It has nothing to do with 'the hurt'.

Indeed, adding a single torpedo to the Punishing One title has a nearly infinitesimal different to power level. Likewise, adding a salvaged astromech in place of the crew adds a few more options, but is hardly an un-nerf - the trick to the Punishing One was that it had an EPT and a Salvaged Astromech and a Crew, and that has been nerfed, and would not be un-nerfed by my suggestions.

The suggestion is instead "Make the box legal again while maintaining flavor and avoiding re-upping the power of this thing". The x/7 and Palp nerfs did not change the legality of the expansion packs they came in.

1 hour ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

And yet, Autothrusters came with an entirely unplayable ship!

Underpowered is not the same as actively illegal.

Besides, Xizor and 5 Z-95s even had a small corner of "This can be pretty neat" for a brief while, even if it didn't last.

If I was a wagering man, judging by the leak I'd say FFG was in the process of playtesting various alterations to the Punishing One title. It's entirely possible FFG is still playtesting variations on the title, and this is probably why no such fix was presented right away. Alternatively, it still makes very strong jumpmasters, they may wish to see how the "live" meta handles weaker Jumps before granting back some of the features of the ship. There are many possible explanations, we should assume FFG is working at least with sensibility and good faith - they rarely have gone out of their way to completely invalidate old material, and frequently go out of their way to make old material more usable - at least when it comes to ships.

The JM5K never should have started with torpedoes or mech (or PWT, but let's save that fight for a different time). Those were always customizations Dengar made to his Punishing One. Along with Ion Cannons, for that matter. In a sense both to the lore and to keep the "complete" value of the pack, the Punishing One should probably be fixed to add at least one torpedo and the astromech slot back in. If it killed the crew slot, removing combos like K4+Unhinged, this would not be a remiss move on the mechanics, even if it isn't required by the lore (Punishing One still has a back seat, Dengar added the socket along with the quad turret). Presumably, the X-Wing team has these same thoughts and concerns or it wouldn't have been in circulation in playtesting. We will have to wait and see, I think, because the fact that there is no errata to Punishing One doesn't mean there won't be, and the team may not necessarily want to delay the FAQ further just to draw more data on what to do about a very divisive ship. Or maybe throwing it out with no change is the data.

14 hours ago, darthlurker said:

The heavy scyk title would like a word with you!

Only buff if it could sell a huge ship. Learn the ways of the Hutt.

1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

If I was a wagering man, judging by the leak I'd say FFG was in the process of playtesting various alterations to the Punishing One title. It's entirely possible FFG is still playtesting variations on the title, and this is probably why no such fix was presented right away. Alternatively, it still makes very strong jumpmasters, they may wish to see how the "live" meta handles weaker Jumps before granting back some of the features of the ship. There are many possible explanations, we should assume FFG is working at least with sensibility and good faith - they rarely have gone out of their way to completely invalidate old material, and frequently go out of their way to make old material more usable - at least when it comes to ships.

The JM5K never should have started with torpedoes or mech (or PWT, but let's save that fight for a different time). Those were always customizations Dengar made to his Punishing One. Along with Ion Cannons, for that matter. In a sense both to the lore and to keep the "complete" value of the pack, the Punishing One should probably be fixed to add at least one torpedo and the astromech slot back in. If it killed the crew slot, removing combos like K4+Unhinged, this would not be a remiss move on the mechanics, even if it isn't required by the lore (Punishing One still has a back seat, Dengar added the socket along with the quad turret). Presumably, the X-Wing team has these same thoughts and concerns or it wouldn't have been in circulation in playtesting. We will have to wait and see, I think, because the fact that there is no errata to Punishing One doesn't mean there won't be, and the team may not necessarily want to delay the FAQ further just to draw more data on what to do about a very divisive ship. Or maybe throwing it out with no change is the data.

I'm inclined to agree - that they made no change whatsoever to Punishing One during such a comprehensive rewrite of the ship is actually suggestive of the idea that they want to leave fiddling with that particular title til later.

Balance is fixed in the meantime, because none of the changes are drastic improvements, so they can go through the combos and check that anything else won't be a problem, either.

Could also make the Astro have to be unique.

Its essentially a soft nerf to k4 on jumps.

7 minutes ago, Stronghammer said:

Could also make the Astro have to be unique.

Its essentially a soft nerf to k4 on jumps.

Do you mean include the astromech and the crew slot simultaneously, but require the astromech to be unique? Because that will still leave us with the problem of the Overclocked R4 that comes in the pack being illegal on the ship it comes with, and opens up many of the wonky combos we can presume they wanted to eliminate by not having agromechs and crew on the ship upgrade bar at the same time.

7 hours ago, Reiver said:

It has nothing to do with 'the hurt'.

Indeed, adding a single torpedo to the Punishing One title has a nearly infinitesimal different to power level. Likewise, adding a salvaged astromech in place of the crew adds a few more options, but is hardly an un-nerf - the trick to the Punishing One was that it had an EPT and a Salvaged Astromech and a Crew, and that has been nerfed, and would not be un-nerfed by my suggestions.

The suggestion is instead "Make the box legal again while maintaining flavor and avoiding re-upping the power of this thing". The x/7 and Palp nerfs did not change the legality of the expansion packs they came in.

You gotta admit, it is pretty ironic that the most hated ship in the game's history finally gets a direct nerf, and one of the first things we start talking about is "saving" the darn thing. I'm sure FFG are more than a little confused right now.

Anyway, back to your proposal: I disagree that adding the torp has such a small impact on the overall ship's power level. Dengar with torps is absolute filth and I bid it good riddance. I'd be more open to it if switching droid-for-crew was mandatory, as it takes the Expertise+K4+Torpedo setup off the table*, but honestly Dengar's got enough advantages being a PS9 3-dice PWT with built-in repositioning, arguably the best ability in the game, and absolutely the best dial in the game. He doesn't need spike damage on top of all that.

* Yes, I realise it's significantly less effective without Unhinged, but c'mon, it's a fully-modified torpedo at PS9 which is setup by simply moving the ship. Just because you couldn't do it at speed 3 anymore doesn't really change the impact.

4 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

You gotta admit, it is pretty ironic that the most hated ship in the game's history finally gets a direct nerf, and one of the first things we start talking about is "saving" the darn thing. I'm sure FFG are probably a little confused right now.

Anyway, back to your proposal: I disagree that adding the torp has such a small impact on the overall ship's power level. Dengar with torps is absolute filth and I bid it good riddance. I'd be more open to it if switching droid-for-crew was mandatory, as it takes the Expertise+K4+Torpedo setup off the table, but honestly Dengar's got enough advantages being a PS9 3-dice PWT with built-in repositioning, arguably the best ability in the game, and absolutely the best dial in the game. He doesn't need spike damage on top of all that.

Dengar with one torp and who already has the Punishing One Title is absolute filth? I admit, I've never really paid much attention to single-use torpedos, even in the age of Plasmas.

8 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Dengar with one torp and who already has the Punishing One Title is absolute filth? I admit, I've never really paid much attention to single-use torpedos, even in the age of Plasmas.

Yes. It means that, on top of all of his advantages in the following brawl (PS9, action free mods, stupidly good dial), Dengar would also be off to a big damage lead thanks to that opening 4 dice shot that denies range bonuses and does extra shield damage. It's often a back breaking advantage.

The unique only thing would be maybe good for balance, but would be funny, given how the only references I can find to Dengar using an astro is as a generic "R2 Astromech".

22 hours ago, Reiver said:

I've seen a fair bit of kvetching about the fact that the Jumpmaster 5000 expansion pack now includes a raft of upgrade cards that are physically impossible to equip to the ship they came with - a major break from X-wing tradition.

Well, this happened because of an Errata; why not fix it with an Errata? It's clear they didn't want the crew and salvaged astromech combo to allow for excessive synergies, but that's no reason we can't have the option of getting an astromech, right? Well, it just so happens that in-verse, the torpedo tubes and astromech slot were custom-fitted by Dengar himself. You know, to that customised scout ship he then gave a name to...

• Punishing One
  Title. Jumpmaster-5000 only.
  Increase your attack value by 1.
  Your upgrade bar gains the (torpedo) upgrade icon.
  You may equip (salvaged astromech) upgrade cards in your (crew) upgrade slot.
  12pts

You could also go the route of Havoc and insist that the crew slot be replaced, but on a ship like this that's a bigger deal - with torpedo tubes gone from the base ship, there's really no other way to boost the ships firepower if you want to fatten it up, and so excluding crew so emphatically feels like it would be distinctly unfortunate. This way, then, you a torpedo (which is not nearly so powerful when you just paid 12pts to buy 3 attack already), and then get to equip either a crew or astromech. The trick here is that you still let Manaroo fly the Punishing One with Dengar to keep her company, but you can equip Dengar with his ol' buddy R5-P8 as well... without having the combos of Unhinged & K4 Droids (presumably the kind of combo they're still bothered about, at least) sticking around to ruin the party.

Et voila: The whole pack is now able to be used by the ship it comes with, the Punishing One title is a little more interesting in allowing combos the base ship couldn't, and balance complexity is still simpler, because you're not trying to comb through combos of astromech x crew every time you release one or the other.

Whatcha think?

This really needs to be done, because as of now, upon purchase, the Punishing One is a useless and broken expansion set.

I mean worthless... Why buy an expansion that has cards you cannot use? Fail FFG... Epic Fail - Like the Death Star II. Seriously, are you guys going to waste money on changing the expansion pack?

I think the errata mentioned above makes sense. Title gives only one ship a torpedo and an astromech in accordance with fluff, but nerfs all other ships of the class. Makes me wonder why this wasn't done in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Eskandare said:

This really needs to be done, because as of now, upon purchase, the Punishing One is a useless and broken expansion set.

I mean worthless... Why buy an expansion that has cards you cannot use? Fail FFG... Epic Fail - Like the Death Star II. Seriously, are you guys going to waste money on changing the expansion pack?

This argument is ridiculous. Unless the Jumpmaster is literally the only ship you own, you can just put the upgrades on your other ships. The Jumpmaster itself is still playable out of the box. Dengar is still ridiculous, and Scouts are still insane value for points.

3 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

This argument is ridiculous. Unless the Jumpmaster is literally the only ship you own, you can just put the upgrades on your other ships. The Jumpmaster itself is still playable out of the box. Dengar is still ridiculous, and Scouts are still insane value for points.

In a business sense and with the philosophy of FFG, this is cost damaging flop.

Just now, DR4CO said:

This argument is ridiculous. Unless the Jumpmaster is literally the only ship you own, you can just put the upgrades on your other ships. The Jumpmaster itself is still playable out of the box. Dengar is still ridiculous, and Scouts are still insane value for points.

They've been careful to make sure that was never an issue. Also, with no joke, no small number of folks start with very limited squadrons of ships. I have literally met a guy that showed up to a store game night with a Dengar and a Bossk, and these two ships, a Force Awakens starter set, and the cards within them, were the entirety of his collection, and he'd assembled his squad as best he could from the parts. (Not going to lie, Rage Painbot Dengar with a K4 was suprisingly good ship, considering the limitations of the format!)

Not a single one of them, with the new rules, would have been able to fly a Salvaged Astromech. "Just keep buying more ships" is hardly an excuse.

3 minutes ago, Reiver said:

They've been careful to make sure that was never an issue. Also, with no joke, no small number of folks start with very limited squadrons of ships. I have literally met a guy that showed up to a store game night with a Dengar and a Bossk, and these two ships, a Force Awakens starter set, and the cards within them, were the entirety of his collection, and he'd assembled his squad as best he could from the parts. (Not going to lie, Rage Painbot Dengar with a K4 was suprisingly good ship, considering the limitations of the format!)

Not a single one of them, with the new rules, would have been able to fly a Salvaged Astromech. "Just keep buying more ships" is hardly an excuse.

I did the same, FA starter set plus a TIE Defender (Yes, two years later I have every imperial ship). My GF is just getting into the game and has only a small few ships. IG-2000, Slave One, and most wanted for Boba Fett. She just picked up Punishing One.

32 minutes ago, Reiver said:

They've been careful to make sure that was never an issue. Also, with no joke, no small number of folks start with very limited squadrons of ships. I have literally met a guy that showed up to a store game night with a Dengar and a Bossk, and these two ships, a Force Awakens starter set, and the cards within them, were the entirety of his collection, and he'd assembled his squad as best he could from the parts. (Not going to lie, Rage Painbot Dengar with a K4 was suprisingly good ship, considering the limitations of the format!)

Not a single one of them, with the new rules, would have been able to fly a Salvaged Astromech. "Just keep buying more ships" is hardly an excuse.

So he puts the Salvaged Astromechs aside and waits until he gets a ship that can use them. In the meantime, he can still run entirely legal squads that are still fairly lethal given the restrictions. For example:

Dengar + Lone Wolf + K4 Security Droid + Glitterstim + Engine Upgrade + Punishing One [56]
Bossk + Crack Shot + Outlaw Tech + Boba Fett + Feedback Array [43]
99 points

I maintain, the argument that you can't use the cards with the ship so the whole thing is a waste of money is ridiculous. It's supremely unlikely to prevent you fielding legal and effective 100 point squads that include a Jumpmaster, and the cards remain good on other ships. The only legitimate complaint about it is that it's never happened before, but it's at most a minor annoyance.

They probably felt that adding Torp + Astromech to the title would make Dengar too powerful.

Sure except change the cost of the title to 32

9 hours ago, Eskandare said:

This really needs to be done, because as of now, upon purchase, the Punishing One is a useless and broken expansion set.

I mean worthless... Why buy an expansion that has cards you cannot use? Fail FFG... Epic Fail

And then, again, when you buy Imperial Raider that costs substantialy more you get a ship that you cannot use FOR REAL in a game, unless you play epic. That is worthless, not Jumpmaster.

I know at least one person that would like to buy Punishing One after the nerf, and I know a lot of people that think Jumpmaster is still the best ship around despite the nerf. Also, if I were to play Scum I would buy Punishing One even just for cards that come with it and that it cannot use, because those cards are **** good on other ships too.

9 hours ago, Eskandare said:

In a business sense and with the philosophy of FFG, this is cost damaging flop.

Really? I have bought G-1A for Adaptability, Starviper for Autothrusters, Scurrg for Cruise Missiles, U-Wing for Inspiring Recruit and Expertise and, wait for it, Jumpmaster for Rage. Yeah, a flop. And I will never fly those ships, which is much less then how much Jumpmaster will be used from now on.

14 hours ago, Jagos said:

And then, again, when you buy Imperial Raider that costs substantialy more you get a ship that you cannot use FOR REAL in a game, unless you play epic. That is worthless, not Jumpmaster.

I know at least one person that would like to buy Punishing One after the nerf, and I know a lot of people that think Jumpmaster is still the best ship around despite the nerf. Also, if I were to play Scum I would buy Punishing One even just for cards that come with it and that it cannot use, because those cards are **** good on other ships too.

One might argue the entire point of buying a Raider is to have a ship you would, in fact, play Epic with.

Compeditive gameplay might not agree, but it's a perfectly reasonable assumption of the designers to begin with!

On 10/26/2017 at 5:32 PM, UnitOmega said:

If I was a wagering man, judging by the leak I'd say FFG was in the process of playtesting various alterations to the Punishing One title. It's entirely possible FFG is still playtesting variations on the title, and this is probably why no such fix was presented right away. Alternatively, it still makes very strong jumpmasters, they may wish to see how the "live" meta handles weaker Jumps before granting back some of the features of the ship. There are many possible explanations, we should assume FFG is working at least with sensibility and good faith - they rarely have gone out of their way to completely invalidate old material, and frequently go out of their way to make old material more usable - at least when it comes to ships.

The JM5K never should have started with torpedoes or mech (or PWT, but let's save that fight for a different time). Those were always customizations Dengar made to his Punishing One. Along with Ion Cannons, for that matter. In a sense both to the lore and to keep the "complete" value of the pack, the Punishing One should probably be fixed to add at least one torpedo and the astromech slot back in. If it killed the crew slot, removing combos like K4+Unhinged, this would not be a remiss move on the mechanics, even if it isn't required by the lore (Punishing One still has a back seat, Dengar added the socket along with the quad turret). Presumably, the X-Wing team has these same thoughts and concerns or it wouldn't have been in circulation in playtesting. We will have to wait and see, I think, because the fact that there is no errata to Punishing One doesn't mean there won't be, and the team may not necessarily want to delay the FAQ further just to draw more data on what to do about a very divisive ship. Or maybe throwing it out with no change is the data.

Yeah, the lore nerd in me wants to see the title add a torp slot and swap a crew for a salvaged astromech, but I will always sacrifice lore at the altar of fair and balanced gameplay.

Fair disclosure, I've never even played with the Jumpmaster, despite owning one.

It’s dead Jim...

of course its not, the dumb thing is still a monster and even still after 4? debuffs it’s going to be a top DPS killer... but still,

Let it go

I only have one Jumpmaster ship, to go with my Dengar figure (Kenner - I have all the Bounty hunters bar Boba).

I still haven't flown the ship, as I wanted my opponents to have fun. I will fly it now, after this nerf.

I do think it is wrong that new purchasers get cards that are not viable for the ship they buy. They may be entry level Freemaker fan kids, for example, with the core, most wanted and this. This is not a new consumer friendly nerf, and the title should enable all cards to be used. The OP's suggestion appears to not improve the ship, and so should be considered.

If you are really worried about the torp, limit it to two points. It's not kit friendly but Seísmic Torps would be thematic on a hyperspace routing craft...