Recently the issue of how many characters can be used to Parry a hit came up during our game.

The scenario was that a Jedi Character (PC1) had hit a lightsaber wielding bad-guy NPC and brought them to their Wound Threshold (so not unconscious). The 2nd Jedi Character (PC2) was coming in for the kill. The NPC turned to the first attacker and begged for her life, claiming that if she was spared, she would give them all the information she knew about the plot against them.

The other PC didn't care (yes there was conflict a plenty), and came down for the strike.

PC1 had Circle of Shelter, and Parry whilst the NPC had Parry.

PC2 was going to do a lot of damage, and so PC1 wanted to use Circle of Shelter against PC2's attack, thus allowing the NPC to parry the remaining amount.

The Parry talent says the following:

Quote

When the character suffers a hit from a Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber combat check, after damage is calculated (but before soak is applied, so immediately after step 3 of Perform a Combat Check, page 148), the character may take a Parry incidental. He suffers 3 strain and reduces the damage dealt by that hit from the attack by a number equal to two plus his ranks in Parry. This talent may only be used when the character is wielding a Lightsaber or Melee weapon.

The talent doesn't talk about being only able to be used once like the Deflect talent does. As a result my question is this:

Can the attack from PC2 be parried by both PC1 and the NPC using the above method?

My thought on this would be to say no, that it can only be Parried once, even if the situation you have.

While your case is a cool scenario (and props to PC1), the potential problem if you allow the PC benefiting from Circle of Shelter to also use Parry, is that it allows the targeted PC to "double-dip" and effectively get the benefits of Parry twice. Since FFG designed the combat to be quick and dangerous, being allowed to double-dip on Parry seems to run counter to that.

Yes, both of them (in this case PC1 and NPC) may be suffering strain to use Parry, but that's not too significant a drawback, and depending on the PC's build may be a trivial investment.

Also, with regards to Reflect, the two talents are worded similarly enough in their execution that I'd suspect the intent is that you can only Parry once per attack, and I think it's been dev-clarified that a PC can't use Parry multiple times on the same hit.

Dono, can you point me in the direction of that clarification please?

I would say it could be used to parry twice. Once with the parry score from the PC using circle of shelter and once from the NPC, provided the NPC still has a weapon to parry with or has unarmed parry.

It's one of the main things a protector is supposed to be able to do. Guarding others and stuff and making the enemy focus on them, which is a thing in pretty much all the guardian builds. The PC using circle of shelter doesn't get any extra parry to use for themselves, and unless anyone else in engaged range has the same talent they're not going to get any extra reflect or parry. So it's a pretty circumstantial one that you can get around in various ways.

3 hours ago, GM Hooly said:

Dono, can you point me in the direction of that clarification please?

It may have been an Order 66 podcast, or back during the F&D Beta, as it's not in Kaosae's dev answers thread.

Although looking at your description of the talent's text and comparing it to what's in the book (page 149), you left out part of the last sentence, which reads "This talent may only be used once per hit and when the character is wielding a Melee or Lightsaber weapon."

I'd say the "only used once per hit" covers the RAW answer to your question rather clearly.

3 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

It's one of the main things a protector is supposed to be able to do. Guarding others and stuff and making the enemy focus on them, which is a thing in pretty much all the guardian builds. The PC using circle of shelter doesn't get any extra parry to use for themselves, and unless anyone else in engaged range has the same talent they're not going to get any extra reflect or parry. So it's a pretty circumstantial one that you can get around in various ways.

Part of Protector is defending those who are unable to directly defend themselves, letting the character share their ability to Parry/Reflect with PCs (or NPCs) lacking said defenses via the Circle of Shelter talent.

It just feels really cheesy that a couple of PCs could stack Parry and Reflect to in effect use each talent twice against a single hit, and only a couple steps removed from allowing a PC to use Parry and Reflect multiple times against a single hit.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Although looking at your description of the talent's text and comparing it to what's in the book (page 149), you left out part of the last sentence, which reads "This talent may only be used once per hit and when the character is wielding a Melee or Lightsaber weapon."

I'd say the "only used once per hit" covers the RAW answer to your question rather clearly.

My view of this is that it's once per hit for you. The talent Parry doesn't need any clearer wording because it can only normally be used by the target individual. But Circle of Shelter changes how the Parry talent works, and thus, IMO you should be able to double-Parry an attack in this case. They're both paying strain, so nothing's happening for free anyway.

I would go with it. In a game as imbalanced as SWRPG where some characters can flip a destiny point to ignore the armor on an AT-AT with personal-scale firearms, and others can cobble together a vehicle that lasts for exactly one encounter with an action, rule of cool is ultimately the inspiration for the game's mechanics. And to me, a Jedi Guardian and an injured prisoner both locking their lightsabers together to block a blow from the vengeful buddy of the Jedi is pretty cool - not only that, but as @awayputurwpn said, the Guardian has an ability that allows him to change the way parry works. I see no issue with stretching this rule just a little bit in the name of good storytelling.

I wouldn't allow it for reflect, though. That seems quite difficult to explain narratively.

Okay, so I've got to ask: did anyone else hear Winged Hussars by Sabaton start playing when they read about that use of Circle of Shelter?

...I guess not.

Personally I'd vote for it... especially since we see things like that in the movies / shows and it is a cool and jedi thing to do.

Just don't let it be over used. One person helping and no more on parry and 2 or 3 and no more helping on reflect if the recipient of the reflect talent doesn't have any form of defense. How often have you seen Anakin and Obi Wan using reflect together to save a bunch of clones or the like? Narrativly speaking it works and would look cool!

Don't see a problem with this. Both characters would build up strain quickly plus having to stay engaged with each other would limit tactical options. In the op's case it is adding to the story.

It’s not double dipping on parry as two people are parrying. One with circle of shelter and the other for themselves. There’s only one hit not multiple hits, but narratively you could describe it as the PC parrying the blow and the NPC parrying the follow up in the attack sequence.

Basically the rules are not as clear as I would like them to be, but it does stand that there is the basic rule (you hit and do damage), then the talent (Parry - can reduce that damage by parrying the hit), the the 2nd talent (Circle of Shelter - when you can also use Parry on someone else's hit). The talents increase in their ability to break the base rule the higher you go. Sure a pair of Jedi could do that all day, but the bad guys would get this idea pretty quickly with the leader yelling "Set Weapons to stun!" or "Autofire! Now!"

Now couple this with Parry (Supreme) which as long as you don't attack, Parrying costs 1 strain.

Discuss.

1 hour ago, GM Hooly said:

Basically the rules are not as clear as I would like them to be, but it does stand that there is the basic rule (you hit and do damage), then the talent (Parry - can reduce that damage by parrying the hit), the the 2nd talent (Circle of Shelter - when you can also use Parry on someone else's hit). The talents increase in their ability to break the base rule the higher you go. Sure a pair of Jedi could do that all day, but the bad guys would get this idea pretty quickly with the leader yelling "Set Weapons to stun!" or "Autofire! Now!"

Now couple this with Parry (Supreme) which as long as you don't attack, Parrying costs 1 strain.

Discuss.

The two PC's would both have had to go into protector and soresu defender to get both of those. Which would allow them to defend against a bunch of incoming blaster fire, provided they take no offensive actions. So they're restricted to staying in engaged range with each other, not taking any offensive actions and thereby limiting their damage to whatever they manage to improved reflect back and while it doesn't cost a huge amount of strain it still costs strain.

It's a very strong defense, but can still be penetrated by stuff with flame and blast. On top of that you can spread out squads so that they can either be bogged down and get faced with overwhelming reinforcements or split up, thereby negating their focus, and dealing with the squads quicker. There is also environmental stuff you can add in, test athletics or coordination. Fail and you take strain based on amount of failures. I wouldn't have any problems with my players doing something like that, it's not something that breaks the game and you can still get at them in various ways.

2 hours ago, GM Hooly said:

Basically the rules are not as clear as I would like them to be, but it does stand that there is the basic rule (you hit and do damage), then the talent (Parry - can reduce that damage by parrying the hit), the the 2nd talent (Circle of Shelter - when you can also use Parry on someone else's hit). The talents increase in their ability to break the base rule the higher you go. Sure a pair of Jedi could do that all day, but the bad guys would get this idea pretty quickly with the leader yelling "Set Weapons to stun!" or "Autofire! Now!"

Now couple this with Parry (Supreme) which as long as you don't attack, Parrying costs 1 strain.

Discuss.

I feel that the parry and reflect rules are the most un-Star Wars feeling rules in Force and Destiny. I mean Ezra Bridger at 17 years of age can reflect Tie Fighter blaster bolts, in canon no less. I know the developers are concerned about balance but screw balance if it breaks the space opera feel of the franchise.

There is another post on these forums I remember reading where the GM who posted his house rule where used each level of reflect as a failure. So reflect 4 is four failures added to the hit, which would fix the underpowered feel of the light saber specs, a master of Soresu is supposed to be almost unhittable in the old EU.

Also all the light saber specs should be universal spec trees.

What do you mean by "the higher you go?"

If you're talking about Improved Parry, then it doesn't get better. Three Threat can be spent to activate the counter-strike, and if both Parrying characters have Improved Parry, then the check has to generate 6 Threat (or two Despairs) for both of them to get a chance at activating the talent.

But if you're just talking about more ranks in the Parry talent, then yeah definitely.

Supreme Parry is nice, but your options are pretty limited in a combat situation—allowing the attacker to keep making combat checks while you don't. Granted, there are a couple abilities like Scathing Tirade that could potentially wear your opponent down, but a) that's just really good for playing Jedi who aren't murder hobos and 2) it's a build with quite a high XP tax.

2 hours ago, Eoen said:

I feel that the parry and reflect rules are the most un-Star Wars feeling rules in Force and Destiny. I mean Ezra Bridger at 17 years of age can reflect Tie Fighter blaster bolts, in canon no less. I know the developers are concerned about balance but screw balance if it breaks the space opera feel of the franchise.

There is another post on these forums I remember reading where the GM who posted his house rule where used each level of reflect as a failure. So reflect 4 is four failures added to the hit, which would fix the underpowered feel of the light saber specs, a master of Soresu is supposed to be almost unhittable in the old EU.

Also all the light saber specs should be universal spec trees.

I agree that the LS trees feel underwhelming and that Ezra is quite skilled using reflect. Yet as much as I don't like it I have to agree with them being so. I personally think that it's more a matter of training than balance. You can teach yourself computer programming but any martial artist will tell you that it is almost impossible to truly learn MA by yourself. There is just too much involved in it and do a move wrong and you'll hurt yourself more than your opponent. Heck Luke had a trainer even if it was only for a short time and he lost a hand quite quickly to Vader who clearly wasn't even trying.

With regards to them being universal trees... if it was my table and there was a legitimate trainer... ie a training droid or the like, then any LS tree he/she/it had would be universal.

Course it would be nice of them to bring out a universal LS tree... maybe it requires a force rating to buy it?

12 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

I agree that the LS trees feel underwhelming and that Ezra is quite skilled using reflect. Yet as much as I don't like it I have to agree with them being so. I personally think that it's more a matter of training than balance. You can teach yourself computer programming but any martial artist will tell you that it is almost impossible to truly learn MA by yourself. There is just too much involved in it and do a move wrong and you'll hurt yourself more than your opponent. Heck Luke had a trainer even if it was only for a short time and he lost a hand quite quickly to Vader who clearly wasn't even trying.

With regards to them being universal trees... if it was my table and there was a legitimate trainer... ie a training droid or the like, then any LS tree he/she/it had would be universal.

Course it would be nice of them to bring out a universal LS tree... maybe it requires a force rating to buy it?

A Tie/ln’s lasers do 6 vehicle damage that’s 60 personal scale damage, you could train every lightsaber spec in game to full and under RAW not be able to reflect that.

If you have a lightsaber spec I would assume you’d have to have been trained, or you’d likely be missing some body parts.

In TCW most pawdawans knew more than one lightsaber form but it seems like they all knew improved reflect regardless of their role as in the Jedi order.

31 minutes ago, Eoen said:

A Tie/ln’s lasers do 6 vehicle damage that’s 60 personal scale damage, you could train every lightsaber spec in game to full and under RAW not be able to reflect that.

If you have a lightsaber spec I would assume you’d have to have been trained, or you’d likely be missing some body parts.

In TCW most pawdawans knew more than one lightsaber form but it seems like they all knew improved reflect regardless of their role as in the Jedi order.

Oh I agree about the whole vs damage vs. ps damage and reflect issue. There is a whole thread ( I think the one you mentioned with ranks in reflect =failures) on the topic with house rule suggestions on fixing it and reasons that it isn't broken... but really that is reflect that is not quite up to snuff. And I wouldn't want to stand in front of a vs weapon for long cuz one slip on my part and I'm done... nor would I want my pc's there either!

But the big difference is that all the pc's I know that have a LS form don't have formal training whereas Ezra does... even if it is just from a barely knighted character.

**shush** personally if it was my table I'd allow it... but I wouldn't do it unless I had about 8 ranks in reflect which means 2 trees at least and a LOT of xp.

*edit*

I think the biggest thing is that parry and reflect should use the same talent / skill... but I kinda understand why they don't.

2 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

Oh I agree about the whole vs damage vs. ps damage and reflect issue. There is a whole thread ( I think the one you mentioned with ranks in reflect =failures) on the topic with house rule suggestions on fixing it and reasons that it isn't broken... but really that is reflect that is not quite up to snuff. And I wouldn't want to stand in front of a vs weapon for long cuz one slip on my part and I'm done... nor would I want my pc's there either!

But the big difference is that all the pc's I know that have a LS form don't have formal training whereas Ezra does... even if it is just from a barely knight character.

**shush** personally if it was my table I'd allow it... but I wouldn't do it unless I had about 8 ranks in reflect which means 2 trees at least and a LOT of xp.

I really suspect that Rebels is just Pablo Hildagos D6 Star Wars campaign taken to the ultimate fan boy conclusion.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

What do you mean by "the higher you go?"

What I mean that the more talents you have beyond the base rule of "you attack, you succeed, you do damage", the more your Talents break the system. Its the basic premise of any game design, in the same way that Feats are designed in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder.

50 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

Course it would be nice of them to bring out a universal LS tree... maybe it requires a force rating to buy it?

Isn't there one Lightsaber Form left - Form VII - Vaapad?

5 minutes ago, GM Hooly said:

Isn't there one Lightsaber Form left - Form VII - Vaapad?

Yeah Juyo - Vaapad and the Sith form Dun Möch and some minor forms like Sokan, Jar'Kai, Tràkata, Trispzest.

So there is still a few to draw from. I think we might get that if we ever see an Imperial Book or Darkside Book where the PCs can play Inquisitors.

Game companies always seem to wait forever to come out with dark side supplements.