Is it legal to use Knockback to throw LTs off of the exit part of the map in an encounter with one, thereby forcing them to flee? My gut says no, but I can't find anything prohibiting it in the rules. Maybe its meant to be a penalty to those cowardly lieutenants who hide near the exit spaces? If it is legal could monsters then do it to heroes? I was just wondering, it seems wierd, yet Knockback can throw you into all sorts of other bad things (lava, pits, etc.), why not off the map when able to do so?

Nope. In order to flee an encounter you have to choose to spend 1 MP while standing in the exit. So if you use Knockback to stick a hero/Lt there they can just choose to move back instead of fleeing.

Hmm, you are correct, fleeing an encounter in RtL can only be accomplished this way. I suppose what had me confused was reading the SoB rulebook which simply reads that any hero "moving off the edge of the map" was considered to have fled, and LTs fled in the same manner. But I think that's more just ambiguous rules writing than a rule change in SoB, something like that would've warranted more attention, so I'm sure you're right. Thanks for the response!

I don't have SoB, but I think it has to do with the fact that SoB encounters use the big ass play map where you can flee in any direction. Dunno why you don't have to pay MP to flee though. That's weird.

I think you are wrong here, fleeing the map is just like moving one space in water wihout any restriction, is just you cannot come back if you left the map.

I don't see anywhere that it's your choice to leave, it is a valid space for the knockback, if you're foolish enough to stay close to the edge then you may be pushed out.

So do you think this is then a change from the RtL rules? Because those state you clearly must CHOOOSE to leave the exit space.

Slapul said:

I don't agree. In RtL they made it clear you can't force an enemy out of the encounter. Why they did not spell it out on SoB I don't know. If you want to play by the RAW in SoB go for it. I'm ruling it was a typo in my game, one of the many times where playing by the RAW ruins what I feel was the designers intent.

Kartigan said:

You can not use Knockback to throw a Lt off the exit part of the map in either RtL or SoB.

Knockback
If an attack by a monster or weapon with Knockback inflicts at least one damage (before applying armor), the attacker may immediately move each affected target figure up to three spaces away from its current location. This is reduced by one space of movement for each space the target occupies beyond the first. The figures must be moved to spaces that do not contain other figures or obstacles that block movement. The figure does not actually move through the intervening spaces. As such, Knockback movement is not blocked by intervening figures or obstacles (though a figure cannot be moved through a closed door or wall).

You have to move them up to 3 legal spaces . Spaces off the edge of the map are not considered to be legal spaces .

water is in normal circumstances not a legal space either

Turric4n said:

But it is still an actual space on the map in the case land based outdoor encounters, just not a legal one. Off the board does not count as a legal space by any stretch of the imagination. The only time off map areas are referred to as spaces is for Reinforcements, and even then all it says is that they are considered to have started one space off the map to make them spend a movement point to come in.

i am just saying that you cant add words into existing rules to prove a point.. even if it is true

Turric4n said:

If you think it's true then why play Devil's Advocate?

A legal space is a space you could normaly end movement, so in this case the outer map it could be considered one.

I think this was a case of mistaken editing. The person who wrote the rule has probably never even played Descent, so for them one way of saying it is just as valid as another. We get a lot of these situations in the Descent rules. Judging by the amount of problems this can cause, my personal interpretation is this.

I think most of us will agree that the spaces outside the board are not considered legal spaces for movement in normal circumstances. Therefore I think the intent of the SoB fleeing rule was the same as the RtL one. You move to the edge of the map, then spend another 1 MP to flee. I do not think it was intended to allow figures to move to a space off the board, voluntarily or involuntarily.

To a non Descent player I'm sure there is no difference between moving off the board and spending 1 MP. But in the context of the rules it can make a huge difference. You're welcome to play it how you want. Though letting figures be forced to flee will definitely change the balance of the game.

if you have to spend 1 MP to move out of the board it would logically follow to the conclusion that fleeing is a movement action, right?

ProtoPersona said:

That's where the rub is, RtL rules state that figures can "spend 1 MP while on an exit space to flee the board". SoB rules state that "figures moving off of the edge of the map are considered to have fled". I think this is just a case of sloppily written rules (what?!? in this game?!?!? You're kidding.....), I don't think it was the designer's intention to allow Knockback to force other figures to flee, and my group is going to play that it isn't.

Big Remy covered this already. Knockback requires you to land the recipient in a legal space. Regardless of the way movement on or off the map is written, off the map does not have any 'spaces' legal or otherwise, to land in, so you can't knockback a figure off the map.
Slapul is dead wrong. Just because you can move to the outer map, does not make the outer map a legal space. It is just somewhere you can go, much like town in a dungeon (also not a legal space).
So all the other conjecturing is basically pointless at least for the purpoes of this thread (ok, sometimes its fun conjecturing, so not entirely pointless even though the question has been definitively answered!)

BTW, Turric's random objection about water was wrong too, since water at sea is a different thing to water in a dungeon and explicitly is a legal space that you can move onto - there are rules for doing so, even if they are very hard on well armoured heroes!)

well i meant http://www.descentinthedark.com/_w_/water.php

anyway. as i questioned.. is fleeing a movement action? if so apes cant flee.

Turric4n said:

It's not listed as a movement action, so you can argue it either way.

I'd love to know why Apes can't flee. You know Leap is an optional move for them right?

Corbon said:

You are right. Conjecture or not though, the rules do leave enough wiggle room for "industrious" players to find a loophole. I wanted to put in my vote for what I thought the intent was. Seems I'm not alone in thinking that way.

sorry i meant into monkey transformed heroes. wasnt thinking of actuall ape monsters while posting.

its not listed under movement actions because the rulebook is older than rtl (for one reason). the other reason might be the fact that it is no movement action. however then it should be able to knock people off the board if its just a movement.

personally i think it should not be possible to throw figures out with knockback.

Turric4n said:

Then please don't confuse the OP by supporting a baseless argument that it is. It doesn't matter if fleeing is a movement action or not a movement action, you can not knock someone off the board because there is no legal space to place their figure in.

In SoB, ships can push figures off the map, indicating that fleeing is not always voluntary. But of course this has nothing to do with a Knockback attack.

Parathion said:

Yeah, that at least is spelled out.