I have played WFRP for the first time and have a question. How many actions does it take to fire a bow? It doesnt have reload so i figure one action. My GM says i have to draw the arrow first and that is an action too. Hence i can fire every other turn. Wich one is true according to the rules?

Loading a weapon is a manoeuvre (not an Action). You get one free manoeuvre every turn, to go with your Action. So, provided you're not doing anything else, you should be able to load and fire every turn for free.

Even if you are doing something else that is a manoeuvre, like moving around or opening a door, then you can buy extra manoeuvres for one Fatigue each, but you usually only ever get one Action per turn.

Bows fire without expending a maneuver to load. Remember that even weapons that have the Reload quality can be fired without spending a maneuver to load them, it just adds to the difficulty of the shot (since you were loading the weapon hastily rather than being deliberate about it).

mac40k said:

D'oh. My mistake.

My GM have conceeded that i can fire a bow in one round expending one manouver to draw and nock the arrow and one action to actually fire it. I still say that it is just an action. English isnt my first language so decipher RPG rules can sometimes be a hassle. Can someone point to a place in the rules that can solve this mystery for us one and for all

The table with ranged weapon properties is at p. 76. The Longbow and Shortbow do not have the special quality Reload, thus you do not have to spend a manoeuvre to reload them. The Reload quality is described on p. 74.

That's the written rules, your GM may of course change them if he wants.

As for weapons with the Reload quality, I've ruled it does take a maneuver to reload. It can be done for 'free' in conjunction with other simple maneuvers, but it is required. What's interesting the way the rule reads is even the first shot of an encounter - when the weapon's most likely loaded and charged - also requires a reload roll. That went out the window with the first pistol shot fired in our game.

"wait, I have to reload a gun that's already loaded? Whuuu?"

Ok there seems to be a consensus in my favor. Anyone who favors the other view and if you do why?

My GM uses these paragraphs below(p52) to support his view. Especially the last, to draw something from your pack, meaning to draw the arrow from the quiver. This is a valid point. Any thoughts about this?
Is this a matter of interpretation?

Manage Equipment.
Managing items and equipment is accomplished by performing manoeuvres, and covers the following diferent functions.

Draw, sheathe, ready, or load a weapon . This manoeuvre covers the basic manipulations of most weapons, such as drawing a sword from its scabbard, stringing and preparing a longbow, or pulling the lever on a crossbow and loading a new bolt. Some weapons have a special quality requiring a manoeuvre to ready it before it can be used in combat.
Draw something from your pack . A character can perform a manoeuvre to retrieve an item from a pouch, backpack, satchel, belt, or some other accessible container. This can also be used to stow items in a similar fashion.

To gruntl: Of course the GM have the final call in any rule dispute and can change them as he wish. But i want to know what is intended in the rules.

I find it quite clear that the rules intend bows to not require any maneuvres to reload. An action card like Rapid shot would not really work if that was the case. The manage equipment maneuovre is something else, if it was supposed to cover drawing an arrow from a quiver, that would have been written out.

I can see that some GM's may want to house rule reload times for bows to limit the power of the card above and bows in general. Then again, not that I care much about balance, but why would people use bows at all if they required a reload maneouvre? Crossbows do more damage (well longbows do the same vs armored targets). So, then you'd have to tweak reload times for X-bows and blackpowder weapons to 2 maneouvres (making them very much worse than they currently are).

Fwiw, I charge a manoeuvre to reload a bow, partly because I think the rules are generous in this respect, partly to keep my annoying wood-elf hunter down, and partly to add to the value of manoeuvres and especially free manoeuvres. I charge a manoeuvre just for being in melee, too, for example.

But if you want to know what is intended in the rules, then I agree with everyone else: reloads are free for bows.

From the book, drawing amunition + reloading = free with a bow, and it should cost 1 manoeuver with range weapon with "reload" quality.

My GM's call, agreed by players, is different. My players considers range attacks are unbalanced compared to melee attacks because they do as high damage (AGI instead of STR) without taking the same amount of risks.

• Draw any ammo for a ranged weapon costs 1 maneuver (as it costs 1 maneuver to draw a melee or thrown weapon). You may save maneuvers by preparing those ammos out of quarrels before the encounter (i.e. in the ground near the character, or on a adjacent cover).
• When you know how to multishot in 1 action through an action card (i.e. Rapid Shot ), you logicaly also know how to "multidraw" the necessary ammunitions in 1 maneuver (as Legolas shot 4 or 5 orcs in a row at the end of the Fellowship Of The Ring).
• Anyway, Reloading a weapon is a different maneuver. So, weapons with the "reload" quality need 2 maneuvers between each attack : 1 to draw ammunition and 1 to reload. That's one shot per 2 rounds, except if you get free maneuvers, spend a fatigue or prepare your ammunition before the encounter.

Moreover I add one challenge dice to range shot when engaged.

willmanx said:

Honestly, that rule makes crossbows and blackpowder weapons so bad that you may as well remove them from the game. I guess none of your players use those kind of weapons?

@willmanx: Ranged shot cannot be used when engaged. One of the requirements is "not engaged with an enemy".

After re-reading the relevant entries, I'm reversing my ruling and admitting that I think we've been playing it wrong. The rules clearly call for loading a weapon to be a maneuver and even uses loading a crossbow as an example. The description of crossbow states that it is easier to use than a bow, but slower to load, yet the Reload quality doesn't automatically take a maneuver. It just takes one to avoid firing with additional penalty. So it now looks to me like it should be 1 maneuver to load a bow, but two to load a crossbow, unless you are doing it hastily and take the extra <P> of difficulty.

This makes using a bow at long range (it's preferred distance) no worse than it is now, since the archer would rarely need to spend his free maneuver to do anything else other than load. However, it greatly reduces the effectiveness of bows at shorter ranges where the archer may also need to use maneuvers to move to avoid becoming engaged with an enemy. So if an archer wants to fire while retreating, rather than waiting to get to a safe distance to shoot, that's going to cause him to take some Fatigue. This balances the fact that for a melee weapon equipped opponent to close and engage a bow armed character at medium range, it is 2 maneuvers and also addresses the lack of range penalties (in terms of misfortune dice) that others thought were necessary to offset the supposed superiority of ranged weapons over melee weapons. In short, if you have the luxury of setting up a sniper post at long range and can kill an enemy before he can close, great. However, if you are shooting at a charging enemy, you will at some point have to choose flight over fight, or else resign yourself to becoming engaged, drop your ranged weapon and draw a melee weapon.

This also solves the issue some people had with Rapid Fire being overpowered, especially on the Reckless side, since each additional shot would cost an additional maneuver, thereby resulting in Fatigue. Therefore, I don't agree with the house rule that willmanx suggested that the action automatically conveys free load maneuvers. So unless you roll two boons and get the free maneuver, it's not only the increasing difficulty that keeps the action "in check", it is that it is tiring and at some point you'll accumulate too much Fatigue. Once you exceed T, it starts adding , so you're more likely to miss sooner than just adding the <P> alone. It's less likely that you will roll two boons, but more likely that you will roll two banes due to the increasing difficulty which through universal effects the GM could use to apply an additional Fatigue as well. So even with no Fatigue before using Rapid Fire, with a T of 3 you may be lucky enough to roll two boons on the first shot, but I think you'd get off far fewer additional shots than were feared. Third shot's a <PPP> and it's more likely that you rolled two banes on the second shot making Fatigue = 3 (1 for second shot, 1 from two banes on second shot, and 1 from maneuver to load 3rd shot). Fourth shot is <PPPP> since you will have to take yet another fatigue load the 4th shot, but more likely <PPPP>[bB] due to rolling two banes on the 3rd shot. Even if you somehow hit with this, if you roll two banes on this shot, you're now at Fatigue 6 and a 5th shot isn't possible since you'd pass out from Fatigue exceeding T if you try to load again.

I would definitely not interpret the rules like that, I guess it is open for interpretation. But it would make the rules terribly badly written, it just makes no sense that they haven't written that drawing an arrow requires a maneouvre in that case.

Also, the combat example with Mellerion has the wood elf using one maneouvre to ready his longbow (as in stringing it or taking it from his back), but no maneouvre to get an arrow.

It certainly makes sense as a house rule (although I still think it hits weapons with the reload quality a lot harder than bows) if you find ranged combat too deadly.

keltheos said:

Most people don't walk aorund with a black powder weapon loaded. They didn't during the revolutionary or civil wars. For the most part, the powder wouldn't stay in place with all the movement, nor would it be kept safely dry, etc. So, in a typical battle with a black powder weapon, you did have to load it just before you fired the first shot.

@mac40k :

The problem is that the Reload quality says if you don't use a maneuver to reload you may still fire but gain <P>. This implies that ranged weapons without the reload quality may fire without using a maneuver, and without penalty.

I could see house ruling adding a to non-reload weapons that don't use a maneuver to reload, though.

I agree that it is poorly worded. The wording under Standard Maneuvers says:

Manage Equipment . Managing items and equipment is accomplished by performing manoeuvres, and covers the following different functions.

• Draw, sheathe, ready, or load a weapon. This manoeuvre covers the basic manipulations of most weapons, such as drawing a sword from its scabbard, stringing and preparing a longbow, or pulling the lever on a crossbow and loading a new bolt. Some weapons have a special quality requiring a manoeuvre to ready it before it can be used in combat.

This clearly says that loading a weapon is a maneuver. The problem is that it lists stringing a bow and loading a crossbow as examples, but does not use notching an arrow as an example. This is further complicated by the wording of the last sentence. There are no weapons that "require a maneuver to ready before it can be used." There are Actions that have the Prepare maneuver and weapons that have the Reload special quality , but as already stated, the Reload special quality does not enforce spending a maneuver. That is one of two alternatives, the other being using the weapon at increased difficulty without spending a maneuver.

If it doesn't take a maneuver to load a weapon, why is that listed at all? Specifically for a crossbow, which is used as an example and also has the Reload special quality? Why not just leave it as draw, sheathe, or ready a weapon?

I think "load" in the first sentence refers to the reload maneouvre. As in, if you want to take your time to load a crossbow or a blackpowder weapon carefully (i.e. not suffer from +1 <P>), you have to use one maneouvre to satisfy the requirement the Reload condition. If it wasn't stated as a maneouvre, you may have thought that the Reload quality meant that you had to use an action (or 2+ maneouvres). Then it's given again at the description of the Reload quality for completeness.

The sentense "require a maneouvre to ready before it can be used" might refer to crossbows/blackpowder weapons again, although I do agree that sentence is a bit superfluous in that case. It is not impossible, however, that there could be weapons in expansions that have the special quality "Heavy" (or something) and require a readying manoeuvre.

If you're right, the combat example in the book (and which can be found here:http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=899, for easy reference) is wrong. That wouldn't be very surprising since the combat example is already wrong (although this was corrected in the faq and the webpage above), with a preparation manoeuvre being used for Accurate shot although that action does not need one.

So all in all I guess there's not a strong case for either position, I would go with the "free reload" interpretation because in my mind that requires less assumptions on the rules being wrong.

Hmm it seems that the interpretations is as diversified as the number of posters. I thank everyone who has taken the time to help me with my question. It seem that nothing but a staff ruling will resolve this. If they even do that kind of things in the forums.

Play well

And to my GM. I accept, with reluctance, his NEW ruling ;-) One shot = One maneuver + One action

You can click on the "Rules Questions" at the bottom to get a ruling from the staff. They've been quite good at answering these types of questions in the past, or adding them to the FAQ as appropriate.

Thanks Lexicanum I did what you sugested and got a quick answer, I post it below for reference.

Greetings Paul -

Thank you for your question. I will add this to the FAQ.

> How many actions does it take to fire a bow?

A longbow or shortbow can be drawn and fired within the space of a single action, often represented by the use of a single Ranged action card.

The Manage Equipment manoeuvre listed in the WFRP rulebook deals specifically with initially preparing the weapon for use:

> Draw, sheathe, ready, or load a weapon. This manoeuvre covers the basic manipulations of most weapons, such as drawing a sword from its scabbard, stringing and preparing a longbow, or pulling the lever on a crossbow and loading a new bolt. Some weapons have a special quality requiring a manoeuvre to ready it before it can be used in combat.

Is the bow ready for use at the beginning of the combat? If it's still on the PCs back, or unstrung, he'll need to use a manoeuvre to get his bow ready. If he already has the bow out, strung, and a quiver of arrows accessible and on-hand, he's set and ready for action.

The Reload quality for certain ranged weapons connotes the additional effort required to repeatedly use that item over the course of an extended encounter.

Cheers,

Jay

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Jay Little
Senior RPG Developer
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Fantasy Flight Games