I've seen a fair bit of kvetching about the fact that the Jumpmaster 5000 expansion pack now includes a raft of upgrade cards that are physically impossible to equip to the ship they came with - a major break from X-wing tradition.

Well, this happened because of an Errata; why not fix it with an Errata? It's clear they didn't want the crew and salvaged astromech combo to allow for excessive synergies, but that's no reason we can't have the option of getting an astromech, right? Well, it just so happens that in-verse, the torpedo tubes and astromech slot were custom-fitted by Dengar himself. You know, to that customised scout ship he then gave a name to...

• Punishing One
  Title. Jumpmaster-5000 only.
  Increase your attack value by 1.
  Your upgrade bar gains the (torpedo) upgrade icon.
  You may equip (salvaged astromech) upgrade cards in your (crew) upgrade slot.
  12pts

You could also go the route of Havoc and insist that the crew slot be replaced, but on a ship like this that's a bigger deal - with torpedo tubes gone from the base ship, there's really no other way to boost the ships firepower if you want to fatten it up, and so excluding crew so emphatically feels like it would be distinctly unfortunate. This way, then, you a torpedo (which is not nearly so powerful when you just paid 12pts to buy 3 attack already), and then get to equip either a crew or astromech. The trick here is that you still let Manaroo fly the Punishing One with Dengar to keep her company, but you can equip Dengar with his ol' buddy R5-P8 as well... without having the combos of Unhinged & K4 Droids (presumably the kind of combo they're still bothered about, at least) sticking around to ruin the party.

Et voila: The whole pack is now able to be used by the ship it comes with, the Punishing One title is a little more interesting in allowing combos the base ship couldn't, and balance complexity is still simpler, because you're not trying to comb through combos of astromech x crew every time you release one or the other.

Whatcha think?

It does feel like this might have been an intended step that got missed, yeah.

Learn the ways of the Sith, no buffs, only Nerfs, it is the destiny of Xwing.

The heavy scyk title would like a word with you!

Agreed, this does feel like the missing element of the FAQ. I'd have zero issues with the JumpMaster changes with this version of the Punishing One title.

Why? Punishing One seems okay as it is. The ship is cheap as **** and by removing some OP options, the problém is now fixed.

Let’s all have a break from Jumpmasters. If they are relegated to oblivion then this fix would be a good way to bring them back a little. But please let’s have a break first.

27 minutes ago, Jiron said:

Why? Punishing One seems okay as it is. The ship is cheap as **** and by removing some OP options, the problém is now fixed.

Because half the cards it comes with can no longer be played on the ship. At all.

This seems in rather poor form, especially when among them include explicitly named Little Psychopathic Robot Buddy of the characters flying the thing.

I don't want to give all the crazy combos back, of course. Just... you know, let them choose one or the other, and at least theoretically pack a torpedo tube (even if it's about as useful as the ones on an X-wing).

While I agree to an extent that it is awkward now that jumpmaster kit comes with cards it cannot use, by no means should it be an excuse to keep the ship OP as it was. Frankly, do you know any scum player that has only jumpmasters, so he cannot use those upgrades elsewhere? Or is a new player going to buy only jumpmasters, nothing else? I don't believe.

If the Punishing One title changed to allow any of things now changed with FAQ fix, nothing would have changed in Dengar meta, which appeared to be a problem for more than a year now. This fix is just fine. And if you think that it is unfair that you bought a ship that is worse than when you bought it, know that many of us have Imperial Raiders.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It does feel like this might have been an intended step that got missed, yeah.

Since we know it was in the leak, it looks like it got missed on purpose. Dengar is worse now, but still GREAT

Yup, not disagreeing there.

Maybe I'm a stubborn one, but I am still going to try and keep Dengar relevant. Ffg did not make it easy, but I will not lose that investment!

Actually trying to see if Dengar + Ketsu can be a thing (or Asajj but I'm worried about her ps in the era of imp super aces)

Maybe I'm a stubborn one, but I am still going to try and keep Dengar relevant. Ffg did not make it easy, but I will not lose that investment!

Actually trying to see if Dengar + Ketsu can be a thing (or Asajj but I'm worried about her ps in the era of imp super aces)

Assaj is great. Arc to one side, drive in circle, profit.

I would even be ok if it just said, you must equip Dengar's droid and it didn't grant a slot, like the Mist Hunter title.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

Maybe I'm a stubborn one, but I am still going to try and keep Dengar relevant. Ffg did not make it easy, but I will not lose that investment!

Actually trying to see if Dengar + Ketsu can be a thing (or Asajj but I'm worried about her ps in the era of imp super aces)

Dengar and VI Ketsu are absolutely a thing. Double-Tractor beamed targets for Dengar, yum...

Torps on the title would be a mistake I think. The original leaked FAQ had the base ship with one torp, then you lost that torp and gained the salvaged astromech with the title, with neither having illicits. I think I'd have preferrred that to what we got, there would be fewer unusable cards in the box.

8 hours ago, Jagos said:

While I agree to an extent that it is awkward now that jumpmaster kit comes with cards it cannot use, by no means should it be an excuse to keep the ship OP as it was. Frankly, do you know any scum player that has only jumpmasters, so he cannot use those upgrades elsewhere? Or is a new player going to buy only jumpmasters, nothing else? I don't believe.

If the Punishing One title changed to allow any of things now changed with FAQ fix, nothing would have changed in Dengar meta, which appeared to be a problem for more than a year now. This fix is just fine. And if you think that it is unfair that you bought a ship that is worse than when you bought it, know that many of us have Imperial Raiders.

... Did you actually read my proposal in the first post?

To keep the current combos almost invaribly uses both the salvaged astromech and crew slots. The proposal as written is that, in order to let the ship use the upgrades that come in its box, the Punishing One title
lets you take either a crew or salvaged astromech upgrade. One or the other, when the old combos used both.

5 hours ago, apoapsis said:

Torps on the title would be a mistake I think. The original leaked FAQ had the base ship with one torp, then you lost that torp and gained the salvaged astromech with the title, with neither having illicits. I think I'd have preferrred that to what we got, there would be fewer unusable cards in the box.

A single torpedo, on a ship that just paid 12pts to improve its firepower as it was, is relatively safe. Think of all the single-torp-slots-on-a-3-attack-ship we already have that rarely see much use. It was the "Two plasma torpedoes for 6pts, quite possibly to the exclusion of bothering with the title at all" that hit like a truck.

It's clear they carefully neutered the ship in a couple different ways (I for one am glad they left the illict slot on such a scummy ship), and taking the torpedo off the base hull was an excellent choice. Slapping it back on a 12pt title, though, doesn't scare me balance wise, and actually fits closer to the original lore all along.

9 hours ago, Sasajak said:

Let’s all have a break from Jumpmasters. If they are relegated to oblivion then this fix would be a good way to bring them back a little. But please let’s have a break first.

This....let's let the ship that has always been at the top of OP at least just be great for a while before we buff it.....geeeezers.

7 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Maybe I'm a stubborn one, but I am still going to try and keep Dengar relevant. Ffg did not make it easy, but I will not lose that investment!

I assume that you are just an optimistic guy that loves toilet seats or the obscure character and I applaud your enthusiasm. I am assuming you don't want to "lose" your investment you have competitively in the Punishing One Expansion purchase like those who have "lost" their investments in Imperial Firesprays? B-Wings? HWK-290s? Quadjumpers? U-Wings? TIE Bombers? TIE/LNs? or, my favorite money sink: the TIE Punisher? However, if you want to lament the loss of some tournament potential in the face of the outrageous abilities the Punishing One purchase afforded its owners, OK, I get it; but anything resembling requests for sympathy from any previous pilot of these bastardized, game wreckers will be met with abject and well-deserved laughter.

That said, now that the ship has been somewhat brought down to the just "great ship" category in lieu of his previous "super-hero on the illegal juice" status, I may actually put mine on the mat one night soon, probably with Bobba Fett in his Firespray, on a pint night.

I don't really understand the complaint that it is somehow the end of the world that the Jumpmaster now comes with cards it can't use. You people act like the only ships in your collection are all named Jumpmaster. Unless the card says Jumpmaster 5000 Only, they are all intended to also be usable on other ships.

Yeah buying the Jump new is a bit weird now that it includes those other cards, but they aren't somehow a complete waste like the crying about it makes it sound.

As for the title, just leave things alone as is for a while and see how things go. There's a lot of other ships that should be ahead in line for a buff than the Jumpmaster. After we get fixes for the T-65, A Wing, B Wing, U Wing, Tie Punisher, Tie Fighter, blah blah blah, then I'll care about the fix/buff ideas for the Jumpmaster including the title.

20 minutes ago, Joe Censored said:

I don't really understand the complaint that it is somehow the end of the world that the Jumpmaster now comes with cards it can't use. You people act like the only ships in your collection are all named Jumpmaster. Unless the card says Jumpmaster 5000 Only, they are all intended to also be usable on other ships.

Yeah buying the Jump new is a bit weird now that it includes those other cards, but they aren't somehow a complete waste like the crying about it makes it sound.

As for the title, just leave things alone as is for a while and see how things go. There's a lot of other ships that should be ahead in line for a buff than the Jumpmaster. After we get fixes for the T-65, A Wing, B Wing, U Wing, Tie Punisher, Tie Fighter, blah blah blah, then I'll care about the fix/buff ideas for the Jumpmaster including the title.

With the exception of the Most Wanted pack, which was doing a very specific thing, it is unprecedented. Every ship has come with cards that it can use; even if they're really intended for elsewhere in the game, the ship they've released with has been a legal option.

This goes doubly so when the cards are thematically linked to the ship in question; one would be more than a little horrified if Luke Skywalker's T-65 wasn't able to equip the R2D2 that came in the same box, right?

That's the concern. This topic was pondering ways that we could fix that concern without bringing back the old broken combos, and simply including some extra text on a high-priced unique title seemed a good way to do it.

It's also unprecedented for FFG to spend over a year attempting to fix a broken release only for it to continually prove so ludicrously over the line that the nerfs don't keep the chassis from being broken as ****.

And honestly? The people who are going to care about the change are not people who will care about not being able to use all the cards in the box. The competitive types are already so deep it doesn't matter, the casual types wouldn't necessarily know or care about the change.

10 hours ago, Reiver said:

Because half the cards it comes with can no longer be played on the ship. At all.

And yet, Autothrusters came with an entirely unplayable ship!

Doesn't look like that change made the cut. Also, we don't need anymore errata cards until all these misprints get replaced. Yeah, sucks for the jumpmaster, been fun, cya later jumpy.

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

... Did you actually read my proposal in the first post?

To keep the current combos almost invaribly uses both the salvaged astromech and crew slots. The proposal as written is that, in order to let the ship use the upgrades that come in its box, the Punishing One title
lets you take either a crew or salvaged astromech upgrade. One or the other, when the old combos used both.

I did read your initial proposal. It seems to me you are really fond of this ship and that is just fine. I was very fond of Whisper, still play her from time to time. But, I believe the problem was in all maneuvers 3 long that are green, and it has nothing to do with crew slot. I know the hurt. It is not for the current combos, it is for all possible combos that will invariably end up being OP if Unhinged Astromech stays there as a possibility.

But it seems you have not read my post entirely. I have Imperial Raider. And a couple of x7 defenders. And TIE Phantom. Trust me, after a while the hurt fades.