Sahla vs CCRG 1.8

By siegelord, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

I can't find why the CCRG says Sahla can't use exhausted cards. Using Dungeoneer should be allowed after it is exhausted, no?
Wording:
Exhaust this card to perform a search action. While this card is exhausted, you may perform 1 attack during your turn without using an action.

Moreover, it seems peculiar that they are explicitly not allowing the card to be refreshed even though refreshing cards is after "Start of Turn Effects".

This entry in the CRRG is based on the following uFAQ.

Question:
2.11.2. Can Sahla use his hero ability several times in one turn? And is "Then, choose 1 figure within 3 spaces of you to gain that condition." step obligatory? Also does his heroic feat allow to use already exhausted skill cards of another hero (can I consider that it gives him a virtual skill card copy of another hero's card?)?

Answer by Kara:
No, Sahla can only use his ability once at the start of his turn. Yes, the “Then, choose 1 figure within 3 spaces of you to gain that condition” is obligatory. “A player cannot use an exhausted card until it is refreshed” (p 8, Rules of Play) so no, Sahla could not use an exhausted hero skill.

Other uFAQs confirmed that Sahla does not get a virtual copy of the chosen Skill card. Thus, if an exhausted Skill card is chosen it does not refresh in step 1.II. of Sahla's turn.

Edited by Sadgit

Is taking the free attack from Dungeoneer the same as "using" the card though? Or can Sahla only "use" cards, not gain passive abilities from cards?

I suppose that makes sense because otherwise you're basically letting two separate players independently gain the same free Dungeoneer attack in the same round. Eating the same apple twice.

I think Dungeoneer in combination with Sahla Heroic feat works like this:

1. Dungeoneer is not exhausted
Sahla may choose to exhaust it and gain all benefits including the free attack. He was the one exhausting the card, therefore the "you may perform" on the card is referring to him.

2. Dungeoneer was exhausted in another hero's turn

Sahla cannot make use of the free attack, as he is not the "you" in "you may perform the attack", it is the hero that exhausted the card.

Edited by Sadgit

That does raise a question with cards that are entirely passive and don't require exhaustion (e.g., Spiritspeaker "Nature's Bounty").

Sahla's just weird.

1 hour ago, 10355ts said:

That does raise a question with cards that are entirely passive and don't require exhaustion (e.g., Spiritspeaker " Nature's Bounty ").

Why? Can you elaborate?

Quote

Sahla 's just weird.

I agree.

What Sadgit is trying to say is the free attack is not a condition of Dungeoneering being exhausted, it's linked to the act of exhausting the card. Usually when the abilities are not linked there is a line break left between them to separate them.

1 hour ago, Sadgit said:

Why? Can you elaborate?

The text of "Nature's Bounty" reads:

Quote
Each time you recover Fatigue by resting, you also recover Heart equal to the amount of Fatigue recovered.

There's no exhaustion to give us a referent for the "you", so it could mean only the character owning the card, or it could mean Sahla, or it could even mean both of them. Since the trigger is a rest action (which either or both characters could take), rather than exhaustion of the card, theoretically, you could have two separate characters use the same "Nature's Bounty" card to heal in a single round. The spiritspeaker takes a rest action, then Sahla uses his ability and takes a rest action.

I think part of the question I'm wrestling with is what Sahla's ability says when it lets him "use" other player's cards. Does that mean "exhaust and / or take actions" or does it mean "gain the benefits of" or what?

If it means "gain the benefits of" then I would think that passive abilities that happen while a card is exhausted could be read to also apply to Sahla, just like other passive abilities that don't require exhaustion. If it means "exhaust and / or take actions as listed" then I'd argue Sahla can't "use" purely passive cards.

Edited by 10355ts
24 minutes ago, Proto Persona said:

What Sadgit is trying to say is the free attack is not a condition of Dungeoneering being exhausted, it's linked to the act of exhausting the card. Usually when the abilities are not linked there is a line break left between them to separate them.

Ok, that seems like a really subtle distinction to draw. What about, say, Inner Balance then? I don't have a copy in front of me but going by the wiki it looks like that's two different lines -- one stating a trigger and an effect (exhaustion, may discard) and another stating a global passive benefit [" While this card is exhausted, apply +1 to your Awareness , Might , Willpower and Knowledge (to a maximum of 6 each)]" . If Sahla "used" Inner Balance, while it was already exhausted, then, he wouldn't get the "discard a condition" benefit, but would get the passive stat bonuses?

I agree that Nature's Bounty can be used twice in a round using Sahla's Heroic feat.

Quote

If it means "gain the benefits of" then I would think that passive abilities that happen while a card is exhausted could be read to also apply to Sahla , just like other passive abilities that don't require exhaustion. If it means "exhaust and / or take actions as listed" then I'd argue Sahla can't "use" purely passive cards.

These are good questions and I cannot give a definite answer.

We know from an uFAQ that Sahla can actually benefit from passive abilities on chosen Skill cards such as Iron Will which would increase Sahla's stamina by 1 until the end of her turn. However, I could only speculate about the effect of an exhausted Inner Balance.

Time to put a support question to FFG. Maybe post a draft here first, to let the community close any loopholes and get a definite answer from FFG how to deal with Sahla's feat in this respect.

Edited by Sadgit