41 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Sort of like how X-wings were worthless, amiright?

Is this meant to be an indication of how badass awesome their eventual fix will be?

Because, you know, I could probably live with that.

The most powerful ship in the game being one which fires strictly in arc, with no default repositioning actions, and the most average dial of averageness in the game?

Well, at least there's counterplay.

5 hours ago, wurms said:

But, if you take guidance chips away, then aces come out to play. Not sure whats worse. I think there just needs to be an ordnance counter like a small ship countermeasure.

Mod, 2pts

"At the beginning of combat phase, you may discard this card to add 1 agility to your ship until the end of the round. If you do, until the end of the round when defending, the attacker's dice may only be modified by spending focus tokens or target locks."

Basically shuts down guindance chips for a single round and saves ships from alpha strikes. Doesnt completely kill ordnance. And it isnt purely for ordnance, as it can shutdown expertise, predator, etc. for a single round as well if you are in a bad spot.

One of the things I hate most in this game was the Advent of "hard counters". When you set up your squad across from me, and I see that it has upgrades and abilities that specifically nullify my carefully chosen upgrades and abilities, it's so disheartening that I almost don't even feel like playing. I'm. Okay with weaknesses, but having cards that straight up counter other cards...ugh. it's like the pre-nerf TIE phantom: without PS 10 or Rebel Captive, you were up a creek without a paddle.

That said, I think your proposed modification is actually quite interesting. I like how it doesn't just focus on the ordnance with Guidance Chips, and that it still allows the ordnance to be fired (although the opponent will likely skip firing that turn). The fact that it's one-time-use upgrade makes it more fair. Nice idea. I like it in spite of my disdain for counters.

I also find it funny how nobody really complained about missiles and torpedoes until Jumpmasters came around, hmmmmmm, really makes you wonder who the real enemy is...certainly not the undercosted ship with the ridiculously good combos and amazing dial!

Coming out with a cheaper and more powerful ordinance every wave now is the real source of the problem.

There is no Goldilocks zone for ordnance, neither for bombs, tractors, ions, stress, dial manipulation, etc.
Either they are not good enough, or they become too good .

If they aren't good enough to match the efficiency/ease of use/versatility of jouster/arcdodgers/turrets, you don't see them anywhere. Because, why bother?
If they reach that point that they can hold their ground or even beat any of those classic archetypes, then people will start yelling "Negative Play Experience!".

For many, even turrets are NPE. Even Arcdodgers are NPE for jousters! Anything that moves away from the core set design of two jousting ships jousting will detract from someone's expectation on the game. And I am not saying this with any sarcasm.

There is certain simulationism component on the game, in the sense that game pieces need to remind to the lore. Ordnance, in the lore, is about huge alpha strikes, damage peaks or almost unavoidable attacks.
In this game, either of those will cause someone to feel cheated. Alpha strikes ruin low PS/low repositionable ships' lives. Damage peaks ruin regen/low mitigation ships. And almost unavoidable attacks ruin glass cannons' lives.

How you balance that out?
If you neuter ordnance not to ruin anyone's life, then it ceases to be effective. Everyone goes back to whatever is effective that ruins other people's lives, be it turrets, arcdodgers, whatever.

I don't like Chips, they should cost a point.

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't like Chips

I prefer fries myself

• I don't mind them; they do go a long way to making older ordance worth its points.
• Newer ordnance (like cruise missiles) would probably have been worth its points even without them - especially with extra munitions, scavenger crane and reload giving you multiple uses of the same ordnance.
• They do come with an opportunity cost - whilst they're 0 points, not taking Lightweight Frame, Autothrusters, or Integrated Astromech is a relatively big deal.

22 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I prefer fries myself

I imagine you also prefer wearing the faces of your victims.

What kind of madman prefers fries over chips?

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Exactly this. The counter is a mod like above. It could cleverly be called "chaff dispenser. " I would make it a +2 die defense against missiles, torps, and bombs. I would also make is it 0 points, just like chips. The risk is you don't see ordnance, the reward is you do.

It's thematic, doesn't create errata, and now becomes part of list building choices.

Lastly, I tried for 2 years to make lists with missiles and torps worth it. They never were. Chips changed all that for the better.

Stealth Device

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

I prefer fries myself

And you call yourself British?

Getting rid of fries is the main reason I voted for Brexit!

26 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And you call yourself British?

Getting rid of fries is the main reason I voted for Brexit!

Actually, I call myself European, there's nothing "Great" about Britain.

I would also like to take this opportunity to clarify that I meant the Americanis(z)ed "Chips" and not the British "Chips", which are two entirely different things. Not that fries aren't superior to both.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Actually, I call myself European, there's nothing "Great" about Britain.

I would also like to take this opportunity to clarify that I meant the Americanis(z)ed "Chips" and not the British "Chips", which are two entirely different things. Not that fries aren't superior to both.

What kind of madman prefers fries over chips?

Poutine?

Chili cheese fries?

waffle fries in Polynesian sauce from Chic Fil A?

call me a madman!

13 hours ago, Warlon said:

Okay, everyone calls it a 0 point upgrade, but it's not. Can you use it on primary weapon attacks? No. Are there any secondary missiles/torpedoes that cost 0 points? No. The cheapest thing you can use with GC is Flechette Torpedoes which comes at 2 points, so effectively the upgrade itself costs two points because you can only use it if you equip a torpedo or missile. Even on Flechette Torpedoes it's not super amazing because it's only 3 attack dice, and nowadays you need to be rolling 4+ to be considered "competitive".

So no, GC is fine.

Come on. Picking one of the worst ordnance available to "prove" your point is the definition of a strawman argument.

9 minutes ago, tangoraven said:

Come on. Picking one of the worst ordnance available to "prove" your point is the definition of a strawman argument.

I picked Flechette Torpedoes because it's the cheapest. I believe I also stated that they weren't very good. If you take Guidance Chips on a ship and don't take any secondary weapons then yeah, it's a 0 point upgrade that's about as useful as putting munitions Fail-Safe on a TIE Fighter.

The point is that GC comes with a tax, because if you take just the upgrade itself it doesn't help you in any way except maybe looking cool sitting over your pilot card. I didn't pick Flechette Torpedoes because it was the "worst" I picked it because it's the cheapest damaging option available to you that you can use in combination with GC.

15 hours ago, Rettere said:

There is 0% chance ordnance gets nerfed on the eve of the MISSILE BOAT dropping...

its an imperial ship.

It will get nerfed very quick if it proves to be strong. See the x7 title. Or phantom for that matter (though i think that lasted longer than the x7 did before being nerfed)

Nonimperial ships take a year or more to receive a nerfhammer.

14 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would make it a +2 die defense against missiles, torps, and bombs. I would also make is it 0 points, just like chips.

4 hours ago, vtarin said:

Stealth Device

Yeah, exactly like Stealth Device, except for the extra die, limited use, and 3 point difference in cost.

Harpoons and to a lesser extent Cruise missiles are the problem. Munitions have historically been quite middling for the following reasons:

• Dice modification. Historically, you needed to spend a TL in order to get any missile out the door. Without GChips or a way to generate a focus, you were often looking at nice reds that would hit only as well as a fully modified primary attack from another ship. GChips went a long way in giving that extra nudge to make the points cost worth it. This is further compounded by the fact that target locks are harder to obtain on low PS ships, of which quite a few ordnance carriers are. Now that there are 2-3 inexpensive missile options that let you maintain your lock, AND Gchips, you are now looking at fully modded 4-5 dice attacks.
• Harpoons: These are pretty frankly red-dice/ability/complexity creep. They realistically should cost at least 5 points as written. They are more or less strictly better than Concussion missiles. If you can stack these on a 3 primary ships (which, surprise surprise, the Scurgg....) you also get a pretty simple way to trigger Harpooned! on the following rounds. It is cool that they are adding options for more ships to meaningfully use ordnance but I predict this upgrade is going to cause lots of problems. Also, as a minor complaint: I don't really get these missiles thematically. You're shooting a missile that does as much as an explosive warhead -- but it also sticks into them and doesn't detonate until shot again? It's odd. The wording is going to prompt a lot of FAQ concerns as well.
• Cruise: Probably just about right as cost per/shot goes, and realistically it can be flown around fairly well with range management -- the full 5 dice may only come out on the first run -- and TBH, Harpoons
• Torpedoes: torps are moving towards obsolescence. None of them have the baked in TL and they're generally overpriced compared to the newer generation of missiles. Which is a shame because there's really some good stuff and cool cards in the mix. Redline, who I fly regularly, is about the only ship who can double-mod ordnance. And, I know this isn't common knowledge, but Punishers aren't considered good.
• Volume: Extra munitions went a long way -- many ships won't live to needs more than 2x munitions in their lifetime -- games where you can discharge all the ordnance on a fully loaded punisher are few and far between. Now we have the reload action making its way in, currently exclusive to imperials but not for long (I have a feeling the T-65 may be getting the reload action, just a hunch). Hopefully the ships with reload will be costed appropriately and there is a significant penalty associated with reload to be fair (Gunboat has neat tricks for getting around this which do seem appropriately costed).

Guidance Chips, EM, and Reload are likely not the issue. The issue is the fundamentally more efficient ordnance that is being released. Nerfing Gchips or EM would really just punish ordnance that is already of questionable utility.

15 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Like Deadeye , Guidance Chips is of zero use to you once you have fired your ordnance. It's a one-shot wonder.

It's perfectly fine as is.

Reload, Scav crane, extra munitions

3 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

Reload, Scav crane, extra munitions

Uncompetitive, situational, costs more points.

I stand by my original statement.

Guidance chips were a lazy fix when they introduced it.
Now it's just even more stupid, since they fixed Missiles again, with new cards not discarding TL.

The good option now would be to errata all missiles so that every one of those get the "don't discard TL" treatment; and errata Torpedoes so that they deal one more damage if the attack hits.
Then ban the Chips. Work done, and we even get two different type of ordnance for the two different slots.

6 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Guidance chips were a lazy fix when they introduced it.
Now it's just even more stupid, since they fixed Missiles again, with new cards not discarding TL.

The good option now would be to errata all missiles so that every one of those get the "don't discard TL" treatment; and errata Torpedoes so that they deal one more damage if the attack hits.
Then ban the Chips. Work done, and we even get two different type of ordnance for the two different slots.

Yeah pretty much agree here. The distinction between torp and missile always seemed completely random and wishywashy. It would much cooler if missiles had a class effects and torps had another that work out to be roughly mathematically equal but situationally more or less useful.

On 11/1/2017 at 1:45 AM, CRCL said:

I imagine you also prefer wearing the faces of your victims.

What kind of madman prefers fries over chips?

Someone who doesn't have dip made from Lipton onion soup mix and sour cream to dip their chips in, that's who.

7 hours ago, T70 Driver said:

Someone who doesn't have dip made from Lipton onion soup mix and sour cream to dip their chips in, that's who.

This guy gets it.