Specifically, when do triggers related to destruction resolve, when ships are kept in play due to e.g. triggered events not yet having resolved, or the Simultaneous Fire Rule?

Some elements of the rules and FAQ seem to treat destruction and removal as synonymous, i.e. a ship is not destroyed until it is removed.

Others seem to treat them as separate events - destruction occurs when damage cards=hull value, and removal occurs when all triggers which were in play when the ship was destroyed are resolved, up to and including Simultaneous Fire.

This is going to be a big deal coming up because of Harpoon Missiles...

For a concrete example: Side A Has Vader and Quickdraw, and they both have Harpoon Missiles. Side B has Talonbane and Viktor Hel, and they both have Dead Man's Switches. All are PS9 thanks to VI on Viktor.

Side A has init.

Vader shoots Viktor and tags him with Harpooned. Then QD shoots Viktor and deals enough cards to destory him, but tags him with a second Harpooned.

What happens next? Does the first Harpooned resolve now, when Viktor gets enough cards to be destroyed? Or does it resolve after Viktor and TBC have both had their opportunity to fire? What if the target is Valen, and he can boost away form his allies or towards his enemies after suffering the attack that dealt him 2 damage cards? What if it's Tel?

Mostly this won't make a LOT of difference, but in some cases it could make a huge amount, e.g. if someone has Major Hull Breach and the damage from an ally's Harpooned blinds them, or if someone has an After Attacking/Defending trigger that lets them change range such that the Harpooned goes off in range of enemies.

The rules are unclear on this. The errated rulebook for Simultaenous Fire indicates that destruction is delayed until after Sim Fire. But Tel Treura and Dead Man's Switch, both triggered when you (would be/are) destroyed, are FAQed to resolve during the Deal Damage substep of the timing chart, and the timing chart indicates that the destruction of a ship and its removal are separate and distinct events - one takes place at step 7 - deal damage, and the other at step 10, remove destroyed ships.

It seems like there are two opinions on this among the rule writers - one says that destruction and removal are synonymous - ships are only destroyed when they're removed, and only removed when they're destroyed. The other says that destruction is what happens when you get damage cards to equal your hull, and removal can potentially happen much later, meaning that ships can be in play and doing things whilst already destroyed.

I think some changes are required so that only one of those positions appears in the rules.

For a better example:

Side A had Backdraft and Kath, and has init. Side B has Tel.

Backdraft shoots Tel and deals him his 5th card.

Tel's FAQ says that his ability takes place right now. He discards all 5 cards, deals 4 new ones. Kath then shoots him, and deals another damage card to him, he stays in play due to SAR, shoots, and is taken off the board.

The SAR says he 'is not destroyed' until after he's shot due to SAR. Which would imply that his ability doesn't trigger until after his SAR shot has resolved. So Kath can shoot him, deal him 3 more damage, then he shoots back and is destroyed. His destruction triggers his ability, and he stays alive.

Both cases can't be true.

Or equally, Side A has Viktor, side B has Adaptability Valen, and A has init. Valen has Harpooned, and Viktor deals him his second damage card. Can Valen boost into range 1 of Viktor before the Harpooned damage goes off due to his destruction?

What if B has init? Or doesn't it matter? Tel's FAQ indicates that it doesn't matter - the damage from Harpooned would happen at step 7, well before Valen could boost. The SAR suggests it does; Valen isn't destroyed until after he's shot, which gives him plenty of time to boost into R1.

I think we need a definition for the terms 'removed' and 'destroyed', and when each happens in relation to the attack sequence.

I'd nominate that 'destroyed' happens at step 7, and 'removed' happens at step 10.

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

For a better example:

Side A had Backdraft and Kath, and has init. Side B has Tel.

Backdraft shoots Tel and deals him his 5th card.

Tel's FAQ says that his ability takes place right now. He discards all 5 cards, deals 4 new ones. Kath then shoots him, and deals another damage card to him, he stays in play due to SAR, shoots, and is taken off the board.

The SAR says he 'is not destroyed' until after he's shot due to SAR. Which would imply that his ability doesn't trigger until after his SAR shot has resolved. So Kath can shoot him, deal him 3 more damage, then he shoots back and is destroyed. His destruction triggers his ability, and he stays alive.

Both cases can't be true.

Or equally, Side A has Viktor, side B has Adaptability Valen, and A has init. Valen has Harpooned, and Viktor deals him his second damage card. Can Valen boost into range 1 of Viktor before the Harpooned damage goes off due to his destruction?

What if B has init? Or doesn't it matter? Tel's FAQ indicates that it doesn't matter - the damage from Harpooned would happen at step 7, well before Valen could boost. The SAR suggests it does; Valen isn't destroyed until after he's shot, which gives him plenty of time to boost into R1.

I think we need a definition for the terms 'removed' and 'destroyed', and when each happens in relation to the attack sequence.

I'd nominate that 'destroyed' happens at step 7, and 'removed' happens at step 10.

I think this is an example of more than one person writing the rules and FAQ. The SAR should've been worded "removed" rather than "destroyed".

In your example, Backdraft kills Tel, Tel resurrects and Kath kills him a second time. Tel returns fire and is removed. Tel isn't removed until he's had an opportunity to shoot per the SAR.

I second your nomination.