Right...

...I posted a while ago (on a different threat about psykers) that I was pondering how to carry across some of the ideas from the original DH psychic rules into the current system, and I mentioned that older system again in this thread...

I've got a few moments to spare, so I'm going to elaborate further on those original ideas, in some cases translating them across and in others writing my own parts to fill in sections of those rules not completed within those early drafts.

A moment's warning first: I make no claims as to how good, appropriate, or balanced these rules are. They're certainly not complete in any way, shape or form, and require a lot of work before they're in a truly usable state. Comments should bear this in mind. Please pay particular attention to my comments, marked in [square brackets and italics] and dotted through the text below.

Psychic Potential

A psyker character will have one of six ratings, determining his raw psychic potential. This determines both the amount of power the psyker is capable of directing, as well as controlling a number of quantitative effects that his powers will produce - a more powerful telekine can lift greater masses, a more powerful telepath can broadcast over wider areas, and so forth.

Psychic Potential, or Psy Rating, is determined randomly, using the following table:

01-51: Zeta Grade (Psy Rating 1)

52-76: Episilon Grade (Psy Rating 2)

77-89: Delta Grade (Psy Rating 3)

90-95: Gamma Grade (Psy Rating 4)

96-98: Beta Grade (Psy Rating 5)

99-00: Alpha Grade (Psy Rating 6)

Characters can increase their psy rating to a degree, but for the most part, this roll determines their raw potential.

[Note: The table is very rough, based on the vague idea that each grade is half as common as the one preceeding it. The naming of the psy ratings comes from the original document.]

Using Psychic Powers

[this is based heavily on the original draft rules, but includes a few adaptations of my own]

Every psychic power has two values associated with its use - Difficulty, and Threshold. The former determines how complex the power is to manifest, while the latter determines how much power is needed to make the power happen.

When attempting to manifest a psychic power, you need to make a Power Roll. This is a number of d10s equal to your Willpower Bonus - though you can choose to roll fewer if you wish, you must roll at least one. Your Psy Rating also plays a part, granting you a number of bonus d10s equal to the rating's number - so a Delta Grade psyker gains 3 bonus d10 for his Power Rolls.

Once you have chosen the power you want to manifest, roll your pool of d10s. For every die that rolls equal to or higher than the Difficulty, you have scored a single success. If you score a number of successes equal to the power's Threshold, then the power has been successfully manifested. Successes beyond the Threshold can, in some cases, be spent on additional effects. Most of these will be unique to the power in question, but one - finesse - is described later.

[Yes, it's very similar to White Wolf's storyteller system. So were the original DH rules. The ability to distinguish between a complex power and one simply requiring a lot of "oomph" is, however, a valid and useful one.]

For Example: Silas Vorn, a rogue pyro-witch of Epsilon grade, is being pursued by a League of Blackships capture-squad, and needs to thin out their numbers before they reach him. He summons up the inferno within his mind and unleashes a roiling bolt of unnatural flame at the nearest trooper. With his Willpower Bonus of 4, and a Psy Rating of 2, he rolls 6 dice. The power has a Threshold of 2, and a difficulty of 4 - a relatively simple power to manifest. Rolling 1, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, he's scored 3 successes - enough to manifest the power successfully, and the bolt of flame leaps away to strike his adversary.

However, control is important, especially with the most difficult of powers, and can allow a skilled, determined psyker to match or best a psyker of greater raw power. For every die conferred by the psyker's Willpower Bonus that he doesn't roll, he may add a bonus equal to his Willpower Bonus to any one other dice, increasing it's chance of beating the Difficulty value. No die may gain this bonus more than once, however.

The Effects of Corruption

The Power Dice described above are not the only dice rolled when manifesting a psychic power. When attempting a Power Roll, you roll an additional d10 that has nothing to do with the success or failure of the attempt, called a Corruption Die. This die should be clearly different from the ones contributing towards the power roll. If it rolls the same number as any of the Power Dice, then the psyker immediately gains a number of corruption points equal to the number of Power Dice being used on the Power Roll - the greater the power accessed, the greater the risk of corruption. Sufficiently well-trained psykers can eventually remove the Corruption Die from the Power Rolls used to manifest certain powers, or even certain disciplines, but it can be a long and arduous process to reach such a level of skill.

Psychic Phenomena

The effects of the warp upon reality are unpredictable, and drawing upon the warp for power gives that unpredictable energy a way into reality. Knowingly or not, some of that energy gets loose during the manifestation of a power, creating strange and unnatural effects that make it clear to all nearby that a psyker is about. A skilled psyker can minimise this 'waste' energy, allowing his nature to go largely unnoticed.

Whenever a psyker uses a psychic power, roll on Table @@: Psychic Phenomena [for the moment, use the table in the DH rulebook, re-rolling any results of 75+]. This may be avoided, if the psyker chooses to spend a single surplus success on suppressing this side-effect - this is known as Finesse, or "spending a success on finesse". Some powers do not allow a psyker to spend a success on finesse, however.

Perils of the Warp

A failure to control the energies drawn from the Immaterium can be catastrophic. If the number of failures on a Power Roll are equal to or greater than the Psyker's Willpower Bonus, or if no successes were scored at all, then the character must attempt a Willpower Test, with a penalty equal to ten times the power's Threshold. If this is failed, then consult Table @@: Perils of the Warp and use the amount by which the test was failed to determine the consequences of this failure. [for the moment, use the table in the DH rulebook, replacing the d100 roll with the amount by which the Perils of the Warp test was failed].

Sustaining Powers

There are a number of psychic abilities that are worth “keeping on” for an extended length of time. Abilities that can be used in such manner are referred to as being “sustainable” which is noted in their entries. A psyker can sustain a single psychic ability without effort once properly activated; however, all Power Rolls that the psyker makes while sustaining a single psychic power are at a –1 Penalty. A psyker can sustain multiple abilities, but all Power Rolls to invoke other psychic abilities will get progressively more difficult. A psyker sustaining 2 abilities is at a –3 Penalty on all Tests and a psyker sustaining 3 abilities is at a –5 Penalty. No human psyker can sustain 4 abilities at once without losing their mind to the warp.

The Corrupt Will to Power

Once a psyker’s basic power grade has been established it is unlikely to change. Extremely driven individuals (like many Acolytes) will often train long and hard enough to one day manifest their abilities as the next grade. A single Psyker Grade Talent upgrade can be acquired [the details of this would require a reworking of the career path to accomodate this extensive reworking of the system]. For some psykers though, this will never be enough. An Epsilon Grade psyker may look with envy at what a Gamma Grade psyker can achieve and quietly vow to do whatever it takes to also achieve that level of ability, no matter the cost…

Psykers that have been exposed to “extreme” warp phenomena, including direct exposure to the Immaterium, daemonic possession, and debilitating attacks by more powerful psykers may one day realize that there is a way to grow more powerful: by accepting the corruption of the warp. Not all of them rationalize it to themselves that way, but in the end, the results are all the same – seeking psychic power beyond one’s “birthright” results in warp corruption.

Under the right circumstances, a psyker can “buy” a second (or more!) Psyker Grade Talent upgrade. “Unnaturally” acquired upgrades cost 500 xp and the psyker immediately acquires a number of Corruption points equal to five times the Psy Rating number.

Psychic Powers

[only Pyromancy so far, and the powers don't have quite the scalability-by-success that I want, but they're a decent enough start. I picked Pyromancy because it was the only discipline complete in the original draft rules, so I had something to work from here, though I've changed a few things. Note the regular use of a character's Psy Rating to determine the size or intensity of effects - this is part of the reason why the higher psy ratings are so rare - their powers are that much more potent.]

Fire Bolt
Threshold: 2
Difficulty: 4
Sustain: No
Description: The single most common ability used by pyrokinetics, Fire Bolt allows a psyker to create balls of flame and hurl them at his foes with his mind. The colours and appearance of the flames are unique to the psyker that forms them, ranging widely from searing white light to green-black spheres of obscenity mouthing faces. A Fire Bolt has a Damage value of 1d10 plus Psy Rating of the psyker that generated it (dealing energy damage) and a range of 48 metres. For every success beyond Threshold, a psyker can increase the damage by +1, or add +2 to the Pen value. For every three successes beyond the Threshold, a psyker can add +1d10 to the damage.

Burning Fist
Threshold: 2
Difficulty: 5
Sustain: Yes
Description: A pyrokinetic can, with concentration, wreath his hands in waves of shimmering flames. When using Burning Fist, all of pyrokinetics unarmed Hand-to-Hand attacks have a Damage of 1d10+SB+Psy Rating, and deal Energy damage. Anything flammable that the psyker touches (excluding his own immediate gear) is likely to be set on fire by the psychic blaze.

Blinding Flash
Threshold: 3
Difficulty: 4
Sustain: No
Description: The pyrokinetic focuses blazing mental energy into a single point within her mind, before releasing it all in a burst of searing bright light, blinding anyone who has gazing at her. Blinding Flash affects all targets within 12 metres of the psyker, friend and foe alike. Those with appropriate glare shielding and beings that don’t have visual sensory organs are immune. All those affected are blinded for 1d10 times the psyker's Psy Rating in rounds. Blinded targets automatically fail vision-based tests, move at half normal speed and take a -20 penalty on any test that involves fighting, movement or reactions.

Sculpt Flame
Threshold: 4
Difficulty: 6
Sustain: Yes
Description: Stretching forth his will, the pyrokinetic controls the shape of the fires about him. Psykers typically use this ability to direct the flames to a specific effect, such as concentrating a fire on a building’s support beams so as to make it collapse faster. A theatrical psyker with some artistic talent can use this ability to create magnificent figures made of writhing fire or cause flames to leap up as he enters a room. Sculpt Flame does not create any fire; it merely allows a pyrokinetic to shape that, which is already there. The psyker’s range of control is equal to his Psy Rating in 5-metre increments. Each success beyond Threshold allows the psyker more precision. For example, with 1 extra success, the psyker can direct the flames into recognizable shapes, with 2 or 3 extra successes the psyker can craft easily recognizable images, and with 4 or more successes beyond Threshold, the psyker can make near life-like appearing figures, though clearly carved from flame. Battlefield pyrokinetics will use a maintained Sculpt Flame in order to direct some of their other abilities to devastating effect, e.g. by directing their Fire Bolts around an opponent’s armour, adding twice the number of successes beyond Threshold to the power's Pen value.

Wall of Fire
Threshold: 4
Difficulty: 5
Sustain: Yes
Description: A relative blunt but effective ability in the pyrokinetic’s arsenal, this power allows a psyker to erect an immobile barrier of flame that will linger for as long as the psyker wills it. A Wall of Fire can be up to 10 metres long for every point of Psy Rating a psyker has. Foes crossing the Wall immediately suffer 1d10+5 Energy Damage (ignoring armour) and must Test Agility or catch on fire.

Douse Flames
Threshold: 4
Difficulty: 6
Sustain: Yes
Description: Even the weakest of pyrokinetics have the power to produce and direct fire, but it takes a potent mind to deny the natural tendency of flames to run out of control by stopping them with this ability. Douse Flames allows a psyker to extinguish all fires within a number of 5-metre increments equal to his Psy Rating. Fires eliminated by a successful use of Douse Flames are instantly quenched, like a candle being suddenly blown out. A psyker using Douse Flames can stop flamer-style weapons from functioning by concentrating on them, though their fuel may still spray forth depending on the design of the weapon. Note that chemically flammable substances, such as promethium, that burn continuously once exposed to the air will burst back into flame the moment the psyker stops concentrating on them or they pass beyond the range of his control.

Fire Storm
Threshold: 6
Difficulty: 5
Sustain: No
Description: While a lesser psyker is limited to merely throwing fire at his foes, the greater eventually discover that they can simply call the fire into existence all about their enemies. Fire Storm instantly creates an intense conflagration about the psyker’s target as the air itself ignites, burning all within to cinders. The psyker can call a Fire Storm anywhere within 48 metres; the Fire Storm itself has a 6-metre radius from the point (or individual) where it was targeted. The Fire Storm deals 1d10+Psy Rating Energy damage to everything within the radius. For every success beyond Threshold, a psyker can increase the damage by +1, or add +2 to the Pen value. For every three successes beyond the Threshold, a psyker can add +1d10 to the damage.

Incinerate
Threshold: 4
Difficulty 7
Sustain: Yes
Description: An ability requiring sharp concentration, Incinerate allows a pyrokinetic to generate intense heat as well as flame. By psychically agitating the molecules in a tightly focused area, the psyker can eventually create an effect even more devastating than a multi-melta’s; however, Incinerate requires the psyker to concentrate on a single point, making it difficult to use against non-stationary targets. Incinerate has a range of 10 metres and deals 1d10+1 Energy damage. Each Full Action spent concentrating adds 1 to the Damage to the maximum of twice the psyker’s Psy Rating. Damage caused by Incinerate ignores both armour and toughness.

Holocaust
Threshold: 6
Difficulty: 7
Sustain: Yes
Description: A legendary ability that few pyrokinetics are strong enough to even wield, much less have the courage to use, Holocaust calls forth a raging white hot firestorm ignited by the psyker’s own soul. The flames of a Holocaust burn across dimensions, affecting the entities of the Immaterium as surely as material beings, but the cost is high as the psyker risks losing his own spirit to the fury of the conflagration he has summoned. The fires of a Holocaust always burn outward from the psyker who called it, causing a number of d10s of damage equal to the psyker's Psy Rating every round to all targets within a 6-metre radius, ignoring Toughness Bonus and Armour. The psyker also takes 1d10+Psy Rating Energy damage (ignoring Toughness Bonus and Armour) every round that the Holocaust is maintained. There is no immunity to the fires of a Holocaust: Warp Entities as well as other immaterial creatures are burned as readily as the flesh bound and those slain by a Holocaust are killed forever.

cappadocius said:

Dark Heresy doesn't actually equate Psy Rating with the "Abnett System" of measuring psychic ability, so that's a false comparison in the first place (the system did originally, with Psy 6 as Alpha level, but that was removed about two years ago now).

Beyond that, Ravenor was, IIRC, described as being high-Delta, low-Gamma - the only reference to him being "Alpha-plus" was from another character, and is believed to be either an exaggeration or a writer's error. Certainly, Ravenor does encounter psykers more powerful than himself... he tends to win out in such battles through greater control, skill and tenacity rather than raw psychic force.

cappadocius said:

Psychic hoods are primarily defensive technology, as are the Aegis Suits incorporated into Grey Knight power armour (an Aegis Suit could best be depicted in-game adding Hexagrammic Wards - Inquisitor's Handbook page 189 - and Pentagrammic Wards - Disciples of the Dark Gods, page 120 - to a suit of armour). In regards to Ravenor's chair, I was imagining things that bolstered his range, and other factors not directly affected by his WP or Psy Rating.

Beyond that, Ravenor does cause a lot of Psychic Phenomena when he's going all-out... indeed, the side-effects of his intense psychic duels are one of the inspirations for the Psychic Phenomena table, so having extra effects that discount 9s is counterintuitive, really...

In the game I GM, the only girl at the table decided to play a Feral Psyker - and she role-play her very well -. She hates women in command, but she has a subconscious look-down on men, because she comes from a Matriarchal society.

Anyway, when the group finally met up with her, she happened to be un-conscious, so the team leader (the Noble Priest) put an explosive collar around her neck to keep her on a short leash. Hilarious.. She wants to get the biological augmentations discipline.. hehe..

I had an idea for a... restraining option for a psyker. He could accept to go under a special surgery that will reduce his Psy Rating by 1 permanently, but that will give him the option of forego one roll of 9/use of psychic power. Off course, if he forego that 9, he might fail the casting because of the reduced casting number he got. He'd have to choose wether loose the die before knowing the result of the Psychic Manifestation. What do you think?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actually, if you are using Ravenor for your example, you are arguing the wrong side. It wasn't a matter of the "9s", it was the power level he was using that caused the psychic phenomena. It was when he was pushing his abilities.

If he did minor things, there was no psychic phenomena. When he upped the power, more and more psychic phenomena occurred. He could easily communicate with others without any psychic phenomena. When using the wrathbone amulets (since they are Eldar), he could "ware" the members of the team without any psychic phenomena. He could scan an entire city with no psychic phenomena. But when he let loose with full power in the psychic battles portrayed, that's when there was psychic phenomena (sometimes massive!). It wasn't a matter that he "rolled 9s". It was that he was using more power. So if that's the example, the psychic phenomena should be based on the power used, not how the dice roll.

Redeucer said:

I wrote up an Abnett-based power system, there's a thread with it in the houserules forum if you're interested.

Hellebore

Redeucer said:

Redeucer said:

Look at what I posted earlier. Thanks to the Psychic Supremacy talent (from Disciples of the Dark Gods) I've assumed Ravenor has, he can use his powers carefully (1 or 2 dice) with a 1% chance of phenomena at worst... but the more dice he rolls, the greater his chances of rolling that 9 and causing something wierd to happen.

In effect, the more power he uses (the more dice he rolls), the greater the chances of one or more psychic phenomena. He rolls 1 die - and he's perfectly capable of using any Telepathy power in the game on one die, he just won't gain that much overbleed - and there's exactly 0 chance of phenomena (if you roll one die, you can only get a single 9... and if you're ignoring the first 9 for the purposes of phenomena...)... he rolls 5 dice, and there's a considerable chance that the walls will frost over, and a reasonable likelihood that even more crazy things will happen (Psychic Supremacy only works if you're using half or fewer of your maximum number of dice, so it doesn't help him here)...

Judging from the pros and cons of psi powers being based on the power level used (which would be based on the die amount rolled?) that would make pretty much any psyker the 'divining rod' power class.

If all of thier abilities say, under a 1 or 2 die where 'free of charge' and had no consequences, then wouldn't that cut out any need for most of the other players skills? Of course in the rare event it's a matter dealing with an untouchable, that could change...but still. That's balls all wrong. In this game, the whole point is: Touching the warp means something is staring back, waiting for you to do something. There's a reason most Imperial cult members (and some Inquisitorial factions) look down upon the psyker..they are using chaos and in a sense; are touched by it everytime they use a power, no matter how minor.

Of course to be honest it makes sense that the more power used, the more you're going to get fubar'd by backlash etc. That is undeniable, so that's a given. But in terms of fair play for the other characters, I can't see a psiker going around full on using all thier single die abilities with no eyebrow raising from their superiors, let alone the other characters feeling useful, if they all need to be a psiker to keep up (Even the Adept and priest class). Can we say Imperial civil war? Psiker vs Mudane. Unfortunetly as long as the game mechnics need to be a somwhat even playing field, I would be against givign a psiker such a powerful edge over all the others. Even tech priests must pay a price for being different, and a Sister's own faith-based powers are nill useless if they dabble or get hammered in something that could effectively give them a few corruption points.

I'm just saying I could see the psi-related characters getting very comortable using thier low threshold powers at-will and as a handicap for most situations (The reason it's done in books is to get the story moving because it's atypical, not the norm). The Eldar fell for a good reason in warhammer...they got complacement in thier psi-powers, and let loose the way of chaos. (In fact in most game settings that the reason any old Magik/Psi Empire falls.) That's pretty much against the grim Imperiums views, isn't it? Most people can't even handle a low level psi-ratings abilities (They cause the backlash even with a single die! Especially untrained sorcerors etc) which is why they are all deemed to go into the black ships, with only a few coming back from Terra with a sanction and an everwatchful eye on them.

Solardream said:

Erm, why would a relatively "safe" use of minor powers be seen as invalidating other characters? Are you suggesting that just because someone can move a gun with their mind, they invalidate people who can do the same with their mind?

Of course, with that said, even something that is "safe" can become "un-safe" if used a lot of times, at least when it comes to psykers and entirely IMO. It's one of the reasons that one of those archaic points of RPG's, or the resource pool, can be a useful tool when dealing with psykers.

Solardream said:

Yeah, but doesn't that buy into the idea that there are daemons everywhere? Every single psyker has their own daemon patiently watching them, waiting for them to use their powers? Daemons are annoyed because every time a ship comes from the warp its akin to being pushed out of the way, etc.?

Solardream said:

That's one of the reasons that I've included it in my own interpretation. Buggered if I can figure out how to reasonable do justice to the Psyker Grade system, though. Guess the idea is that, when dealing with GW material, it's never really going to be possible.

Solardream said:

To me this is a question that is best answered at the GM level. If you're worried about including psykers in a campaign, why bother including them?

Solardream said:

Are assassins "punished" for being able to use weapons? Or Tech Priests for using and manipulating technology?

Sure, there is a risk for being a psyker, but should it define everything about them? If that is "grimdark," then I'm glad that I'm not a believer in it.

Kage

Sure it shouldn't define them, but unlike the assassin a psyker can use psychic powers OR use weapons. They aren't curtailed to one over the other.

I'm not a massive fan of game balance, but I understand its need in a commercial product being sold to people that don't necessarily share my opinion.

On the other hand, sometimes 'game balance' is an accurate representation of the story. At which point does a psyker's susceptibility to daemons and warp corruption go from being part of the background to being an artificial 'game balance'? They DO afterall suffer these drawbacks, so it's not like its existence at all is an artificial thing, rather the 'level' of drawback is.

There are so many different ways to approach the drawbacks of a psyker. I don't see the argument as 'should they be there' but 'how MUCH should be there'.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

You are, of course, correct. That's one of the reasons that I feel that if people feel that psykers must be balanced then it becomes a gamist rather than narrativist or simulationist component. In the real world, some people are just better than others, all balance aside. They're the kind of people that should be shot at birth to give the rest of us mere mortals a chance.

Hellebore said:

Good point again. Perhaps the idea that it feels like a game balance mechanic rather than a representation of the universe itself is telling?

Kage