1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

Kachiko might be too expensive as a conflict character and can potentially just clog your hand as you spend fate on various dynasty characters.

I disagree. If you have her you simply have another option. It's no different really than if she was a Dynasty character. You pass early saving 5 - 7 fate for her. This doesn't cost you any more than if she were in a dynasty. In fact she is better protected than if she was in a province. If she lands face up in a broken province you Must play her that turn or lose her. In your hand you have more agency over when to save and bring her in.

Additionally that turn you are much more likely to pass first thus getting the extra fate.

Sure there are issues with her being in your Conflict deck, like what the **** do you drop from your 40 cards to fit her in? But overall I feel like for Scorpion conflict characters are in a stronger place than dynasty when if comes to getting them into play.

It's honestly kind of baffling to me that the discussion on Kachiko is "are we sure she's good" as opposed to "Is she clearly the best Scorpion character or is Hiroue still in the discussion"

1 hour ago, Krashwire said:

I disagree. If you have her you simply have another option. It's no different really than if she was a Dynasty character. You pass early saving 5 - 7 fate for her. This doesn't cost you any more than if she were in a dynasty. In fact she is better protected than if she was in a province. If she lands face up in a broken province you Must play her that turn or lose her. In your hand you have more agency over when to save and bring her in.

Additionally that turn you are much more likely to pass first thus getting the extra fate.

Sure there are issues with her being in your Conflict deck, like what the **** do you drop from your 40 cards to fit her in? But overall I feel like for Scorpion conflict characters are in a stronger place than dynasty when if comes to getting them into play.

No, she does cost you a card. She essentially competes with your other conflict cards. That's very different than the dynasty characters and their relationship between themselves and holdings.

The only potential similarity might be the option to "hold" a character, as you can for either conflict or dynasty cards. The difference is the potential for seeing far more conflict cards in a typical game than dynasty. This doesn't count on how vital it can be to draw certain conflict cards.

As for dynasty characters, I'd completely disagree when we talk about some of them (the liar or manipulator).

On 11/17/2017 at 1:19 PM, AradonTemplar said:

Are the seals any good, though? Spending a card to give a trait for the combos seems bad compared to just getting the +2 from fan/katana. I suppose you can run both.

I'm going to wager that generally all of the seals are going to suck, however there is the edge case where a card comes out that makes that trait very valuable and suddenly the card is good in combo. On its own, they are all pretty worthless.

3 hours ago, Kubernes said:

Kachiko might be too expensive as a conflict character and can potentially just clog your hand as you spend fate on various dynasty characters.

Pass first. Now is that scorpion holding kachico, fate worse than death, or every other expensive scorp conflict card. I believe she validates 3 or 4 cost eventd

Dragon seal could be actually useful for untapping non-monks with Ascetic until we get a reliable amount of Monk attachments. That being said, High Kick relies on the character having Monk so a Agasha swordsmith with seal can give people a boot to the head.

Monk appears to be the most useful of the traits that the Seals give. I was kind of expecting Tattooed once I heard that the Crab had Berserker .

SEAL OF THE CRAB is not bad as you can remove EAGER SCOUT and use seals on KEEPER INITIATE to fuel WAY OF THE CRAB for better recursion use. Also I see crab as possibly utilizing the Imperial keyword occasionally, so it would help to keep all your neutrals as WAY OF THE CRAB fodder and set up some really nice CRISIS BERSERKER synergy.

On 11/18/2017 at 9:14 PM, kiramode said:

It's honestly kind of baffling to me that the discussion on Kachiko is "are we sure she's good" as opposed to "Is she clearly the best Scorpion character or is Hiroue still in the discussion"

Dunno. I don't think they're really comparable to be honest. Her being a conflict character changes an awful lot about her. Primarily, the chances of her being seen and actually played in a game, also there is a hard upper limit on conflict characters.

And then there is the Glory Nerf they just keep slapping onto Scorpions and in her case its particularly brutal.

Also, people are already playing with Goblin Sneak a lot, and you can seriously stab yourself in the face trying to force yourself to make Kachiko work. Or find yourself looking at a bomb when what you want is a scalpel.

I just really don't like her, but I'm gonna get her anyway so ill keep an open mind.

you can go for the auto pass and get no one out if you have her in hand already but would need someone else already present to support..

I'm kinda worried about Kachiko being a complete coaster...

We only get 10 conflict characters. My decks tend to already max this out, and if they don't its because I needed the actions more than the characters. Being a conflict character you can't just compare with other characters, you have to compete with Banzai, Court Games, Way of the Scorpion, Fine Katana, Ornate Fan, ect... A lot of cheap power comes from the conflict deck, and she is not cheap. I pass on a lot of strong conflict cards because they aren't also cheap. Kachiko is strong, but not cheap.

3 Glory Courtier in Scorpion - means her Courtier tag is all but worthless. You will lose 3 MIL / POL if you use her for Forged Edict, Calling in Favors, or Spies at Court, and she becomes a big target for Ring of Fire, Shameful Display, For Shame, or any of the other dishonoring abilities... This is a big target for a Scorpion character to have. You can't have Yojiro with you all the time either. IMO she is the one who should have had Yojiro's ability. It makes sense for her since everyone knows she plays at being a ***** but is still highly respected.

If she were a dynasty character she would definitely make the cut, because she only competes against characters and her ability is strong. Right now I don't see her making the cut in my deck. Using 3x Meek Informant, 2x Adept of Shadows, and then often 3x Seeker of Knowledge I just don't have the room.

32 minutes ago, Soshi Nimue said:

I just don't have the room.

Good point.

At this point in the game, the Dynasty deck is by far the easiest to change. Conflict is much more scrutinized and precious.
Later, once we get more cards, it'll seem normal to be in this predicament.

People are looking at her the wrong way. You don't cut guys to make room for her, your deck starts with her and build from there. Conflict characters(particularly ones 3 cost or bigger) are dramatically better than dynasty characters because you can choose when to play them. People should really be doomsaying this card.

4 minutes ago, kiramode said:

People are looking at her the wrong way. You don't cut guys to make room for her, your deck starts with her and build from there. Conflict characters(particularly ones 3 cost or bigger) are dramatically better than dynasty characters because you can choose when to play them. People should really be doomsaying this card.

What really hurts that is the 10 conflict character limit. If that didn't exist then building around the conflict deck would be much easier. Perhaps we get a stronghold in the future that ups that limit?

7 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

What really hurts that is the 10 conflict character limit. If that didn't exist then building around the conflict deck would be much easier. Perhaps we get a stronghold in the future that ups that limit?

Dropbears is already it's own decktype that simply requires a different style of play than typical decks. As most decks get refined they tend to cut expensive cards in favor of 0 cost cards. But dropbear decks will end up going the other way and just get bigger better dudes.

3 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

A good post that you should read.

I agree.

At first I was like "OK, Scorpion could field a conflict heavyweight deck with all these conflict characters we're getting with the right combination of cheap bodies in the Dynasty and heavy holdings..."

And then I was like "10 character limit."

Like you say, the conflict deck is often a ready source of cheap power, and she's very pricey. An expensive conflict deck can present a load of problems.

2 hours ago, kiramode said:

Dropbears is already it's own decktype that simply requires a different style of play than typical decks. As most decks get refined they tend to cut expensive cards in favor of 0 cost cards. But dropbear decks will end up going the other way and just get bigger better dudes.

Bigger doesn't mean better in this game. They still only get 1 fight. Also, dropbears likes the fact that they play 3 cost guys, with *covert*. Granted she doesn't need covert cause she can just bounce a defender, but still. 2 of, at absolute most. Nothing spectacular at all, and certainly not a build around imo. Not nearly impacting enough. A fate worse than Death would probably work out as a better build around card.

I've got to disagree with a lot of arguments against her.

Dynasty character vs Conflict character - this makes no practical difference. Playing a Conflict character is only a disadvantage if the character is worse than a Dynasty character (e.g. low stats to cost). Otherwise being able to Ambush them in is pure benefit. You're not 'down a character' or anything; you just get to play your character at the most beneficial time.

She's expensive for a Conflict card - again, this makes no practical difference because you didn't buy a character (granted, this means she's probably dead the turn you draw her, unless you're playing some kind of low dynasty/high conflict cost deck). She's not competing with your 'left over' fate, she's competing with your other characters.

She's a courtier but doesn't like dishonour/high glory - How often are you using Forged Edict with Shojo? Because that's the comparison you're making. Just because she's a Conflict character doesn't mean she's a disposable chump. And yeah, she has high glory - it's balance. As a counter point, she's also much more able to dodge dishonour due to her being a Conflict character (e.g. you can scout/try to draw out Shameful Display before putting her in, she's potentially not around if the opponent Fire Rings before you play her etc).

10 Conflict character limit - okay, this one's actually somewhat reasonable. But realistically, what are you playing? Because if you're playing stuff like Goblin Sneak, you're probably not playing the kind of deck she wants to be in. I don't think you necessarily want to build around her, but you want to play her in the right kind of deck. Something that wants to break provinces like the 'Dropbears' deck, I think she absolutely fits in conceptually. Something like a dedicated dishonour deck, probably not, because she's not really advancing your primary win condition that much (though she can probably force unopposed in a lot of cases).

Do I think she fits in every deck? No. But she's certainly viable. The other big thing is that I get the impression people feel like they have to be running her 3x copies, which I think is wrong in most cases. I'd run her one or two, and she'll probably turn up at the right time often enough to be worth it without completely destroying your Conflict deck.

3 minutes ago, Abyss said:

I've got to disagree with a lot of arguments against her.

Dynasty character vs Conflict character - this makes no practical difference. Playing a Conflict character is only a disadvantage if the character is worse than a Dynasty character (e.g. low stats to cost). Otherwise being able to Ambush them in is pure benefit. You're not 'down a character' or anything; you just get to play your character at the most beneficial time.

She's expensive for a Conflict card - again, this makes no practical difference because you didn't buy a character (granted, this means she's probably dead the turn you draw her, unless you're playing some kind of low dynasty/high conflict cost deck). She's not competing with your 'left over' fate, she's competing with your other characters.

It does make a difference though. When I start the game I get 4 dynasty cards and 4 conflict cards in hand. If I'm forgoing my dynasty characters to play a character from my hand, I may be able to pass quick to nip that 1 fate but I'm down a card in hand having to play characters from there instead... Considering a single Conflict card can provide 2-4 stats for FREE is that 1 fate worth it?

"You can play them when it is most beneficial." well... I think you've got to play something, and you only get 10 conflict characters, so while I get to choose when to play them - is this choice valuable? Is it a false choice since I only get 10 cards that can be played, which probably means 3/3/2/2 split and only 1/4 of the deck can be characters, so while I could reliably have 1-2 to start the game... is this choice enough to actually win something over against my opponent?

I appreciate the option select - but what is the other option? If you must still play a character anyway I don't see the advantages. I'm happy to revisit this as the card pool expands, but Kachiko is not the card that makes this good... I feel the argument "she costs 1 less because you can pass first" is negated by the fact that you sacrifice hand advantage playing her from your hand instead of a province...

3 minutes ago, Abyss said:

She's a courtier but doesn't like dishonour/high glory - How often are you using Forged Edict with Shojo? Because that's the comparison you're making. Just because she's a Conflict character doesn't mean she's a disposable chump. And yeah, she has high glory - it's balance. As a counter point, she's also much more able to dodge dishonour due to her being a Conflict character (e.g. you can scout/try to draw out Shameful Display before putting her in, she's potentially not around if the opponent Fire Rings before you play her etc).

Yes I have used it with Shoju - even dishonored Shoju is naturally a 5 POL with an ability that can drop opposition 2 POL. That's effectively 7 POL even dishonored. Even if it is a close fight - 1 action for 2 stats against Shoju is good, but not that good. Kachiko suffers 3 points in stats being dishonored, and her ability is suddenly a lot less effective being able to target only 2 POL characters... She loses a LOT being dishonored. Shoju? not so much.

There is another issue with dropping a conflict character in that you sacrifice your action to play a character. If you play Kachiko into a conflict she could be targeted by For Shame before you have a chance to even use her... If you pay her in only to get hit by a For Shame you've got to dishonor her meaning you've paid 5 for 3 POL, and you can send a 2 POL character home, or you paid 5 to send 1 character home bowed... That's a bit better than outwit, but is it worth the 4 higher cost?

3 minutes ago, Abyss said:

10 Conflict character limit - okay, this one's actually somewhat reasonable. But realistically, what are you playing? Because if you're playing stuff like Goblin Sneak, you're probably not playing the kind of deck she wants to be in. I don't think you necessarily want to build around her, but you want to play her in the right kind of deck. Something that wants to break provinces like the 'Dropbears' deck, I think she absolutely fits in conceptually. Something like a dedicated dishonour deck, probably not, because she's not really advancing your primary win condition that much (though she can probably force unopposed in a lot of cases).

Goblin Sneak is a pretty universal answer to Display of Power. I don't think including it says much about the deck that is using it, except that maybe they don't have access to Event Cancelling, or their experience includes a lot of turn 1 DoP. Whether you're wanting to dishonor your opponent, or break their stronghold you still have to deal with the meta everyone else is running.

Would you dishonor Kachiko to cancel DoP for Ring of Fire against Phoenix with ready Tsukune and 2 fate on her?

3 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Do I think she fits in every deck? No. But she's certainly viable. The other big thing is that I get the impression people feel like they have to be running her 3x copies, which I think is wrong in most cases. I'd run her one or two, and she'll probably turn up at the right time often enough to be worth it without completely destroying your Conflict deck.

She certainly doesn't fit in every deck - and I wonder if she wouldn't be more at home in a Crane deck where 3 Glory is more of an advantage than a detriment... Sure she is immune to Way of the Scorpion so she can't be force-dishonored, but I'd hate to make the choice to bow or dishonor her right after playing her...

1 hour ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Bigger doesn't mean better in this game. They still only get 1 fight.......

I'm not going to get into some sort of "size matters" argument that ends up being really awkward, but, I wondering what you mean by "They still only get 1 fight"?

Some of the arguments on here make it sound like you're not going to put fate on Kachiko, too. To me she seems excellent in conjunction with Favorable Grounds. Since you have so many conflict characters, you're fine running more holdings in the dynasty deck. Play Kachiko into the conflict, use her to send a large player home, then take her home yourself for your political attack. That's an ideal scenario, but even in the scenario where someone plays For Shame on her, she just bows, and sends their guy home. They used a card to negate your character, but that would have happened to any expensive character. She still gets her ability, and you're still able to use her next turn too.

Honestly, if you're worried about her being dishonored, run her with Rumormonger or the Illusionist. It's not like Scorpion's not able to handle status tokens. She's a beast. It's just a question of if you want to run 2 sets of 5-costers between her and Shoju, especially considering how much fate the Adept of Shadows can eat up as well. I think she at least merits a 1-of inclusion just to set your opponent on edge any time you save 6+ fate in your pool.

Or even play her with the new Scorpion magistrate who makes you ignore status tokens during the conflict.

2 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Or even play her with the new Scorpion magistrate who makes you ignore status tokens during the conflict.

So pay 5 for a 3/6 character and put it with a 3 cost 3/1 character... It doesn't matter that we ignore status tokens, that play just gave them the advantage that dishonor would have by dumping our own stat efficiency...

Did I mention I'm a bit disappointed with Yojiro being a 3/1?

2 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

Some of the arguments on here make it sound like you're not going to put fate on Kachiko, too. To me she seems excellent in conjunction with Favorable Grounds. Since you have so many conflict characters, you're fine running more holdings in the dynasty deck. Play Kachiko into the conflict, use her to send a large player home, then take her home yourself for your political attack. That's an ideal scenario, but even in the scenario where someone plays For Shame on her, she just bows, and sends their guy home. They used a card to negate your character, but that would have happened to any expensive character. She still gets her ability, and you're still able to use her next turn too.

Honestly, if you're worried about her being dishonored, run her with Rumormonger or the Illusionist. It's not like Scorpion's not able to handle status tokens. She's a beast. It's just a question of if you want to run 2 sets of 5-costers between her and Shoju, especially considering how much fate the Adept of Shadows can eat up as well. I think she at least merits a 1-of inclusion just to set your opponent on edge any time you save 6+ fate in your pool.

I think people should be looking less at the ideal situation, and more at the typical situation with her. The biggest problem when playing her during a conflict is that window you give your opponent to respond to her before she can use that ability. Going through the world's decks, there's a lot of stuff that does away with Kachiko in a conflict and usually with a low cost.

I was thinking that I'd be looking forward to a holding heavy Crab deck that used conflict deck heavy hitters... and then I remembered the 10 conflict character deck limit. Whan-Whan-wah

1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

I think people should be looking less at the ideal situation, and more at the typical situation with her. The biggest problem when playing her during a conflict is that window you give your opponent to respond to her before she can use that ability. Going through the world's decks, there's a lot of stuff that does away with Kachiko in a conflict and usually with a low cost.

Such as? I can't think of anything that can do that consistently.