Putting it back with martial arts. If saber forms are the various branches of jiu jitsu with BFF and krav and bjj and the numerous other offshoots. It doesn't change that at their core they lean from the original. They have similar guards and core fundamentals. Whilst you don't have to learn the original to learn krav it doesn't change that it is a good foundation. A high level user is certainly able to compete with a bjj grappler or whatever but since the rest develop from it sensibly you still learn basics of it in almost all of them.

I don't need to insult intelligence by translating that to shii cho.. I just would have designed it that way. So that it provided basic and common skills that most of the saber trees provide without going to specific in any particular way. As a universal spec so that it could function easier as a base. Not that it can't as written I just would've done it that way.

2 minutes ago, Luahk said:

Putting it back with martial arts. If saber forms are the various branches of jiu jitsu with BFF and krav and bjj and the numerous other offshoots. It doesn't change that at their core they lean from the original. They have similar guards and core fundamentals. Whilst you don't have to learn the original to learn krav it doesn't change that it is a good foundation. A high level user is certainly able to compete with a bjj grappler or whatever but since the rest develop from it sensibly you still learn basics of it in almost all of them.

I don't need to insult intelligence by translating that to shii cho.. I just would have designed it that way. So that it provided basic and common skills that most of the saber trees provide without going to specific in any particular way. As a universal spec so that it could function easier as a base. Not that it can't as written I just would've done it that way.

The differences is that, as others have said, while the other forms may have all used Shii Cho as a basic groundwork , they only use the fundamentals of the form, and then diverge from there. They don't build off the mastery of the form. A Shii Cho knight is a master of the form, someone who has gone beyond the basics.

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The differences is that, as others have said, while the other forms may have all used Shii Cho as a basic groundwork , they only use the fundamentals of the form, and then diverge from there. They don't build off the mastery of the form. A Shii Cho knight is a master of the form, someone who has gone beyond the basics.

Which is what bjj does. They use the same fundamentals but don't use the more advanced bits. That is precisely why I used jiu jitsu as the example. Because all of those things have a very similar and recognisable base.

Which is why I said earlier the specialisations is more for a kit fitso level someone than a learner. I

5 hours ago, Luahk said:

Which is why I said earlier the specialisations is more for a kit fitso level someone than a learner. I

While the sentence seems somewhat garbled (guess you were in a rush there ), it would appear, that we mostly agree on the fact, that the Shii Cho Knight is about going beyond the basics and mastering the form. That being said, this discussion seems to get somewhat repetetive, running in circles and ultimately going nowhere, right now (no offense intended).

6 minutes ago, [Arkas] said:

While the sentence seems somewhat garbled (guess you were in a rush there ), it would appear, that we mostly agree on the fact, that the Shii Cho Knight is about going beyond the basics and mastering the form. That being said, this discussion seems to get somewhat repetetive, running in circles and ultimately going nowhere, right now (no offense intended).

None taken.

I do feel that way yes. What I'm saying is I would have designed a less.. Good? One to act as the universal tree for this book. Perhaps with a spec in warrior that worked best to expand upon it or something.

I do get that the tree as written represents a more comprehensive education than just the basic footholds. Which is fine.

1 hour ago, Luahk said:

What I'm saying is I would have designed a less.. Good? One to act as the universal tree for this book.

Yeah, I actually thought that way too, when I first read F&D. I do however see why they did not go that way, as it does seem rather unfitting in the chosen setting. In times where there is a Jedi Order (or something like it) it would be a different thing ofcourse and maybe there will be a supplement offering exactly that.

3 hours ago, [Arkas] said:

Yeah, I actually thought that way too, when I first read F&D. I do however see why they did not go that way, as it does seem rather unfitting in the chosen setting. In times where there is a Jedi Order (or something like it) it would be a different thing ofcourse and maybe there will be a supplement offering exactly that.

Yeah I get it. I just hope we get jar kai and juyo in the warrior.

12 hours ago, Luahk said:

Which is what bjj does. They use the same fundamentals but don't use the more advanced bits. That is precisely why I used jiu jitsu as the example. Because all of those things have a very similar and recognisable base.

Which is why I said earlier the specialisations is more for a kit fitso level someone than a learner. I

Yes, but that is also the very reason why Shii Cho Knight should not be a Universal specialization. It is because it is not just the basic fundamentals of the form, but rather advanced training in the form.

Question should i change jal shey from a diplomat with cool force powers to a diplomat/armour smith hybrid...with cool force powers, by exchanging leadership with engineering?

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but that is also the very reason why Shii Cho Knight should not be a Universal specialization. It is because it is not just the basic fundamentals of the form, but rather advanced training in the form.

Yeah I get what you're saying and I get it. I'm saying that shii cho has within it the fundamentals of lightsaber combat. Much like jiu jitsu.

1 minute ago, Luahk said:

Yeah I get what you're saying and I get it. I'm saying that shii cho has within it the fundamentals of lightsaber combat. Much like jiu jitsu.

Yes, but only the fundamentals transfer over, not the specialization as a whole. The specialization itself represents advanced training that the other lightsaber forms don't include.

30 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

Question should i change jal shey from a diplomat with cool force powers to a diplomat/armour smith hybrid...with cool force powers, by exchanging leadership with engineering?

I always vote powers.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but only the fundamentals transfer over, not the specialization as a whole. The specialization itself represents advanced training that the other lightsaber forms don't include.

Which is why it wouldn't fit being a universal is what you're saying?

Just now, Luahk said:

Yeah I get what you're saying and I get it. I'm saying that shii cho has within it the fundamentals of lightsaber combat. Much like jiu jitsu.

And has been mentioned, the basics of Shii-Cho is covered simply by having ranks in the Lightsaber skill. This very accurately accounts for Luke's lightsaber combat prowess prior to his training under Yoda in ESB, at which point he started spending XP into either Shii-Cho Knight or Shien Expert to starting picking up Parry and Reflect talents.

Getting things like Parry and Reflect account for the advanced study of any of the Forms. What you're trying to force is that someone that's had rudimentary hand-to-hand combat training is on the same tier of capability as someone that's studied a martial arts form for several years.

If you do some actual research into the Forms' history in Legends (which is what the designers drew upon as it was part of canon at the time the rules were being written), you'll find that while all the later Forms have their core roots in Shii-Cho, they all branch off in different directions due to different approaches to combat. It'd be akin to claiming that because all the various forms of kung fu sprang from a common root style that they said common root style should be easily learnable by anyone, when the reality is that there's a wide swath of difference between many of the styles of kung fu.

While Shii-Cho was the starting point, the subsequent Forms went in very different directions. If anything, Niman would the closest to a "default Form" that was taught to Jedi students during the Rise of the Empire era, since it was well-suited to the Jedi role as peacekeepers; and it was only during the active fighting of the Clone Wars that it began falling out of favor due to how ill-suited it was for warfare conditions.

1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And has been mentioned, the basics of Shii-Cho is covered simply by having ranks in the Lightsaber skill. This very accurately accounts for Luke's lightsaber combat prowess prior to his training under Yoda in ESB, at which point he started spending XP into either Shii-Cho Knight or Shien Expert to starting picking up Parry and Reflect talents.

Getting things like Parry and Reflect account for the advanced study of any of the Forms. What you're trying to force is that someone that's had rudimentary hand-to-hand combat training is on the same tier of capability as someone that's studied a martial arts form for several years.

If you do some actual research into the Forms' history in Legends (which is what the designers drew upon as it was part of canon at the time the rules were being written), you'll find that while all the later Forms have their core roots in Shii-Cho, they all branch off in different directions due to different approaches to combat. It'd be akin to claiming that because all the various forms of kung fu sprang from a common root style that they said common root style should be easily learnable by anyone, when the reality is that there's a wide swath of difference between many of the styles of kung fu.

While Shii-Cho was the starting point, the subsequent Forms went in very different directions. If anything, Niman would the closest to a "default Form" that was taught to Jedi students during the Rise of the Empire era, since it was well-suited to the Jedi role as peacekeepers; and it was only during the active fighting of the Clone Wars that it began falling out of favor due to how ill-suited it was for warfare conditions.

You went in a loop of assumptions and not reading what I'm saying. Which is the point that the other fellow made.

I entirely grasp what you're saying. This is not the issue here.

10 minutes ago, Luahk said:

Which is why it wouldn't fit being a universal is what you're saying?

Exactly.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly.

I felt from my understanding of shii cho that particularly good saber welders could get more from the style and make use of its subtleties that someone who used it as a gateway could not.

But I see that as the individuals skill/ability and not to relate it to the tree itself.

As I understand it you are of the thought that, much like Japanese jiu jitsu, most people would've learnt the fundamentals that helped them regardless and then not gone onto learning the more advanced techniques. They instead went on to learn a different martial art with the transferable skills only and left the other stuff they could've learnt behind.

The specialisation in game covers all of those things that most folk, in the prequels for example, leave behind.

1 minute ago, Luahk said:

I felt from my understanding of shii cho that particularly good saber welders could get more from the style and make use of its subtleties that someone who used it as a gateway could not.

But I see that as the individuals skill/ability and not to relate it to the tree itself.

As I understand it you are of the thought that, much like Japanese jiu jitsu, most people would've learnt the fundamentals that helped them regardless and then not gone onto learning the more advanced techniques. They instead went on to learn a different martial art with the transferable skills only and left the other stuff they could've learnt behind.

The specialisation in game covers all of those things that most folk, in the prequels for example, leave behind.

Precisely. While each style uses the fundamentals of Shii Cho as a basis , they diverge from it much sooner than you seem to think. You seem to look at it as the entire style of Shii Cho is learned before the other styles are built upon it, whereas everyone else here is saying that only the fundamentals (which are covered by the basic Lightsaber skill) are transferred over. That is a key reason why the style specialization does not fit as a universal spec. the second key reason is that it would prevent someone from taking the style as their first spec, which must come from their chosen career .

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Precisely. While each style uses the fundamentals of Shii Cho as a basis , they diverge from it much sooner than you seem to think. You seem to look at it as the entire style of Shii Cho is learned before the other styles are built upon it, whereas everyone else here is saying that only the fundamentals (which are covered by the basic Lightsaber skill) are transferred over. That is a key reason why the style specialization does not fit as a universal spec. the second key reason is that it would prevent someone from taking the style as their first spec, which must come from their chosen career .

Yeah I got that from a while back. From my reading and in the games I've played I took it as.

You are a jedi you learn this. Great.. But I don't practice 60-80% of this the moment I find a form that suits me.

You then as a result don't practice it. Without a decline system which seems unessecary that wouldn't make sense in game.

If you practice one set of movements a whole bunch you can compensate for and anticipate it's own faults and whenever you do use something it is more crisp.

So what you're saying is that most jedi have (martial arts again) a white belt level of education in shii cho then move to other stuff without learning stuff that is irrelevant to the other form or obsolete.

2 minutes ago, Luahk said:

Yeah I got that from a while back. From my reading and in the games I've played I took it as.

You are a jedi you learn this. Great.. But I don't practice 60-80% of this the moment I find a form that suits me.

You then as a result don't practice it. Without a decline system which seems unessecary that wouldn't make sense in game.

If you practice one set of movements a whole bunch you can compensate for and anticipate it's own faults and whenever you do use something it is more crisp.

So what you're saying is that most jedi have (martial arts again) a white belt in shii cho then move to other stuff without learning stuff that is irrelevant to the other form or obsolete.

Sort of but not quite. I'd say it's more like how the military trains soldiers. All soldiers learn Basic Infantry Training to learn the basics of soldiering. After this time (eight weeks for the US Army, the branch I served in), They each move on to Advanced Individual Training where they learn their specific MOS (Military Operational Specialization), be it Cook, any of the Signal Corps jobs, Medic, Military Police, Military Intelligence, etc. Many, however continue on to Advanced Infantry Training, where they learn the advanced skills a dedicated Infantry soldier needs that those with a different MOS don't. By the same token, each form starts with the basics of Shii Cho as a foundation built into it., but then branch off. Whereas some dedicate themselves to the study the advanced techniques of Shii Cho. There are certain moves which all of the forms use, which require a basic fundamental training, which comes from Shii Cho. Those basic moves become ingrained through basic training , so it's not even "White Belt" level training. It's strictly the basic fundamentals of swordplay : How to hold the weapon, the individual strike zones, how to wield the weapon without hurting yourself, the basics of parrying strikes at each zone, etc. The simple stuff. Then, once they have mastered these basics, they move on to an actual style . These styles are the six Style Specs we have in the game. There are also those who never go beyond the basics of swordplay, but which are still "Lightsaber" specs. These include the Armorer , Arbiter , and the Sentry , for example. Each gains several Lightsaber focused talents, as well as the Lightsaber Skill as a career skill, but are not covered by any of the six formal styles .

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Sort of but not quite. I'd say it's more like how the military trains soldiers. All soldiers learn Basic Infantry Training to learn the basics of soldiering. After this time (eight weeks for the US Army, the branch I served in), They each move on to Advanced Individual Training where they learn their specific MOS (Military Operational Specialization), be it Cook, any of the Signal Corps jobs, Medic, Military Police, Military Intelligence, etc. Many, however continue on to Advanced Infantry Training, where they learn the advanced skills a dedicated Infantry soldier needs that those with a different MOS don't. By the same token, each form starts with the basics of Shii Cho as a foundation built into it., but then branch off. Whereas some dedicate themselves to the study the advanced techniques of Shii Cho. There are certain moves which all of the forms use, which require a basic fundamental training, which comes from Shii Cho. Those basic moves become ingrained through basic training , so it's not even "White Belt" level training. It's strictly the basic fundamentals of swordplay : How to hold the weapon, the individual strike zones, how to wield the weapon without hurting yourself, the basics of parrying strikes at each zone, etc. The simple stuff. Then, once they have mastered these basics, they move on to an actual style . These styles are the six Style Specs we have in the game. There are also those who never go beyond the basics of swordplay, but which are still "Lightsaber" specs. These include the Armorer , Arbiter , and the Sentry , for example. Each gains several Lightsaber focused talents, as well as the Lightsaber Skill as a career skill, but are not covered by any of the six formal styles .

This does make sense. What about in EU where you learn the sequences of the other forms in order to combat people? (Yes I realise this should've had it's own post by now)

2 minutes ago, Luahk said:

This does make sense. What about in EU where you learn the sequences of the other forms in order to combat people? (Yes I realise this should've had it's own post by now)

Learning to recognize certain sequences is not the same as actually being trained in how to use them , and that is really all that was done. A student would learn to recognize a style, based upon any given set of sequences used by that style, and thus, figure out certain weaknesses in said sequence. That doesn't mean that the student would know how to actually perform that sequence.

No I meant how would you do this in game.

2 minutes ago, Luahk said:

No I meant how would you do this in game.

I wouldn't.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I wouldn't.

Lol I haven't been either but it was brought up to me and I didn't have an answer. I just felt it inappropriate. Alright thanks.