I was just thinking about this while I was walking around - what makes X-Wing not kindle that special Star Wars flame in my heart as much as it used to?

I want to start this off by saying that I’m not a doom-prognosticator, and I do not have an abnormally high saline content today. I also want to say that I’m still very much enjoying the game, and I like seeing where all the new mechanics are going.

That being said, I sometimes find it very hard to really enjoy playing this game. Until recently, I thought that it was just the power creep in the game. But if you actually look at it, what did the recent FAQ (deservedly so, I might add) nerf? Biggs Darklighter is from the core set, K-Wings are from Wave VII, JM5Ks are from Wave VIII, and Nym is from Wave XI. The meta-wing stats show a number of Wave VII and VIII ships as the worst ships in the game (Kihraxz, Punisher, G1-A). Both of those sets show a pretty fair distribution of the good and bad ships in the game throughout time.

So what is it that’s hampering my love for the game? Is it not winning? True, it’s harder and harder to build a winning list with so many cards and combinations in the game, but I’ve never minded losing before... and I actually like the game’s complexity with all the new mechanics!

So what is it? I finally realized that the one thing I don’t like about this game is the fact that the good ships seem to all be taken already. I like diversity, but 50 ship types seems like plenty. And the fact that all the most powerful ships in the game are from officially non-canonical sources seems a little weird to me. I really want to see the ships I know from Star Wars - X-Wings, Y-Wings, A-Wings, and B-Wings (with the odd U-Wing) versus TIE Fighters, Bombers, Interceptors, and Advanced. Don’t get me wrong, I like variety, but I’d like it if about 50% of the winning lists comprised solely of the ships I just listed.

I get that letting Scum crash the party changes stuff, and I like a third faction from a game-design perspective. Therefore, I like all the ships in the Most Wanted pack, too, and I like seeing all the classic Empire Strikes Back bounty hunters (within reason, Dengar!).

But now, it feels like the game has peaked. We’re supposed to be getting excited over obscure video game releases like the Gunboat and Caligula, and less-famous Rebels ships like the Phantom II. Don’t get me wrong, I like seeing any new additions to the game, but after a while, it doesn’t feel like Star Wars anymore.

So how do we fix this? I’d like to see more releases for the same ships. I’d actually like it if we were pretty much done with expansions! I would be very happy if waves went to a once-per-year schedule, an most of the products sold were reprints.

So then how would FFG grow the game? What would we buy? My idea is to have expansions for expansions, or more expansions of the same ship! I had a dream (an actual dream, while I was sleeping) a year or so ago, that I walked into a game store and saw “A-Wing Expansion II” on the shelf! I was so excited! Basically, my idea is that they could add new pilots, titles, and upgrades for the same ships, in new expansion packs, but keep using the same ships! So for example, “Y-Wing Expansion II” would contain a Rebel Y-Wing, two dials, a title that lets Y-Wings use the second, new dial, and gives them new upgrades, and new pilots like Evaan Verlaine, Keyan Farlander, Ace Azzameen, etc... alternatively, they could release packs with new dials, tokens and cards, but no ship, that said “this product is not a complete game experience. Requires a copy of the X-Wing Miniatures core set and the Y-Wing expansion pack to play.”

Basically, I love the game, and I want FFG to keep releasing products, but next time they want to add a new game mechanic, I want it to be through a real, canonical, Star Wars ship!

How about you? What do you think?

27 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So how do we fix this?

Most likely, you don't. You're basically asking for the game to be designed in a way that somehow encourages people to use the wave 1-3 ships and/or discourages them to use the rest.

27 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I’d like it if about 50% of the winning lists comprised solely of the ships I just listed.

I'd probably prefer this version of the game as well over how it is currently, but it's still not a balanced game, you're just shuffling it around to suit a particular set of thematic tastes.

The "best" version of the game for everyone would be as close to perfectly balanced as possible, so that people can play more or less whatever they want. Even then, there's no guarantee that people would play those ships in the percentages you want to see. Above all, the way FFG handles and produces the game combined with the limitations of the physical format, makes it pretty much impossible for this to ever happen as things stand currently.

So what can you do? Create a custom community-built play format with rebalanced cards and costs. Or rather, support and discuss the ones that already are or will soon be in the works from the community itself, as creating a whole bunch of splintered individual projects will result in none of them going anywhere.

Besides that, have conversations with people in your area and see if anyone else shares your views. Considering how many people complain about the state of the game all the time, I can't imagine it's all that uncommon. I have a feeling that many players are subjecting themselves to the status quo just because they don't want to go to the trouble of trying to discuss alternate formats/limitations even though the other people they play regularly would probably be down for it if someone just brought it up.

27 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I want it to be through a real, canonical, Star Wars ship!

Like the GUNBOAT?

Bad joke. Sorry. I meant to say the Decimator.

Well don't forget, with the Rebels tv show being canon and the new movies coming out every year, a lot of these ships (Upsilon, Uwing, etc.,) are just as official as B-wings and Tie bombers. There was an awkward patch around wave 4-7 where they kind of had to dig through non-movie/tv show stuff for most of their ships (although as a big fan of the novels and the video games, those were some of the things I was most excited to see) but now most of its coming from the new movies or the tv show. It doesn't really make sense for them not to include those in the game.

That said, new updates to older ships would be nice. A-wing with rotating guns!

11 minutes ago, Effenhoog said:

You're basically asking for the game to be designed in a way that somehow encourages people to use the wave 1-3 ships and/or discourages them to use the rest.

So, an important question here is, what’s wrong with that? This isn’t a CCG - stuff doesn’t ever go out of print. If the Wave 1-3 ships are the best, just keep reprinting them!

I understand people also don’t like stagnation - hence the suggestion to add new pilots and titles to existing ships. I think that could really help.

I just don’t like the fact that if I want to fly ships from the actual movies, I have to go full-on casual mode and ask my opponent to do the same, or else I’ll just get destroyed.

19 hours ago, Kieransi said:

So, an important question here is, what’s wrong with that? This isn’t a CCG - stuff doesn’t ever go out of print. If the Wave 1-3 ships are the best, just keep reprinting them!

I understand people also don’t like stagnation - hence the suggestion to add new pilots and titles to existing ships. I think that could really help.

I just don’t like the fact that if I want to fly ships from the actual movies, I have to go full-on casual mode and ask my opponent to do the same, or else I’ll just get destroyed.

the problem is that, if they are the best, then it only pleases the people who specifically want to play the wave 1-3 ships, at the expense of the rest.

To be more clear, I'm advocating for a balanced game in which anyone who had the desire to play OT ships can do so without feeling like they have no chance, but the metric for judging a balanced game is not "X% of people play these particular ships." Saying you'd like to see 50% of squads use those ships requires either that many players share your tastes (quite possibly they would), or to outright restrict or discourage the use of the other ships

Note that I'm not trying to overanalyze your words or criticize your tastes, as I would also like to see a lot more of the wave 1-3 ships used than we see currently as well. I just want to make it clear that ship use distribution should not be the metric to aim for, as it would require either intentional game imbalance or squad building restrictions to encourage or outright enforce it.

Totally agree with you. My worry though is that FFG is not at all smart enough to set up a neural network or meta-data analysis system to help them with game design balance, so there’s gonna be some random “oh, this looks cool! Let’s stick it in the next expansion!”-type power creep. That’s why I like at the bare minimum having “X-Wing Expansion II” or “B-Wing Expansion II”, so that next time they decide to come up with a new concept that completely breaks the game it at least shows up as a ship that 95% of fans can identify on sight.

for me, the need for new ships was to freshen up quickly stagnating metas (which may or may not be FFG's secret evil plan)

I was personally very satisfied during wave 7. The stupid bull fat turret cancer of wave 5 had been swiss cheesed by TLTs, the new movies and their sweet TIE paint scheme were coming out (and Omega Leader was a boss), and I managed to win a store championship with a punisher

But you can bet your *** I wanted more ships out during wave 5, and basically every wave since 8 (although there was a bit of an abatement with the beautiful ARC, the nifty SF and my favorite empire ship, the x7)

Now? Well we just got a bomb of an faq. I'm not so naive as to think we'll be seeing Xs, T-70s, Bs etc. again because of it, but I am optimistic and thus not as concerned about future releases. I preordered my boats and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future.

A bit like a core set played over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I know what you mean. There are still ships I'd like to see because they have a personal meaning for me, but overall the game seems to really have been flooded at this point.

Also, while whether a ship was canonical used to be the point of contention, I think now it's a matter of how iconic it is. Most ships are canon now, through the new movies or Rebels, but I've actually been hating them more than the old EU ships, and I hated most of the EU (not that it doesn't make sense to add them). It's just weird to me for the game to expect me to be attached to some new ship invented out of nowhere, regardless of whether or not its canonical.

I'm also annoyed when a ship like the Phantom II is accepted because it's canonical, when it makes a ship that I grew up with, namely the TIE Phantom, seem a lot more awkward by reusing the name. That's a personal thing, but I think it applies on a larger scale. There were generations who grew up with the Prequels and on the Clone Wars show, but the ships of that era still don't seem to be anywhere near as iconic as the X-Wing and TIE Fighter. A lot of these new ships might be canonical and recognized by fans now, but aren't going to stand the test of time.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

So, an important question here is, what’s wrong with that? This isn’t a CCG - stuff doesn’t ever go out of print. If the Wave 1-3 ships are the best, just keep reprinting them!

I understand people also don’t like stagnation - hence the suggestion to add new pilots and titles to existing ships. I think that could really help.

I just don’t like the fact that if I want to fly ships from the actual movies, I have to go full-on casual mode and ask my opponent to do the same, or else I’ll just get destroyed.

I can see where you're coming from, but personally, my list being destroyed seems a rather small price to pay for being able to fly the ships I like.

Quote

Does this game still need new ships?

You're one of those parents who asks their kids "Don't you think you've had enough candy for today?" aren't you?

I get what you're saying @Kieransi, but I disagree with it for the most part. I already feel like their is too much back tracking (all the aces packs) to get ships up to speed, but since Waves 1-4 are essentially XWM 1.0, they all need to be brought up to XWM 2.0 (the current game).

I would love the old ships revisited to expand content for them, but I would not want this to mean the game never sees Prequel ships, new releases from ongoing movie and cartoon storylines, or even the occasional dabble into the EU. I would even like to see additional Huge ship releases for each faction so that there are options there, too.

One thing that would really help is for FFG to pay attention to the narrative elements they can produce. Sure, the T-65 could use some help, but it would also be great to see Tiree, Pops, Blue Squadron, Phoenix Squadron, and the other Inquisitors come to the game even if the TAP doesn't need any help.

The TIE/ag isn't a bad ship, but it doesn't really tickle my Star Wars funny bone in the same way as the TIE Silencer.

32 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I get what you're saying @Kieransi, but I disagree with it for the most part. I already feel like their is too much back tracking (all the aces packs) to get ships up to speed, but since Waves 1-4 are essentially XWM 1.0, they all need to be brought up to XWM 2.0 (the current game).

One thing that would really help is for FFG to pay attention to the narrative elements they can produce. Sure, the T-65 could use some help, but it would also be great to see Tiree, Pops, Blue Squadron, Phoenix Squadron, and the other Inquisitors come to the game even if the TAP doesn't need any help.

The thread title may have been just a little bit clickbait...

I don't really think that the game should just stop having expansion packs altogether, I'd just rather that they only did like one wave a year of new ships, and had the other releases be completely new product that includes but adds new titles/pilots for existing ships - examples being expansion packs labeled “X-Wing Expansion II” or “B-Wing Expansion II”, for example. I actually think that plan would back up both of the things that I quoted from your post!

I would be on board with a reduction or temporary halt to new ships for X-wing in favour of campaign packs or something to that effect. Not X-wing or TIE Fighter expansion pack II, but cardboard only packs in a similar vein to the Corellian Confilct for Armada.

I'd be excited for a narrative campaign set during Empire Strikes Back timeline that added pilots and upgrades for the original trilogy ships, TIEs and alphabet wings oh my. A smaller thing could be done for the Battle of Scarif with additions for the Y-wing, U-wing, TIE Fighter and TIE Striker. For EU ships such as the K-wing and E-wing maybe a Black Fleet campaign (I'm not familiar with the source material for those ships, I think it's Black Fleet). For Scum and Villainy a set of Bounty Hunter missions maybe.

At this point I'm fairly apathetic towards new ships, I've already passed on two waves and of the last wave I only got the TIE/ag because I had a soft spot for the aesthetic. Of the next two waves of ships the Resistance Bomber and Phantom II both get a hard pass and in spite of kind of liking the mechanics and look of the Starwing (*ahem* GUNBOAT) I don't have any urge to get one.

I'm more excited for the Starviper in the upcoming Guns for Hire pack, and even then I'd be happy just getting the Starviper pilots and title card. Clearly I'm more interested in keeping the game fresh with different ways to use what I've got rather that adding new ships. Based on the comments by the X-wing devs though the FFG attitude to keeping the game alive is more ships.

Good thing we've got a community that's willing to build alternative play formats to the game, time to get another game of HOTAC going.

I should add one caveat to all of the above, if they release new A-wings I will buy them, Resistance A-wings, Phoenix Squadron A-wings, Sabines A-wings, Pash Crakens A-wings, I will buy them all.

I'd say they need to keep releasing ships, even if at a slower pace, since new canon material will keep being released, and people will want to play that.

On the other hand, I feel they've kind of painted themselves into a corner by making scum a separate faction and attempting to keep ship parity with the main factions. Scum is where they've shown they will have to keep digging into obscure material, because there's no way the official canon (at least not the movies) will be introducing as many new scum ships as they will resistance / first order.

I've been collecting everything for the game, but I kind of feel I might start skipping scum content if they keep scraping the bottom of the barrel for a lack of more interesting ships.

That said, the Solo movie will likely help with some canon scum material for a wave or two.

Yep me too. I get REALLY excited about things like the battles of Yavin, Scarif, and so on, but I'm just not that in to some of the newer ships.

I'd buy a partisan X-wing and different paint schemes and blue sq. scarif pilots, ****, I'd even go for hera.
but the phantom II just doesn't grab me.

We're doing this over with X-Wing Supremacy, where we take the meta, ship frame variants like the T-65B or T65A-C2 and so on and throw them in the blender. Might be worth giving it a go as a competitive game format if you're finding things stale, we'd love the extra data and input!

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

for me, the need for new ships was to freshen up quickly stagnating metas (which may or may not be FFG's secret evil plan)

I was personally very satisfied during wave 7. The stupid bull fat turret cancer of wave 5 had been swiss cheesed by TLTs, the new movies and their sweet TIE paint scheme were coming out (and Omega Leader was a boss), and I managed to win a store championship with a punisher

But you can bet your *** I wanted more ships out during wave 5, and basically every wave since 8 (although there was a bit of an abatement with the beautiful ARC, the nifty SF and my favorite empire ship, the x7)

Now? Well we just got a bomb of an faq. I'm not so naive as to think we'll be seeing Xs, T-70s, Bs etc. again because of it, but I am optimistic and thus not as concerned about future releases. I preordered my boats and that's going to be it for the foreseeable future.

Well Plot armor technical got better and was doing okish already. So maybe a little more intensity poe on the tables?

I'm still patiently waiting on the rest of the prequel and clone wars ships.

FFG made it sound like they are on the way at celebration. Still waiting on them...

2 hours ago, IdleFool said:

I should add one caveat to all of the above, if they release new A-wings I will buy them, Resistance A-wings, Phoenix Squadron A-wings, Sabines A-wings, Pash Crakens A-wings, I will buy them all.

I think you & I might be twins, separated at birth.

Boring

I’d love to see a slower release pace, no need to do a ship for every faction in every wave, and new expansions for old ships.

+1

2 hours ago, IdleFool said:

I should add one caveat to all of the above, if they release new A-wings I will buy them, Resistance A-wings, Phoenix Squadron A-wings, Sabines A-wings, Pash Crakens A-wings, I will buy them all.

In a surprising twist, FFG releases Maarek Stele's A-Wing, painted Imperial black and blue!

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Well Plot armor technical got better and was doing okish already. So maybe a little more intensity poe on the tables?

eh, I'm not hopeful. There is nothing so thoroughly unimpressive as Poe without regen

That new tech upgrade that lets you keep your focus, on the other hand...

I still buy multiple copies of the recognizable ships from the OT (plus things like z-95s that have been around). Of course they are already doing this... it's called Aces Packs.... I would also buy expansion packs if they only contained cards/cardboard tokens. But they also may be holding off for an xwing 2.0 that finally generalizes all the fixes they've been adding on for bombs/turrets/torps like mobile firing arcs for instance. They like to test design elements by first releasing them as a special ability on a ship or unique card or something and then later generalize them. I would love card-only expansion packs for my classic ships if it meant keeping them fresh.

They've tried doing bigger and better ships with EPIC, but I think the biggest hit would be just printing up more cards... even if they only had slight changes that were mostly flavor and less of a meta-warping effect. They can print up new cards that place beloved characters, like Darth and Luke in different ships and at different stages in their careers... of course the cards will multiply over time and the complexity will balloon which means they will need to switch to a MTG style system of a core set and only keeping certain cycles of cards in the competitive environment.

there also seems to be a thing where the disney version of starwars is gradually replacing all the older ships and we are being served up the older iconic ships but with bigger, glassy eyes. eventually the disneyverse will erase everything...

Probably like what X-wing vs TIE fighter looks like without updates, dead.

However maybe instead of new ships what the game needs is ways of updating the older ships. Maybe with some sort of card rotation but keep the models legal some how. Get a reprint for Luke and Wedge to bring them up to the same speed as the meta.