2 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Scorpion vs Lion

Scorpion buys Rumormonger and increases their bid from 5 to 6

Lion used contingency plans to reduce their honor bid from 1 to 0 and then plays WotCh. (Net 12 honor gain)

Is being 1 point away from an honor victory worth that large of a hand disadvantage?

Yes. Absolutely. All it takes is one venerable historian or honored general and its game over. You don't have to win a conflict and the opponent can take, at most, two provinces on turn one.

With the scenario you have proposed, lion can rely solely on their dynasty deck and does not suffer from the conflict deck disadvantage.

1 hour ago, Doji Hana said:

Yes. Absolutely. All it takes is one venerable historian or honored general and its game over. You don't have to win a conflict and the opponent can take, at most, two provinces on turn one.

With the scenario you have proposed, lion can rely solely on their dynasty deck and does not suffer from the conflict deck disadvantage.

Instead they are relying on extremely bad okay and a very specific set of circumstances. They might be able to get away with a low bid and a WotCh every once in awhile but that means packing 6 cards that effectively do nothing to help win conflicts. Playing at a board, fate and card disadvantage is likely not something you can expect to be able to ride to victory very often.

Jigoku help you if you get WotCh countered.....down 7 cards and a having a bad board is likely going to lose you a game real quick.

5 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

I have as much experience in the game than you. It's been out for only two months

But yes, I play Venerable Historian. The one card I have much difficulties including is the Lion Prise Brawler. He is good, but with a fate cost of 3, I always think he'll slow me down, especially since I already have 3 other characters with a fate cost of 3+ (spiritcaller, honored general and Toturi...and I'm thinking of somehow ditching Toturi).

I'm weird that way.

Interesting. That's very different from the deck my friend usually plays. Lion's Pride Brawler is possibly their best troop, helping stomp down any resistance or counter-attack as well as enabling courtier-shenanigans. Then again, his deck is mostly combo shenanigans with Charge, Spiritcaller, and For Greater Glory, so that explains why he needs his conflict hand so full. Maybe most lion decks bid lower and do less cost-cheaty stuff.

I think once the Imperial Cycle is complete, the new Way Of and the Windswept Yurt out of Unicorn with Crab as splash for 3x Rebuild and 2x Levy are huge.

An incredibly impossible scenario (luck and requires a not smart opponent) but:

Turn 1 Dynasty: 3x Windswept Yurt

Turn 1 Conflict: 3x Rebuild, 1x Levy

Sac all 3 yurts, +6 honor (total 16) rebuild all three yurts and sac again, another +6 honor (total 22)

Levy for +1 honor total 23.

Win Air, total 25.

The Way Of becomes an additional buffer there to give you a chance to gain +4 honor if you opponent doesn't see it coming (say yurts don't show til turn 2)

3 hours ago, Vutall said:

I think once the Imperial Cycle is complete, the new Way Of and the Windswept Yurt out of Unicorn with Crab as splash for 3x Rebuild and 2x Levy are huge.

An incredibly impossible scenario (luck and requires a not smart opponent) but:

Turn 1 Dynasty: 3x Windswept Yurt

Turn 1 Conflict: 3x Rebuild, 1x Levy

Sac all 3 yurts, +6 honor (total 16) rebuild all three yurts and sac again, another +6 honor (total 22)

Levy for +1 honor total 23.

Win Air, total 25.

The Way Of becomes an additional buffer there to give you a chance to gain +4 honor if you opponent doesn't see it coming (say yurts don't show til turn 2)

Gotta be careful with this one, though. You're giving your opponent 12 honor in this scenario as well.

Plus, if you've gained much of that honor before you play Levy. it would indeed take a very poor opponent for them to choose giving you honor from Levy.

Yes it is possible to win by honor in turn 1.

But I dont think we will see this happening too much. Many decks will run at least one copy of the way card as a meta against dishonor.

It is one of the more interesting cards released, cause in core are very commom the "always bid 4-5 in turn one". At least in competitive, this tends to change, maybe the most usual will be a 3. Experienced players will certainly consider it when bidding.

Just by its existence this card already changed the game. I think we've found the best target for counters.

11 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Instead they are relying on extremely bad okay and a very specific set of circumstances. They might be able to get away with a low bid and a WotCh every once in awhile but that means packing 6 cards that effectively do nothing to help win conflicts. Playing at a board, fate and card disadvantage is likely not something you can expect to be able to ride to victory very often.

Jigoku help you if you get WotCh countered.....down 7 cards and a having a bad board is likely going to lose you a game real quick.

Agreed. It is very dangerous and many things can go wrong. However, you asked about a specific scenario in which lion successfully gained 12 honor. If the lion was successful, as you propose, then I stand by my assertion that it is absolutely worth it. Personally, I would not chance it, but I could see a dedicated honor player taking the risk.

We played a few proxy games and the new commander(that draws cards) with the WotChr really make the honor victory for Lion a thing. Honor running Lion can get to 20 honor quite easily even without them so you do not need to get the huge 8 or 10 WotChr even a six can seal the deal.

Guys,

Most players are not going for the big Card Draw on turn one. In my area the players that I know go for no more than 2.

But winning by Honor is still possible it just going to take you a bit longer than the first turn.

But remember one thing a Conflict deck built around Honor Winning is going to have some problems in Conflicts.

There are so many factors that need to be taken into account.

Your card draw

Your cards in Provinces

Your opponent's cards in draw and in Provinces.

Even being able to change out your initial cards might not be enough.

Plus as the new cards come out everything changes.

I think one of the key things to make WofCh work is going to be card denial and card burn on your opponent. The more you can force them to discard and remove additional card draw options, the better your odds of forcing them to bid higher to refill their hand. Of course, you'll need to boost your own draw engine so you can afford to bid low.

Duels also help. You can bully duel or forfeit one for honor.

I've tested WotC yesterday, Lion x Scorpion, and used in first turn bidding 1 against 5.

I was the first player, played Pride Brawler with 2 fates and passed. My opponent played a Cloud the Mind on my char. So I attacked and break the province, but with just 4 cards in hand I was very vulnerable and suffered 2 unnoposed attacks, and just didnt lost my 2nd province because it was Pilgrimage, and my opponent didnt draw any MIL buff. I ended winning by province break, 4-3.

Winning by honor against Scorpion is almost impossible, but I was never threatened by dishonor too. I think I was more to loose the game than win using it in first turn against scorpion, I'll try against other clans and see what happen. Anyway, using it on first turn seems very risky at all, and if is possible to get a counter when playing I will never do that in a competitive game.