ago, SaszaPL said:

The attack that applies Harpooned condition cannot trigger effect on the condition card...

The attack is resolved when the whole chart is completed. This should be confirmed by FAQ for Double Edge or Wes Jason (even earlier):

“Double Edge”: When resolving the ability of "Double Edge," the ship can choose to resolve an attack with either its primary weapon or an equipped ? or ? secondary weapon that it did not just perform an attack with. If a ? secondary weapon was not discarded due to Munitions Failsafe, the ship cannot use its ability to attack again with that weapon.

Wes Janson: When a ship is defending against Wes Janson, it may use focus, evade, and target lock tokens during the attack. Wes Janson’s ability does not remove a token until after the attack has been fully resolved.

Therefore I would risk a statement that after the attack resolves is different than after attacking.

I would tend to lean toward this interpretation myself, but it's really not clear either way. If "after attack resolves" is suppossed to be different, like after the complete end of the timing chart, it would be nice if it was more explicit that that was the case. If it's NOT suppossed to be different, it would be nice if they could have just said after attacking instead of using different wording.

Thematically it would actually make more sense for the Harpoon to go ahead and do the splash damage if it kills the ship the same turn it's fired, because preaumably the idea is the missile is detonating when the ship explodes. However I realize that thematic relavance has zero weight in a rules discussion.

I went ahead and shot an email asking for clarification.

Even if the condition is applied at step 8, it still doesn't get triggered because the ship isn't destroyed in step 10. It's destroyed in step 7

So the first condition is triggered from a crit at/after step 6, then the ship is destroyed at step 7, then you can assign the second condition at step 8

The only way to trigger a harpooned condition from the attack that assigned it, is when attacking a ship of the same PS that hasn't attacked yet, because the simultaneous attack rules states that it isn't destroyed until after it has had its own opportunity to attack.

To backup @jokerkd here, this is from the actual FAQ section of the FAQ:

Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?
A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the “Deal Damage” step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship’s pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

Only 1 splash because the condition is discarded after you recieve a crit. Beeing hit by an attack is step 6 and removing destroyed ship is step 10.

35 minutes ago, DaProfezzur said:

Only 1 splash because the condition is discarded after you recieve a crit. Beeing hit by an attack is step 6 and removing destroyed ship is step 10.

0. Have condition

1. Recive crit - splash dmg (step 6)

2. Discard previous condition

3. Put next condition (step 8)

4. Die and next splash dmg (step 10)

I don't think it's intended, but until clarified will spread confusion.

Yup.

I've already identified this as a major point of confusion in need of FAQ. Hopefully we'll get one after Wave 12 that clarifies it.

There's an issue that it's not clear when the condition is to be applied, there's also an issue that it's not actually clear when ships are destroyed, triggering the condition, anyway.

41 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There's an issue that it's not clear when the condition is to be applied, there's also an issue that it's not actually clear when ships are destroyed, triggering the condition, anyway.

It's actually pretty clear when ships are destroyed. Per the section I quoted from the FAQ, abilities that trigger upon destruction go off when the damage cards are dealt, which is generally Step 7. You just aren't removed from the table until Step 10. Harpooned!, meanwhile, can't be applied any earlier than Step 8.

Thus, failing Simultaneous Fire, it is impossible for you to kill someone with a Harpoon and trigger the condition from that same Harpoon.

The full process would be:

1. Have condition.

2. Receive uncancelled critical result in Step 6; resolve & discard condition.

3. Deal damage cards equal to hull; ship is destroyed (Step 7).

4. Assign condition (Step 8).

5. Remove destroyed ship (Step 10).

I'm not gonna write it all out again, but suffice it to say, there's enough wooliness in the language that at the very least it could do with clarifying. The FAQ says different things in different places.

56 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

0. Have condition

1. Recive crit - splash dmg (step 6)

2. Discard previous condition

3. Put next condition (step 8)

4. Die and next splash dmg (step 10)

I don't think it's intended, but until clarified will spread confusion.

But harpoon condition only enters after attack resolves. So if the ship is destroyed it never recieves the condition.

In our case, we (temporarilly) solved it by comparing the harpoon missile and the assault missile trigger conditions:

Assault missile: "If this attack hits..."

Harpoon: "If this attack hits, after the attack resolves..."

If the "after the attack resolves" would have no meaning, then they would have been better off not putting it altogether. So we ruled that if a ship is destroyed by the harpoon missile, the condition is not applied in time since it is applied after the attack resolves. A FAQ entry would be nice, however.

Another part is that comes to mind is that the harpoon missile should have "something" that makes it slightly weaker than the assault missile in some respect. Otherwise it would be too much of an obvious power creep. None of us can know the developpers intent, however, so the latter is merely a personal opinion, not something that can be used to sway an argument.

The obvious something is that the splash damage is delayed and the enemy can suicide charge you once he has the condition. Both of those are big downsides.

Does the splash damage of a destroyed ship also happen if the ship is destroyed by the harpoon missiles? I read it like it does, since the ship first gets the harpooned condition, then gets destroyed, thereby triggering the "When destroyed..." condition?

The ship is actually destroyed (Step 7) before it gets the harpooned condition (Step 8), and since it cannot be destroyed again it cannot trigger the destroyed effect of a harpooned! condition assigned after it was destroyed.

Quote

• Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?
• A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the "Deal Damage" step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship's pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

- X-Wing FAQ "FAQ: Timing Chart for Performing an Attack"

On 03/11/2017 at 9:35 PM, thespaceinvader said:

I'm not gonna write it all out again, but suffice it to say, there's enough wooliness in the language that at the very least it could do with clarifying. The FAQ says different things in different places.

It's the simultaneous fire rule that causes the problems. The fact that a ship is destroyed at step 7 doesn't

Harpoon does NOT -EVER- double splash.

The trigger for the Crit says to do splash dmg and receiving another card but to also REMOVE the condition, so you never finish reading the text that goes on to say if you die you splash damage. It never happens.

You guys are reading way too much into a 4 pt super missile thats already way too good for its price.

5 hours ago, c3lb said:

Does the splash damage of a destroyed ship also happen if the ship is destroyed by the harpoon missiles? I read it like it does, since the ship first gets the harpooned condition, then gets destroyed, thereby triggering the "When destroyed..." condition?

Best guess is Harpoons can never cause the splash damage from the condition that that harpoon missile would apply - the crit splash hapens at the wrong time, and the destroyed splash we assume to happen before the conditionwould be applied too. The different wording implies that it's not a standard ;after attacking' timing.

But as ever, it's not 100% clear and wants an official ruling.