In my area, the pre-nerf-Phantom-like arc-dodging capability of PS10 Nym, combined with the desire to limit him to throwing only his 2 bomb dice against you before you shot and not add 2-6 more from his weapons, had already lead to a flood of Quickdraw/Backdraft/Vader/Chiraneau/Dengar with VI/Adaptability.

With the release of Harpoon Missiles, many of those already-popular ships have gained triple-U-boat levels of alpha strike punch, with the added bonus that they do it before most pilots ever printed can shoot back. They're no longer mostly a hard counter to Nym. They're also amazing at removing 25-33% of your opponent's ships from the board before they've done anything.

Essentially, it feels like there are only three effective values for PS right now: 11, 10, and "lower". Put a pilot on the board who's a 7 or a 9 and you've wasted half a dozen squad points. Give him Juke or PtL and you waste even more. Listbuilding looks really restricted in the post-Guns meta. If a ship doesn't have at least 9 health, at least 8 PS + EPT, or a counterattack, you can't rely on it even shooting once. The Imperial 4-mini-ace archetype looks dead -- after the first round of combat, you'll have the same number of ships as your opponent, except yours have less health and shoot last. Swarms, which were the practical solution in previous waves to lists that can reliably focus-fire down key individual targets, look to be suicide this time around due to all that AoE harpoon damage. What's left? Flat pancakes, joining what you can't beat, and...?

1. blockers.

Doesn't matter what their ps is, unless they are giving it up for other ept shenanigans or have adv sensors (see the sf's) their dial is set at the start of the round. Know the dials, know the ranges, have something cheap or bump happy there forcing choices between bad moves and target locks.

2. Swarm tactics.

so you have to watch aoe, that just makes swarms challenging and a more time consuming. You need to set up different attack vectors instead of just a pinwheel Schroeder's dengar

3. If you can't beat em, join em!!

Already came up with a 3 Black sun ace + Ndru list a while back that all have deadeye, harpoons and all bar 1 has scavenger crane. Dodging 1 arc is easy, dodging all the arc's besides the sacrificial sap that doesn't have the crane will be a lot harder. and you get to reload when you get kills.......

I'm not sure how competitive list building can be much narrower than it has been in the last few months. Alpha strikes, particularly of the Imperial variety, are pretty strong but most of the missile carriers sacrifice defence for that alpha strike, which means if you have good, consistent offence and a bit of survivability you have a good chance of winning. Ships like HLC Dash are pretty good, backed up by your own missile Miranda or a tanky Poe. A good HLC volley against a tokenless Vader can do a lot of damage and the damage output of a lot of the alpha strike lists drops off quite a bit after the missiles.

I actually think Brobots might do well against it too. They have enough shields and defence dice to absorb some missile fire and hit really hard. Their big-base boost also allows them to close the distance to the attacker very quickly to shut down missiles at range 1 if they want, before slooping behind for some follow-up shots. We might also see more swarm-lite style lists. 3-4 ships that don't necessarily have to fly close together would possible work. Again, you're looking to take advantage of the extreme drop-off in offense once those missiles are spent and then also be able to block.

The meta's a bit up in the air at the moment so it remains to be seen if alpha strike lists will rise to the top. I'm not so sure they will as I think consistency might be an issue with them.

43 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

Essentially, it feels like there are only three effective values for PS right now: 11, 10, and "lower". Put a pilot on the board who's a 7 or a 9 and you've wasted half a dozen squad points. Give him Juke or PtL and you waste even more. Listbuilding looks really restricted in the post-Guns meta. If a ship doesn't have at least 9 health, at least 8 PS + EPT, or a counterattack, you can't rely on it even shooting once. The Imperial 4-mini-ace archetype looks dead -- after the first round of combat, you'll have the same number of ships as your opponent, except yours have less health and shoot last. Swarms, which were the practical solution in previous waves to lists that can reliably focus-fire down key individual targets, look to be suicide this time around due to all that AoE harpoon damage. What's left? Flat pancakes, joining what you can't beat, and...?

I've played a Ghost + Dash against 4 cruise missiles (1 on Vader). It's very easy to avoid the missiles - you force a joust. bombs are also a great counter.

If you do a 3-straight on the firts turn and a 4-straight the next there's pretty much nothing they can do to get those missiles off on you.

I think a key point to note is that the high PS Imperial alpha strike lists were a direct response to Nym. PS 11 is a lot less vital if you're not trying to deal with a PS 10 ship on a regular basis, and opens up your EPT slot for other, better, options.

This isn't to say that the Imperial alpha strike archetype is going to suddenly disappear, but I can see PS 9/10 becoming much more the norm rather than 10/11 as you're trying to out PS Dash and Miranda, not Nym. (Or at least not as much Nym.)

Out PSing Nym becomes a lot less important when he can't bomb after moving as usefully, too.

I suspect the PS race will cool significantly now, and we'll see Imperials taking useful EPTs instead of just VI.

Intense Vader gon gitchu

51 minutes ago, Astech said:

I've played a Ghost + Dash against 4 cruise missiles (1 on Vader). It's very easy to avoid the missiles - you force a joust. bombs are also a great counter.

If you do a 3-straight on the firts turn and a 4-straight the next there's pretty much nothing they can do to get those missiles off on you.

This is where the difference between the speed-dependant Cruise Missiles and Harpoon Missiles comes in. It's much easier to range control to get your missiles away if you've got your full dial available to you, rather than just your speed 3+ moves. I'm going to be tweaking my Imperial alpha list for just this reason, as the Cruise Missiles were proving a bit tricky...

Harpoon missiles will be a matter of using range to blow up in their face

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I suspect the PS race will cool significantly now

This to I believe.

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Harpoon missiles will be a matter of using range to blow up in their face

Harpoon Missiles will be a matter of firing them and triggering them in the same combat phase

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Harpoon missiles will be a matter of using range to blow up in their face

Harpoon Missiles will be a matter of firing them and triggering them in the same combat phase

If you are worried about any sort of target lock, use Poe/Black One/Expert handling/Vectored thrusters and bring Ahsoka with recon specialist. Start of the combat phase: do a barrel roll and two target locks disappear.

Some thoughts for your specific problem:

• Autothrusters
• Range Control
• Counter Measures
• Glitterstim
• Black One
• Biggs
• Lowhrick
• Selflessness
• Any ship with 3 Green Dice, Tokens, and 1 of the cards above saved for defense

Surely somewhere below is a list or 2 that has a chance to deal with PS10+ Low Health One Trick Aces without Action Efficiency, Autothrusters, and Defense Token Stacks.

This is a cobbled together made up list....I have no idea what the Meta is going to be....

Imperial Archetypes:

• RAC + Ace
• Palp Shuttle + 2x Ace
• 3x Missile PS10+
• 3x Small Ship ( Large # of variations )
• 3x Defenders
• Palp Shuttle + 2x Defenders
• 4x TLT
• 5x TAPs with Missiles

Rebel Archetypes:

• 3-4x Wookie Wagons
• Kanan/Biggs or Low
• Rey/Poe
• Dash/Poe
• Miranda/Biggs/Low
• Dash/Miranda
• Dash/Nym
• 2x VCX + 1 TLT Y Wing
• FSR2
• BBBBZ
• 4x TLT
• 6x Z-95s with Missiles

Scum Archetypes:

• Dengar/Nym
• Dengar/Assaj
• Assaj/Ketsu
• Bossk + 2x Scruggs
• Bossk/Ketsu
• Scrugg Alpha Strike
• Assaj + Fenn + Scout
• Dengar + Fenn + Inaldra
• 3x Scum Aces
• Trip Intel Scouts
• 4x TLT
• 6x Z-95s with Missiles

Hard to guess what the meta will look like....certainly not something that can be done only a couple days after the FAQ.

Especially since Guns for Hire was just released and can only guess at how the Gunboat, Silencer, Phantom II, Kimogilia, and new bomber will fit into the equation.

5 hours ago, Astech said:

I've played a Ghost + Dash against 4 cruise missiles (1 on Vader). It's very easy to avoid the missiles - you force a joust. bombs are also a great counter.

If you do a 3-straight on the firts turn and a 4-straight the next there's pretty much nothing they can do to get those missiles off on you.

Cruise missiles have in my experience proved to be a dud.

Harpoons in the other hand will be the only missile people will take.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Harpoon Missiles will be a matter of firing them and triggering them in the same combat phase

with high PS imp aces? complete crapshoot as no one has a native 3 dice+ primary

RAC+Ace or Palp+2 aces might be worth it with harpoons to RAC ability or palp in a crit, alternately with Vader you can fire off one with another ace and trigger it with his advanced targeting computer if you don't need 2 missiles to kill 1 target, or trigger it by killing the target with the second (or third) missile.

10 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

RAC+Ace or Palp+2 aces might be worth it with harpoons to RAC ability or palp in a crit, alternately with Vader you can fire off one with another ace and trigger it with his advanced targeting computer if you don't need 2 missiles to kill 1 target, or trigger it by killing the target with the second (or third) missile.

in this case, you're going to be a LOT less worried about the missile alpha because it's being greatly tempered by far weaker primary weapon attacks

especially RAC as it means, at best, a two ship list

Random thoughts about the new meta:

• TLT Aggressors are better because triple torp scouts are gone. 9 S/H behind 2 Agi and they can shoot torps to PS kill a ship before it can fire made it a tough match up for them. The same reason that 4x TLT Thugs went away, but TLT Aggressors are just better. Better dial, barrel roll, and comparable durability with LWF.
• On that same note, the Stresshog can come back and weaponized stress in general. If Vader wastes his cruise missile trying to get rid of the Stresshog and leaves Bomber-TLT-Miranda unscathed he is going to have a bad time. If you can double stress an EI Miranda, she won't be dropping any Clusters on you on the next round.
• Miranda can still put bombs on your face, she just has to use EI to do it. Good players will wait until they catch a fragile ace in the perfect spot or a fat ship low on health to pull the EI trick to take the ship out in the activation phase. Nym isn't as obnoxious, but he can still drop a bomb at PS10 every round for the entire game.
• The PS race may cool a little with Nym's shenanigans being reigned in.

So if your list can handle being bombed, stressed, and TLT'd while dealing with PS9-10 aces you should be in good shape!

16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

in this case, you're going to be a LOT less worried about the missile alpha because it's being greatly tempered by far weaker primary weapon attacks

especially RAC as it means, at best, a two ship list

RAClo/Vader is still pretty potent for a 2 ship list, though we'll see if the changing meta pushes RAC out a bit, and 2 harpoons plus a palp shuttle is maybe an option moving forward. Alternately with a multi-harpoon list just kill the target with your multiple modded 4 dice attacks that aren't tied to speed in any way and consider the condition a bonus when you can get it to trigger (which still shouldn't be too hard with a follow-up from ATC Vader later if needed or just rolling a natural crit with the sheer number of red dice getting thrown). It's certainly not a foolproof plan and sticking with PS 11 and 10 aces it might be worth it to keep cruise missiles if you can reliably set up the shots, but dropping down to 8/9 with a more useful EPT may be worth it in some cases, and the maneuver to set up firing a harpoon isn't nearly as predictable. I don't think cruise missiles will disappear by any means but harpoons are an option that I'm sure we'll see.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Harpoon missiles will be a matter of using range to blow up in their face

You need your harpooned ship to live into the next turn to accomplish that. Few ships can manage that.

Quote

with high PS imp aces? complete crapshoot as no one has a native 3 dice+ primary

TIE/SF, TIE Defender, and TIE Advanced/x1 w/ATC all shoot 3 dice forward, effectively.

I doubt the upcoming list building meta will be worse than what we have endured before. Now, it might not actually turn out better, but I'm feeling optimistic about it.

14 minutes ago, Quarrel said:

TIE/SF, TIE Defender, and TIE Advanced/x1 w/ATC all shoot 3 dice forward, effectively.

Of those, only the defender triggers gchip crits

You want gchip crit to trigger harpoons with harpoons for a devastating alpha

Defender needs to be TieD or titleless to harpoon

Personally think scum is the go to harpoon faction between SCURRG, vaksai and Kim with DEADEYE

10 hours ago, Ralgon said:

1. blockers.

Doesn't matter what their ps is, unless they are giving it up for other ept shenanigans or have adv sensors (see the sf's) their dial is set at the start of the round. Know the dials, know the ranges, have something cheap or bump happy there forcing choices between bad moves and target locks.

It's difficult to meaningfully block a TIE/SF. 1-straight, 4-straight, 3-bank and 2-sloop (and possibly 2-turn + BR) all give them a shot on someone, which also gives them a TL for a missile next turn. Plus they roll 4 dice even if you're too close for missiles.

SLAM into Range 1 with those APTs...

5 hours ago, GILLIES291 said:

If you are worried about any sort of target lock, use Poe/Black One/Expert handling/Vectored thrusters and bring Ahsoka with recon specialist. Start of the combat phase: do a barrel roll and two target locks disappear.

Couldn't this be done without the Recon Spec or the Vectored Thrusters just as easily?