Just looking for clarification on just what can be played during the Dynasty Phase's special action window.
There's people on here that say Events with actions are fine to be played, but others mention a playtester from before release stated that you can't.
My group has been playing it as:
Anything you could normally play in an action window except for attachments and characters from hand.
Here is the verbatim rule from the book.
Quote
1.4. Play cards from provinces This is a special action window in which the opportunity to act alternates back and forth between the players, in player order. With his or her opportunity to act, a player may do one of the following:
◊ Play one character from his or her provinces. ◊ Trigger an eligible action ability.
◊ Discard a duplicate of a character from his or her hand or from one of his or her provinces to place 1 fate on a copy of that character under his or her control.
◊ Pass.
NOTE: During this window, a player is not permitted to play character or attachment cards from his or her hand. To play a character from a province, a player removes a number of fate equal to the character’s fate cost from his or her fate pool, and returns that fate to the general token pool. The character enters play and is placed in the player’s home area. The player then has the option to place any number of additional fate from his or her fate pool onto that character. Once this option to place additional fate has been completed or passed, the province from which the character was played is refilled facedown from the dynasty deck. When a player passes, that player relinquishes all further opportunities to act during this phase. (A player who has passed may still trigger interrupts and reactions to any eligible occurrence.) The player to pass first gains 1 fate from the general token pool and adds it to his or her fate pool. After one player has passed, the other player may continue to use action opportunities until he or she also passes. Once both players have passed, this step is complete.
As an aside I do wish people would quit with the "but I was a playtester so I know better" excuse to shut down any argument on their interpretation of rules. Unless you are a member of FFG staff speaking on behalf of FFG in relation to rulings you have no more authority than anyone else playing under the current rules. Now we can obviously discuss interpretations and everyone is allowed their own but being a playtester means is that you have more of a chance for rules creep. Maybe that's how it worked when they were a tester.
Also don't most actual playtesters have to sign an NDA including phrasing that basically says you won't do exactly this?
Double posting to whine isn't helping the situation Klawtu.
However, it's key to note that your bolded section is a "NOTE" not actual rules.
The rules as written specifically say what you can do, thus players can do the following:
◊ Play one character from his or her provinces.
◊ Trigger an eligible action ability.
◊ Discard a duplicate of a character from his or her hand or from one of his or her provinces to place 1 fate on a copy of that character under his or her control.
◊ Pass.
Triggering an action ability isn't the same as Playing an Event card for its action, Playing an Event card for its action is still playing an Event card.
Edited by Felsparrow
*sigh* Here we go again.
The note is part of the rules, and as Nate French from FFG has clarified, it does in fact mean that only attachments and and characters in your hand cannot be played during the Dynasty Phase. This was an official FFG ruling, and I'll link it if I track it down before someone else. Additionally, the playtester in question who stated otherwise has also publicly apologized on the Facebook page where his comment was made, admitting that his statement was in error.
1 hour ago, Duciris said:
- You may play characters from provinces.
- You may discard a unique character from your province or hand to add 1 fate to an in play character of the same name.
- You may trigger any action on a card (character, stronghold, attachment, or event) in play (character's are not in play if they are in your province). If it is limited to some window other than the dynasty phase, you can't do it.
when you post stuff like this you will confuse people, your 3rd bullet says cards in play while in the () it says events. Can events be played from your hand or do they have to already be in play? I was a huge fan of how old l5r did their rules forum, Question was asked and the only person who could reply to it was an official rules member, so multiple posts weren't made with different answers. Im a veteran O5R player but still fresh on this new game, so which is the actual answer to the question?
They really should update the rules doc. This is kind of important information to have that shouldn't be left to random forum posts or separated across so many sources.
And finally, enough with the **** playtester, it wasn't just the playtester that was at issue. The rules are not 100% clear.
Is a card in your hand in play, for example?
6 hours ago, Klawtu said:Also don't most actual playtesters have to sign an NDA including phrasing that basically says you won't do exactly this?
The NDA indeed forbids from revealing previous versions of published material, as well as completely unpublished material.
@Felsparrow Cards in your hand are not in play. But the abilities on events in your hand are eligible to be triggered.
Quote• Event cards are triggered from a player’s hand . An event card’s ability type, triggering condition (if any), and play permissions/restrictions (if any) define when and how the card may be played.
I might just be particularly dense, but none of this has made the situation any clearer to me.
Can I play an event from my hand during the dynasty phase? Yes or no?
Yes. But not Assassination because it has its own restriction (During a conflict). But Way of the Crab is ok.
I'm going to say that it's currently accepted that you can play as such.
But the rules are still weirdly written and I honestly think that at some point they didn't allow events and such to be played during Dynasty Phase, and just forgot to fully update the rules. Since there is no FFG FAQ and Errata, I honestly think the game is better if Dynasty did not allow events unless that event specifically says its allowed.
Why? Because this kind of makes the Dynasty Phase a somewhat pointless of a phase other than just not letting you pull characters out of provinces in other phases. Dynasty is about the marshaling of forces with what's available from the provinces before sending them to fight. It has its own back and forth as you focus on examining what your opponent is bringing out and trying to outwit them at that.
In the case of Way of the Crab, it turns a powerful card that can already be used to great value into yu gi oh style trap card where if your opponent just happens to play their Champion out on one action you slam them with that. It doesn't feel right to to the style of L5R, and much of the style of L5R are systems in place to curtail trap cards without cost. The counterplay here should be to keep a staple of cheaper troops to avoid that card and force out the assassination or other resources.
I hate to be one of those guys, and I won't complain if opponents play this way, but I prefer the Dynasty phase without event cards, and until FFG releases an FAQ that says otherwise, will basically agree with friends not to.
Edited by Vertruciowithout cost? Way of the crab requires a sacrifice. Allowing you know the card (not guarenteed) then bringing a clan champ out first vs crab when crab has someone out and you do not is taking a risk.
the player could bring out someone else. Unless your saying that greedy risky plays should be able to avoid being prevented that is.
One of the most confusing parts about teaching this game is the fact that the very first action window is the weird one. Both "You can't do X or Y, but this is the only time you can do Z" and "Once you pass, you don't get another action" are both fairly strong exceptions to what happens in the rest of the turn.
Maybe it would be better to have both players start at the beginning of the conflict phase, with dudes out already.
So, is this legit? Can you play events during dynasty?
2 minutes ago, Mon no Oni said:So, is this legit? Can you play events during dynasty?
Yes, you can.
12 hours ago, Felsparrow said:Is a card in your hand in play, for example?
“Out-of-play” refers to all other cards and areas involved in the game environment, including: character cards in a player’s provinces, role cards, cards in a player’s hand , decks, discard piles, and any cards that have been removed from the game.
That is quoted from the rules reference under "In Play and Out of Play."
13 hours ago, yujufrazer said:when you post stuff like this you will confuse people, your 3rd bullet says cards in play while in the () it says events. Can events be played from your hand or do they have to already be in play? I was a huge fan of how old l5r did their rules forum, Question was asked and the only person who could reply to it was an official rules member, so multiple posts weren't made with different answers. Im a veteran O5R player but still fresh on this new game, so which is the actual answer to the question?
I'll try and support my argument better. I was merely trying to help in a expeditious manner.
Under Event Cards in the current Rules Reference page 7, the last bullet reads:
Quote
- Unless the ability that puts it into play also changes its cardtype to a cardtype that is permitted in play, an event card cannot enter play.
It's confusing, but it means that an event card is never considered in play. The reason for the awkward wording, is that cards like Tattooed Wanderer ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/tattooed-wanderer) has the text " You may play this character as an attachment with the text: "Attached character gains covert." " In theory, event cards could similarly be played as an attachment or character or province. None yet exist, so we can ignore that part of the text for now and read it as "an event card cannot enter play."
Look to @Daigotsu Kai'Sen 's post about out-of-play. I was attempting to say that characters in provinces cannot use their triggered Action abilities. They can use triggered Reaction and Interrupt abilities, namely Keeper Initiate ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/keeper-initiate ) which includes the triggered ability " Reaction: After you claim a ring that matches the element of your role – put this character into play from your dynasty discard pile or provinces. Then, put 1 fate on this character."
Next, let's define triggered abilities, as I'm going to keep referencing them. Current Rules Reference page 16:
QuoteTriggered Abilities
A boldface timing command followed by a colon indicates that an ability is a triggered ability. Triggered abilities fall into one of the following types: actions , interrupts , and reactions . Some interrupt and reaction abilities are also forced.
You are permitted to use the triggered abilities of Strongholds, Holdings, Provinces (that have been revealed), Events, Characters (in play), and Attachments (also in play) during any action window of the game. Unless the action gives limits, such as "during a conflict." Using an Action costs an action (and any other costs listed) so that your opponent may then perform their own action after it. Interrupts and Reactions do not cost an action and are often triggered outside of action windows. If any are preceded by Forced (e.g. Forced Reaction: ) they are not optional and must be completed before moving on.
Abilities that are not preceded by " Action: , Interrupt: , or Reaction: " and Traits are considered to be constant and do not require activation.
Some triggered abilities that we often see in the Dynasty Phase include:
The best Rule Reference quote on this is under Appendix I: Timing and Gameplay on page 18:
QuoteAction Windows
An action ability may only be triggered during an action window. Action windows are presented in lighter orange boxes on the chart. When most action windows open, the first player has the first opportunity to initiate an action, or pass. The one exception to this is the action window during the conflict phase, in which the defending player has the first opportunity to initiate an action, or pass. Opportunities to initiate actions alternate between the players in player order until all players consecutively pass, at which point the action window closes and the game advances to the next step on the timing chart. Note that if a player passes his or her opportunity to act, but the other opponent does not consecutively pass in sequence, the original player may still take an action when the alternation of action opportunities returns to the player who had passed.
Resolve each action completely before the next action opportunity.
During each action window, players are permitted to play character and attachment cards from hand. The one exception to this is step 1.4, during which playing character and attachment cards from hand is prohibited.
The rest of Appendix I is invaluable knowledge.
13 hours ago, Felsparrow said:They really should update the rules doc. This is kind of important information to have that shouldn't be left to random forum posts or separated across so many sources.
And finally, enough with the **** playtester, it wasn't just the playtester that was at issue. The rules are not 100% clear.
We are all dying for the FAQ (which should be out any moment as the Worlds Tournament begins Wednesday of next week. Also, the Rules Reference wasn't put in the box because they intend to (and indeed have) update it moving forward.
Edited by DucirisAlways felt this was pretty easy to understand. Your prohibited from playing personalities and attachments.
Card specific limitations are also still in effect, so no charging, assassination, etc.
Pretty simple.
On 10/27/2017 at 6:12 PM, Duciris said:ILook to @Daigotsu Kai'Sen 's post about out-of-play. I was attempting to say that characters in provinces cannot use their triggered Action abilities. They can use triggered Reaction and Interrupt abilities, namely Keeper Initiate ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/keeper-initiate ) which includes the triggered ability " Reaction: After you claim a ring that matches the element of your role – put this character into play from your dynasty discard pile or provinces. Then, put 1 fate on this character."
What allows Keeper Initiate's ability to be triggered while it is out of play is not that it is a Reaction. It's that its effect is putting the character into play, which cannot possibly work if it is already in play. Note that Guidance of the Ancestors has an action that can only be triggered while it is in the discard pile. Here's the relevant quote from the RR (Ability p. 2):
QuoteCard abilities only interact with, and can only target, cards that are in play, unless the ability specifically refers to an out-of-play area or element. Card abilities on characters, attachments, holdings, strongholds, and provinces can only be initiated or affect the game while they are in play unless the ability specifically refers to being used from an out-of-play area, or require that the card be out of play for the ability to resolve. Event cards and role cards implicitly interact with the game from an out-of-play area, as established by the rules of their cardtypes.
@Khudzlin
. I think it's because the card specifically says so and countermands that rule. Blame it on the
Golden
Jade Rule, RR page 2.
QuoteIf the text of this Rules Reference directly contradicts the text of the Learn to Play book, the text of the Rules Reference takes precedence.
If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of either the Rules Reference or the Learn to play book, the text of the card takes precedence.
Edited by Duciris
@Duciris My point is that the ability type (Action, Reaction or Interrupt) is irrelevant. If a character had an ability that read " Action: During a conflict - play this character into the conflict.", that ability could be triggered while the character is in a province.
Yeah, I think it has to explicitly say "from a province," or "from your discard," but I agree that's not very explicit.
Fun piece to note:
I take these 2 texts to mean that the Initiate is "put...into play", therefore free. Guidance needs to be paid for because it says, "play...from your conflict discard pile." (That they point out that your discard pile must be dynasty or conflict , respectively, is also weird to me.)
On contemplation, they both indicate that they must be played. This is probably what their doing to have their abilities triggered while out of play.
15 minutes ago, Duciris said:Yeah, I think it has to explicitly say "from a province," or "from your discard," but I agree that's not very explicit.
Fun piece to note:
- Keeper Initiate ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/keeper-initiate ) " Reaction: After you claim a ring that matches the element of your role – put this character into play from your dynasty discard pile or provinces. Then, put 1 fate on this character."
- Guidance of the Ancestors ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/guidance-of-the-ancestors ) " Action: Play this attachment from your conflict discard pile."
I take these 2 texts to mean that the Initiate is "put...into play", therefore free. Guidance needs to be paid for because it says, "play...from your conflict discard pile." (That they point out that your discard pile must be dynasty or conflict , respectively, is also weird to me.)
On contemplation, they both indicate that they must be played. This is probably what their doing to have their abilities triggered while out of play.
I find those indications explicit enough (like a hypothetical event saying "Reaction: After you win a conflict as the defending player, spend 1 fate - return this event from your conflict discard pile to your hand." - such events do not exist yet in L5R, but they already do in AGoT).
Guidance of the Ancestors must indeed be paid for, because it uses "play" rather than "put into play" like Keeper Initiate, which you don't have to pay for. The distinction between these two terms is very important in all LCGs.
I find specifying dynasty or conflict discard pile to be a bit redundant, but not problematic at all.
34 minutes ago, Duciris said:
- Guidance of the Ancestors ( https://fiveringsdb.com/card/guidance-of-the-ancestors ) " Action: Play this attachment from your conflict discard pile."
I just read the piece and I’m having an issue with what the ‘developer ruling’ stated.
I would think that the 2 instances were the same. Thus, “If you trigger its ability...” I’m assuming means/refers to the card being played from the Discard Pile (paying the Fate required) and then being cancelled by Kisada’s ability, then why can’t it be used again? (I’m thinking too quickly about this, I guess)
Simalrily, if you play GotAncestors from the Discard Pile, then it gets removed by a Let Go, you can then play it again from the Discard Pile, as stated in the feedback.
What am I getting wrong here?
Edited by LordBlunt