32 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Getting "fixes" just right seems to be a tricky issue for FFG, as the vast majority of their "fixes" to bring under-used ships or upgrade types up to a competitive level seem to either fall flat without saving the ship or seem to completely reskew the meta and require eventual nerfs:

• People are whining Arc-Dodgers can't beat turrets! SOLUTION : Autothrusters and Palpatine , and arc-dodgers go on to drive turrets entirely out of the meta and Palp Aces dominate the competitive scene (eventual nerf to Palp)
• People are whining that X-Wings are terrible! SOLUTION : Integrated Astromech , and X-Wings except Biggs are still terrible because IA is garbage
• People are whining Ordnance are no good! SOLUTION : Extra Munitions, Guidance Chips, Aggromech, and Double-Torp platforms that can take Deadeye like the Contracted Scout , and lo and behold Triple Scout alpha strikes dominate the competitive scene (Eventual Nerf to Deadeye, Aggromech, and Jumpmasters)
• People are whining TIE/Defenders are no good! SOLUTION : X7 and Ryad , and lo and behold Defenders take over the meta (Eventual Nerf to X7)
• People are whining Bombs are no good! SOLUTION : AdvSLAM, Sabine, Clusters, Bomblet, Cad Bane, Scurrg, and bombs go on to drive agility-dependent ships out of the meta (NERF to Genius and AdvSLAM, so far)

I can't think of a "fix" that didn't either fall flat and fail to fix the ship in question or was an egregious over-correction that ends up having to be reigned in with errata. Maybe the A-Wing fixes back during Rebel Aces? Granted, the A-Wing is a trash ship by today's standards, but around the time of the aces-pack it seemed to be a decent ship that didn't take over the meta game like a virus -- exactly what you want from a ship. The effort to make under-used upgrade types better through power-creeped new options seems to frequently blow-up in FFG's face like some cartoon hillybilly shotgun. Bomblet Generator is absurdly over-powered compared to the other "drop on reveal" style of bombs. Forum consensus seems to be that Cruise Missiles and Harpoon Missiles are complete replacements for other missile types. Time will tell how these new missiles impact the meta, and will reveal whether or not the Vaksai and the Star Viper titles fare.

At this point, I am starting to think a 2nd edition is necessary. Or some sort of models stay but cards rotate out system to replace it. As far as Balance goes I know better than to expect every pilot and upgrade card to be good (all though if you are going to do is nerf the top it might be a good idea to QoL the bottom just a bit). But if all factions have a competitive build that should be 1st priority, next is that there is a diversity of play styles, 3rd and final is every model has a useful purpose. But there are way too many on forum and reddit that want only their faction, their models and their playstyles, looking at you TIE Interceptor pilots claiming to be disciples of Soontir Fel, More like incarnations of Fel's Wrath arc dodging ozzel incompetence nerf hearding scum.

On 10/27/2017 at 10:27 AM, AtomicFryingPan said:

Those same players who left will leave again once people find the new power lists and start running them again. There is still no reason to fly like 90% of the ships in this game.

And there never will be, just based on the math. We're up to what c. 50 ships? So 15 per faction? You need 2-3 ships in today's meta. That means you don't need 80% of the ships even if they were all equal, and they are not, so some people will only fly the best. The meta itself ruins a ship's opportunities, simply because you only need the best of the best. And if you netlist, you're not building a list for fun jank, you're building a list to win.

And don't tell me FFG needs to do better at making them all balanced because that is a utopian pipe dream. So either embrace the power rotation of the meta, quit, or play jank.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

And don't tell me FFG needs to do better at making them all balanced because that is a utopian pipe dream. So either embrace the power rotation of the meta, quit, or play jank.

In a game that uses dice to add variance to stats, and uses points to limit list design, you cant get absolute balance, its impossible. ****, even in chess the player going first has an edge, its the reality of any game, one player will always have an edge. It's how much of an edge the game design allows that's the issue.

However, the dice adding variance, and the points limiting list design, CAN bring an approximate balance across the board. 100 points of TIEs should be roughly on par with 100 points of jumpmasters, while 100 points of jumpmasters should be roughly on par with 100 points of X-Wings, meaning 100 points of X-Wings should be on par with 100 points of TIEs. This same principal should apply to whatever ships you want, 100 points should be roughly on par with 100 points. The slight balance discrepancy is offset by dice variation and player skill. The limits set through points limit the inclusion of broken combinations.

FFG refusing to adjust point values is the single biggest problem with balance . X-wings aren't good enough? Lower them a point or two. Biggs too good? Raise him a few points. Jumpmasters vastly under costed? Vastly raise its points. The TIE Fighter and X-Wing have been out for 5 years, and in all that time, neither has been brought up to the same standard that new ships are held to.

The lack of balance is ABSOLUTELY on the shoulders of FFG. I get it, people don't want to lug around or memorize a stack of FAQs, well people don't want a game that's so horribly off kilter either.

It's time the developers admit that they have let things get out of hand, put a hold on any and all releases, and introduce a new game, Star Wars: Squadrons. A 2.0 evolution of X-Wing miniatures (that also brings the name in line with the rest of their Star Wars franchise.) Release 2 new intro boxes, 1 OT (with updated paint jobs, because light grey TIEs that don't look splotchy please) and 1 NT. Release 3 new upgrade kits, one for each faction, with new dials and cards for all previous releases for that faction. This should also allow distribution of the new maneuvers and keywords to old ships where needed. Going forward all re-releases of ships would contain the new edition cards, tokens, and dials. For this release, introduce a new squadron building app where all new updates and releases will be available. On the website, a PDF generator will provide all cards, with any potential changes through errata, for free and will be tournament legal.

All games eventually get overhauls, X-Wing is a few releases past that point.

On 10/27/2017 at 7:20 AM, BlodVargarna said:

I haven’t heard any Rebels whine. Some Scum whine, but I guess there gotta be some Imp crowing. :-(

Maybe the Imp crowing won’t be as insufferable as their whining when x/7 and Palp got nerfed.

It will probably return to wining when they see the next major tournament results.

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

It will probably return to wining when they see the next major tournament results.

Wine (2) |wʌɪn| verb [ no obj. ] W. Indian dance with rhythmic gyratory movements of the pelvic region

As an imperial player, I can get behind the idea of doing post-tournament victory dances after November 6th

15 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

I realize all this, I checked it out when it first was published. I did not mean by my statement that it was crap, or anything similar; but as primarily a tournament player, home brewed rules is something that I tend to avoid like the plague.

if I ever find myself somewhere where players are amenable to an Xwing campaign, I would not mind trying these at all. Sadly, as I've stated, Xwing is something I'm finding just not agreeable lately. I still have hopes, tough, we will see.

Just to ensure I understand: You only play tournament X-wing. You aren't having fun doing that. Is that right? Seems like one easy fix is to try different kinds beyond tournament. Each their own, though.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Just to ensure I understand: You only play tournament X-wing. You aren't having fun doing that. Is that right? Seems like one easy fix is to try different kinds beyond tournament. Each their own, though.

I only play tournament 'insert name of game', really, altough I do play casual games as well.

I stopped playing Xwing way back when Armada came out, because Star Destroyers. As Xwing slowly descended into madness, I kept an eye on these boards, and on the local scene. Was not encouraged by what I saw.

I would love to play an extended campaign...but this is far easier said than done, as finding fellow players willing to commit to regular play is a huge challenge, at least where I am located at. I am seeing, however, signs of a shift towards some Epic scale play here, which encourages me to participate. We will see how it goes.

On 10/27/2017 at 10:27 AM, AtomicFryingPan said:

Those same players who left will leave again once people find the new power lists and start running them again. There is still no reason to fly like 90% of the ships in this game.

Except for, you know, flying the ships you love because you love em competitiveness be damned.

On 10/27/2017 at 10:27 AM, AtomicFryingPan said:

Those same players who left will leave again once people find the new power lists and start running them again. There is still no reason to fly like 90% of the ships in this game.

Double post. Ignore this one.

18 hours ago, Jadotch said:

There will always be a few top meta lists. There is no stopping this, it is the point system itself that will lead to this problem.

The fact that there are top lists, or top ships, isn't the problem.

Its when the distance between the top ships and the chaff is so large that there is a problem. With proper balance work, the deviation in power of the top ships compared to the mean shouldn't be too drastic. When it is small'ish, good piloting (and a little luck) can allow for the "average" ships to be flown and win. When the difference is extreme, it renders the rest of the ships as unplayable.

Of course, some folks will see any difference as being "unplayable", however in practice I believe others will prove this out on the tabletop.

1 hour ago, Darth Lupine said:

I stopped playing Xwing way back when Armada came out, because Star Destroyers. As Xwing slowly descended into madness, I kept an eye on these boards, and on the local scene. Was not encouraged by what I saw.

Finally, something I can get behind.

8 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

FFG refusing to adjust point values is the single biggest problem with balance . X-wings aren't good enough? Lower them a point or two. Biggs too good? Raise him a few points. Jumpmasters vastly under costed? Vastly raise its points. The TIE Fighter and X-Wing have been out for 5 years, and in all that time, neither has been brought up to the same standard that new ships are held to.

The lack of balance is ABSOLUTELY on the shoulders of FFG. I get it, people don't want to lug around or memorize a stack of FAQs, well people don't want a game that's so horribly off kilter either.

But even point values are relative to the state of the game. TIE fighters were fine at 12 points in wave 1, but now, what they need to be 10 to get more on the table? B-Wings were fine at the time of BBBBZ, but now they are too much for what they can do. So what happens with all that? Each wave all the ships get reassigned point values relative to the current state of the game?? That's probably worse than errata.

XWM is not off kilter, it's just not perfectly balanced. And the only reason people notice it so much is because they only focus on meta.

Take Jenga. You have a bunch of blocks in a tower. It all works together. The meta is the few blocks that can be very obviously plucked from the tower without losing the game. If you add more blocks, the "safe" blocks change, just like the meta changes. The reason the other blocks are "useless" is simply because in that moment they are not the safe blocks to pull, and that will change every time a block is pulled, just like the meta will change every time a wave is released. But the only time all the blocks are going to be equally balanced is when they are all lying on the floor. And that's isn't a game at all.

52 minutes ago, Warlon said:

Except for, you know, flying the ships you love because you love em competitiveness be damned.

^This is the real solution.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

But even point values are relative to the state of the game. TIE fighters were fine at 12 points in wave 1, but now, what they need to be 10 to get more on the table? B-Wings were fine at the time of BBBBZ, but now they are too much for what they can do. So what happens with all that? Each wave all the ships get reassigned point values relative to the current state of the game?? That's probably worse than errata.

It doesn't need to be every wave, that's just hyperbole, but maybe every year they revisit the old ships (or better yet, just didn't base their sales on powercreep.) If that's what it takes to make the TIE competitive, a points drop, then yes. If the B-Wing needs a point drop, yes! Or, and here's a wild and crazy idea, they stop with the obvious faction bias and powercreep, then the game would be far more enjoyable to far more people and result in far fewer FAQs and Errata.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

XWM is not off kilter, it's just not perfectly balanced. And the only reason people notice it so much is because they only focus on meta.

Take Jenga. You have a bunch of blocks in a tower. It all works together. The meta is the few blocks that can be very obviously plucked from the tower without losing the game. If you add more blocks, the "safe" blocks change, just like the meta changes. The reason the other blocks are "useless" is simply because in that moment they are not the safe blocks to pull, and that will change every time a block is pulled, just like the meta will change every time a wave is released. But the only time all the blocks are going to be equally balanced is when they are all lying on the floor. And that's isn't a game at all.

If you think XWM isn't off kilter, you haven't paid attention to the meta in the last year or 2. If the power imbalance currently existing in the game is acceptable to you, your standards are FAR to low. Comparing this to Jenga is a HORRIBLE example, because the game Jenga as a whole, IS balanced, each player begins the game on equal footing (the first player having a very slight advantage) the game then goes, turn by turn with the better player making the better decisions and using skill to gently remove blocks. All players had equal standing at the beginning, and wins exclusively through skill. Your example, proves my point!

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

10 hours ago, Warlon said:

Except for, you know, flying the ships you love because you love em competitiveness be damned.

^This is the real solution.

Why? Why cant the solution be that all ships are made approximately balanced? Why is it so acceptable to so many on these forums that the Jumpmaster be SO far ahead of an X-Wing? Why is it that asking for a balanced game is so wildly unacceptable to you? Why are so many happy just waiting for a "fix" to a ship to come out in the way of a purchase, rather than expect them to design the game to be balanced on initial purchase? Why is it seen as whining that people want their iconic Star Wars ships to be good enough to run competitively? Why are you willing to just give FFG a pass when they state, on the record, that because swarms are dead, there's nothing wrong with a new anti-swarm card to kick em when they're down? Or when they state, that because one pilot of a ship is good, so all the ships are good? You and the rest who blindly defend them DO realize, the developers aren't putting you on their Holiday gift list for standing up for them on the interwebz right?

1 hour ago, Gadgetron said:

Or, and here's a wild and crazy idea, they stop with the obvious faction bias and powercreep, then the game would be far more enjoyable to far more people and result in far fewer FAQs and Errata.

I don't know about you, but that faq pretty much cleared the air about any alleged faction bias.

Quote

Why cant the solution be that all ships are made approximately balanced? Why is it so acceptable to so many on these forums that the Jumpmaster be SO far ahead of an X-Wing? Why is it that asking for a balanced game is so wildly unacceptable to you? Why are so many happy just waiting for a "fix" to a ship to come out in the way of a purchase, rather than expect them to design the game to be balanced on initial purchase?

Because no amount of game testing can deliver a balanced game. You cannot possibly test every permutation. Admittedly, some of what has escaped is bad, but it could be much much worse.

Also, you cannot simultaneously keep the old ships 100% as relevant as they were on release day while making new ships that are different enough to merit any use at all, while keeping the game fresh with added mechanics. Even if raw power creep didn't happen, mechanics creep would be and is a thing.

The only way to fix old ships is with new cards to change them up again. That's what ace packs have done before. That's how new fixes will arrive to us in the future.

I just hope we can get some good mechanics creep based fixes added to the old ships. Tie bombers and punishers that can reload, maybe a mechanic to let A-wings and interceptors add talon rolls to their options...

1 hour ago, Gadgetron said:

It doesn't need to be every wave, that's just hyperbole.

If you think XWM isn't off kilter, you haven't paid attention to the meta in the last year or 2. If the power imbalance currently existing in the game is acceptable to you, your standards are FAR to low.

Comparing this to Jenga is a HORRIBLE example, because the game Jenga as a whole, IS balanced, each player begins the game on equal footing (the first player having a very slight advantage) the game then goes, turn by turn with the better player making the better decisions and using skill to gently remove blocks. All players had equal standing at the beginning, and wins exclusively through skill. Your example, proves my point!

Why? Why cant the solution be that all ships are made approximately balanced? Why is it so acceptable to so many on these forums that the Jumpmaster be SO far ahead of an X-Wing? Why is it that asking for a balanced game is so wildly unacceptable to you?

Errata is errata. Changing the point values of the base ships over and over again is just as poor as solution as what is happening now, or maybe worse, because as others have pointed out old lists may become illegal based on point values. In fact, IMHO, I'd rather see the current tactic of titles for the ships being used to alter their specs. Then, players have options to kit ships out in different ways at different point costs. The only downside is that every base ship begins to need obligatory Titles and Mods to play well.

Yeah, I don't play the meta. You should try it some time. The game gets better immediately.

Comparing XWM as a game to a drinking game with blocks as a game is a horrible example. It was a simile. The blocks are x-wing ships. The ones that are easy to pull are meta. The rest of the still standing tower are the other perfectly fine ships that no one will play because they are trickier to extract and win. The tower is balanced despite the fact that some players will refuse to play if they aren't allowed to pull out the easy blocks only, and then complain the whole game is **** because it might be harder to win pulling out a tougher block.

And a balanced game isn't wildly unacceptable; it's wildly unrealistic. See below.

28 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Because no amount of game testing can deliver a balanced game.

You cannot possibly test every permutation.

Also, you cannot simultaneously keep the old ships 100% as relevant as they were on release day while making new ships that are different enough to merit any use at all.

The only way to fix old ships is with new cards to change them up again.

HUZZAH!! Truer words have never been written.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

I don't know about you, but that faq pretty much cleared the air about any alleged faction bias.

I wish.

While true, the jumpmaster and Biggs nerfs proved that FFG is not overly enthused about absolute domination by rebels and scum, but in their ship design there are several discrepancies towards imperials. Lack of upgrade variety and availability, and things like the aggressor not having a generic ept while the scurrg has.

How do you explain the systematic short end of the stick imperial ship design seems to receive, more than enough times to prove its no accident.

14 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

How do you explain the systematic short end of the stick imperial ship design seems to receive, more than enough times to prove its no accident.

We can lay claim to the only fan-driven addition to the game. I also have hope that the Silencer adds some oomph back.

Hot cocoa and a hug after every mission

15 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

We can lay claim to the only fan-driven addition to the game. I also have hope that the Silencer adds some oomph back.

Hot cocoa and a hug after every mission

I'm sorry, is the Interceptor's front on the bottom in that picture?!

15 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I also have hope that the Silencer adds some oomph back

No Gunboat?

It's got all the upgrade variety and generic epts anyone could wish for!

2 minutes ago, Warlon said:

I'm sorry, is the Interceptor's front on the bottom in that picture?!

Maybe it's the hatch. Strange silhouette though.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

No Gunboat?

It's got all the upgrade variety and generic epts anyone could wish for!

I haven't been one of those Imperial Gunboat enthusiasts that treat it like the 2nd coming of Palpatine, but I really am excited for this ship.

As you say, there's a lot of upgrade variety, etc. that gives me a lot of hope for not just the empire, but for the health of the game in general.

Oh it's no second palp. I'm sure most of the enthusiasm is nostalgia for the game

Still, it is a very unique ship. The xg has an interesting mix of potent alpha + sustained offense and the OS can fire after SLAMing (xg can but that hard point restriction is too tough to work around)

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Oh it's no second palp. I'm sure most of the enthusiasm is nostalgia for the game

Still, it is a very unique ship. The xg has an interesting mix of potent alpha + sustained offense and the OS can fire after SLAMing (xg can but that hard point restriction is too tough to work around)

And for the first time in forever, I feel that maybe I shouldn't put all upgrades I can on a ship. weird feeling that now I have empty slots.

31 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Oh it's no second palp. I'm sure most of the enthusiasm is nostalgia for the game

Still, it is a very unique ship. The xg has an interesting mix of potent alpha + sustained offense and the OS can fire after SLAMing (xg can but that hard point restriction is too tough to work around)

Telling ya, OS title, Homing Missiles, Adv. SLAM and PTL. Fire missiles every round and still have rerolls.

32 minutes ago, Warlon said:

Telling ya, OS title, Homing Missiles, Adv. SLAM and PTL. Fire missiles every round and still have rerolls.

Rho Your Boats is better, IMO.

Expertise and Harpoons instead.

36 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Rho Your Boats is better, IMO.

Expertise and Harpoons instead.

need to do a triple OS list

or "Rho Rho Rho your boat"

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

need to do a triple OS list

or "Rho Rho Rho your boat"

Well yeah, I made that list. lol

I shortened the name because it was too long. Rho Rho Rho Your Boats. All 3 with Expertise, title, Harpoons, AdvSlam.