14 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

All this, well bull, about Legion being a miniature hobby and not a game is hilarious....

I agree, there is no requirement to have players paint, model or do anything. Perhaps prize packs can include Alt-Art cards that are awarded to players that give painting a try and to players that help the TO by providing some terrain. But in no way should these be mandatory for the enjoyment of the game just as a game.

9 hours ago, Amanal said:

I agree, there is no requirement to have players paint, model or do anything. Perhaps prize packs can include Alt-Art cards that are awarded to players that give painting a try and to players that help the TO by providing some terrain. But in no way should these be mandatory for the enjoyment of the game just as a game.

And they aren't, look at how many people play 40k with just plain grey plastic.

Now tournaments get interesting. "Industry standard" is having a paint requirement, and good arguments can be made for one - after all tournaments should demonstrate the game at its best, especially visually, so spectators get drawn in more.

However such a requirement is exclusive to those that want to neither paint nor hire a commission artist, which drives away part of the FFG OP audience. FFG has no painting requirements for either IA or Runewars, the two most closely related games in their catalogue. I don't see why they should change their path.

There will be tournaments that require painted armies, but not the FFG OP ones.

I agree....i very much doubt that there will be a painting requirement for official FFG tournaments. They never have before, so there's no real reason to assume they will now.

2 hours ago, Extropia said:

I agree....i very much doubt that there will be a painting requirement for official FFG tournaments. They never have before, so there's no real reason to assume they will now.

Agreed, FFG isn't selling it's own paint (yet) so there isn't a need to use the game to cross market for modeling and painting supplies.

That said, even if they do make one it's usually something like "must be painted with at least 3 colors." That's not hard to make happen, even for the unskilled.

Painting and terrain is not a requirement. You will find the game very boring without painting and terrain however. For those thinking you can plop down a bunch of grey figures and a few barricades on a mat and think the game is going to have depth and be interesting, you are in for a disappointment. It is the painting and terrain that gives the game its depth and makes it fun to play. So to play the game, no requirement, to really enjoy the game, yeah, you kinda want to go all in on the miniatures hobby or just go back to playing X Wing.

I'm not being a troll here. Some people just have unrealistic expectations of what this game is and we need to be honest about what exactly this game actually is and what it is not.

Why would the game lack fun and depth without painting? The rules seem very solid, and once more waves arrive there looks like there will be plenty of depth.

You seem very sure that it's going to b much shallower than x-wing or IA, and I'm not too sure what you're basing it on.

Fact is that x-wing simply doesn't help anybody that wants to play ground combat at all, and IA is a different style of game entirely which plays entirely differently. Your comparison makes little sense to me.

2 hours ago, Extropia said:

Why would the game lack fun and depth without painting?

It'll just require an extra ounce of imagination. You can use boxes and cups for terrain just as easy as detailed 3d Printed model buildings.

And I'm very much of the opinion that an entire army spray painted bright red or blue would work f you don't feel like doing a detailed paint job. In most wargames painting is more about visually unifying your army anyway, be it in matching Space Marine Chapter livery or just making sure all your Panzergrenadiers are wearing a relatively period accurate uniform... So just saying "F-it, I'm on the blue team now" is totally fine...

On 11/20/2017 at 11:25 AM, VanorDM said:

Again, feel free to do whatever you want at home or friendly games, but that will most likely not be allowed at an official event. We could debate endlessly if that's fair or not, but the fact is, that it's FFG's event so they can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like it, that's not really my problem. You either play by the rules or you don't, and if you don't you stand the very real chance of being asked to leave.

Except it very well could be your problem. Officially eliminating any sort of "proxy" completely actually discourages play. The same models can only be looked at for so long before people decide to add their own flavor....at that point what is separating a IA model thats been altered to fit the game from a Legion model that has been customized to look unique?

19 minutes ago, Xodis said:

Except it very well could be your problem. Officially eliminating any sort of "proxy" completely actually discourages play. The same models can only be looked at for so long before people decide to add their own flavor....at that point what is separating a IA model thats been altered to fit the game from a Legion model that has been customized to look unique?

Lol my fully painted models wont get boring to look at. Paint is the flavor everyone needs. Not a different game. This whole thread is so petty and silly.

On 10/25/2017 at 6:56 PM, Mep said:

I realize many people are excited about Legion, it is the new pretty. Certainly those really into miniature games already should be excited about Legion. For everyone else, I think they will be disappointed since they don't quite get what this game actually is.

On 10/26/2017 at 3:00 PM, Mep said:

There are a lot of people very excited for a game they really don't understand.

So let me get this straight: you are able to judge how enjoyable the game is without playing it or seeing the complete ruleset, yet none of us are capable of doing the same?

On 10/25/2017 at 3:39 PM, Mep said:

IA is actually the better game.

On 11/23/2017 at 4:37 PM, Mep said:

For the "gamer elitists", since we need to use that word, thinking they can just plop down a game mat, a few barricades and unpainted minis and really enjoy this game, well, lets just say there are going to be far more people buying this game than actually playing it. You are going to be happier with a game like X-Wing or Armada than this game. If IA didn't do it for you, this game certainly won't. You guys really don't have realistic expectations of this game.

4 hours ago, Mep said:

So to play the game, no requirement, to really enjoy the game, yeah, you kinda want to go all in on the miniatures hobby or just go back to playing X Wing.

I'm not being a troll here. Some people just have unrealistic expectations of what this game is and we need to be honest about what exactly this game actually is and what it is not.

You can dismiss a game that you've never played as inferior to Imperial Assault and you can tell people to "just go back to playing X-Wing, yet we are the "gaming elitists"?

On 11/10/2017 at 4:56 PM, Mep said:

Your ego shouldn't get so bruised because someone likes a different game a bit better.

No kidding. That's awesome that you enjoy the games you do, and I'm happy for you. It's just rather tiresome that you keep repeating over and over how Legion is not going to be a good game. You've told us a few times already.

To be honest, this thread fulfilled its purpose long ago, and I don't know that I have anything else to say in it. If you want to talk about painting tips, wishlist and speculate about future expansions, discuss gameplay mechanics, or theory-craft possible lists and strategies, I look forward to talking with you more in another thread.

Boring conversation anyway...

Mep,

I’m not sure if you realize this, but not everyone begins their journey into table top wargaming fully equipped to paint an army or the associated terrain, much less a single model. Any person that has that requirement to play against them or in their store or in their tournament really doesn’t have their priorities straight. IA may not, Xwing may not, and numerous other games that have prepainted models may not include the hobby element that Legion will, but they are of the same ilk and attract the same type of people. Some will be taking their first stab at the hobby side of wargaming and your constant diatribe of the “this games not for you” or “you’ll hate the game if you don’t paint” really doesn’t do much to inspire people to start here.

People can make up their own minds about what the game is. Their is ample material available and the boxes will be clearly marked that the miniatures come unpainted and that the terrain is not included. FFG is not pulling any fast ones here and they are not the first company to sell an unpainted miniatures based war game. Your cries of truth and justice amount to chicken little saying the sky is falling.

You have the opportunity to either encourage people into the hobby or chase them off and you seem to choose the latter.

Maybe it’s just me and I don’t know who you are or how important you are. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you seem rather incapable of accepting other people where they are at in their hobby career.

3 hours ago, AldousSnow said:

Lol my fully painted models wont get boring to look at. Paint is the flavor everyone needs. Not a different game. This whole thread is so petty and silly.

Lol, you must be new to wargaming. All the top games have players who customize, its a major part of the hobby in the first place. Painting, modeling, and playing is essentially what it all breaks down to. Assuming these models are not mono-pose, will lengthen it, but there will always be players (assuming the game grows like I think it will) who want their Republic army to be different than your Republic army and so forth, and a simple coat of paint doesnt always do it.

1 hour ago, Xodis said:

Lol, you must be new to wargaming. All the top games have players who customize, its a major part of the hobby in the first place. Painting, modeling, and playing is essentially what it all breaks down to. Assuming these models are not mono-pose, will lengthen it, but there will always be players (assuming the game grows like I think it will) who want their Republic army to be different than your Republic army and so forth, and a simple coat of paint doesnt always do it.

I feel the same as you, especially at this scale. Even at 15mm, figs aren't quite as customizable, but basing can individualized and themed. My first company for Flames of War had generic dirt basing with some static grass and foam bushes. Now I'm planning out companies as a whole, so when paint jobs get judged, my company has a unified and thematic feel. The eye-candy aspect of miniature wargaming is a big factor in attracting attention and ultimately to sales.

Hopefully the game is fun. If it is a good game then all the painting and customizing will only add to the experience and your satisfaction.

For all of you players scared or put off by the prospect of painting, I understand. All of us started somewhere. Just try it, simple base coat and a wash, drybrush or dip. Keep practicing and you'll get better. I now, after 12 years of wargaming, dislike fielding an unfinished army, but I don't mind playing against one, and I'll bring one myself if I have too. And even if someone gets upset about playing against an unpainted army, that his or her's problem. I've read that same sentiment on this board, so don't worry if you're painting skills are slow, or aren't as good as someone else's. Most people you'll play aren't going to pitch a fit if you bring some ninjas or silver surfers to the field.

For me, learning to paint, theme and customize has increased my enjoyment of playing miniatures games. There is an immense pride and satisfaction at playing a good rules set with an army that you hand painted.

1 hour ago, Xodis said:

Lol, you must be new to wargaming. All the top games have players who customize, its a major part of the hobby in the first place. Painting, modeling, and playing is essentially what it all breaks down to. Assuming these models are not mono-pose, will lengthen it, but there will always be players (assuming the game grows like I think it will) who want their Republic army to be different than your Republic army and so forth, and a simple coat of paint doesnt always do it.

Been playing since the 80s, son.

16 hours ago, Mep said:

Painting and terrain is not a requirement. You will find the game very boring without painting and terrain however. For those thinking you can plop down a bunch of grey figures and a few barricades on a mat and think the game is going to have depth and be interesting, you are in for a disappointment. It is the painting and terrain that gives the game its depth and makes it fun to play. So to play the game, no requirement, to really enjoy the game, yeah, you kinda want to go all in on the miniatures hobby or just go back to playing X Wing.

I'm not being a troll here. Some people just have unrealistic expectations of what this game is and we need to be honest about what exactly this game actually is and what it is not.

You can get by with books and boxes. Seriously, playing with gray plastic, barricades, and some books on your table will be a perfectly fine way to enjoy this game, since the rules look very solid and engaging. Doesn't prevent players from getting into the hobby side of things later on gradually, either.

I don't get where Mep is pulling this stuff from. There are plenty of hobby miniature games that are barely worth playing. GW being the best consistent example of this style of "game" in name only. There are also plenty of full fledged hobby miniature games that are worth investing in for the game alone. I played Warmachine for years, competitively, and I painted like half a list in total.

Where Legion falls is a complete unknown as we all know next to nothing about the actual gameplay. But what we do know is the FFG is a game company and there's no reason based on their track record to assume that they all of a sudden stopped caring about the game portion of their products.

To make the assumption Mep is making is untenable at this juncture. Hobby miniature games as he is portraying them is not the reality of the genre.

44 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

To make the assumption Mep is making is untenable at this juncture. Hobby miniature games as he is portraying them is not the reality of the genre.

I have played years of Warmachine, Infinity and several others too, and couldn't agree more.

Tabletop games and shallow games are not synonymous.

Yeah, your typical X Wing player that passed up on Imperial Assault because the minis weren't painted and are now asking that the minis be prepainted are very hyped about Legion are in for a big surprise. For those that are in to mini hobbies and games, my comments aren't directed at you. You know what you are getting into, although it is interesting you get very upset and defensive about remarks that don't apply to you. There are other things to get out raged about. Yes, there will be people brought into the miniatures hobby because of this game. Yes, the game will make for a fine miniatures hobby although without the license I doubt it would do much. There are many people that will pick this game up thinking it is one thing and finding out it is something different. I stand by my assessment that Legion will sell great at the beginning and many of those copies will find their way onto ebay or sit in a closet collecting dust.

20 hours ago, ShadowKite said:

You can dismiss a game that you've never played as inferior to Imperial Assault and you can tell people to "just go back to playing X-Wing, yet we are the "gaming elitists"?

The "elitists" was into response for someone using the term "hobby elitists", "since we are going to use that term". Before you go criticizing someone you might want to pay attention and understanding what is actually being said first. "Elitist" is a horrible term in my opinion, which I am sure everyone will be happy to disagree with.

BTW, FFG did a wonderful job demoing their game and explaining it. For those that paid attention, they should know exactly what this game is. Also, I didn't say it was going to be a bad game, I said many people will find it boring if things aren't all prettied up. With good paints and terrain, Legion will be awesome. With gray models, a few barricades and some, umm books I guess, yeah, a game like X Wing will be more interesting to play. Also, saying Imperial Assault is a better game because it is more accessible isn't a knock on Legion. X-Wing is a better game than Armada because it is more accessible, hence why more people play X Wing. This does not make Armada a bad game and some prefer a less accessible game.

The point is, there are plenty of Star Wars games now that use miniatures. For those that are going to fully embrace what Legion actually is, they will probably be very happy with it. For those wanting X Wing with stormtroopers and getting exited over the new pretty FFG put out, they will be disappointed.

On 11/25/2017 at 1:50 AM, AldousSnow said:

Been playing since the 80s, son.

Which means you only play within your own small community so your experience "since the 80's" is narrow. GW and every successful Tabletop wargame has already acknowledged that allowing players the ability to customize their army (with more than just paint) has gone a long way to bringing in new players and even keeping established players purchasing new models. So while the basic build/paint may work for YOU, dont try and speak as if thats the norm, when there is clear evidence contrary.

25 minutes ago, Xodis said:

Which means you only play within your own small community so your experience "since the 80's" is narrow. GW and every successful Tabletop wargame has already acknowledged that allowing players the ability to customize their army (with more than just paint) has gone a long way to bringing in new players and even keeping established players purchasing new models. So while the basic build/paint may work for YOU, dont try and speak as if thats the norm, when there is clear evidence contrary.

Hahahaha, let me teach you something about life. It seems you have predications about certain topics, and assume you know where others are coming from without any information. My quick original comment was that I do not agree that the elimination of proxies or customization of minis using pieces outside of the Legion world would "completely actually discourage play". And I dont agree with this because the game isnt out yet. The rules aren't out yet. The tournament rules aren't out yet. The games many expansions arent out yet. The time passing that you assume will case players to have to "add their own flavor"... it hasnt happened. What if FFG ships with alt sculpts. What if they release trooper expansions with new poses. What if they... anything? We dont know. Because the game isnt out. What i do know is that they are not keen on mixing IA because its in a different scale. So we can all just drop it to be honest.

Now on assuming you know everything about everyone on the internet, my GW Necron army is 1000 units strong. A large number of my troops are customized with magnetic arms, so weapons, and in some cases, heads can be swapped. My "small community" consists of myself living and playing from Detroit, Chicago, and Currently LA. And GW allowing players to customize doesn't automatically keep players buying. I stopped. For 1001 reasons. Doesnt matter. But you speak so sure of everything, when you're stabbing into the dark with speculation; about the game and people. Think before you speak. Have a good day.

There is also nothing that says either officially they wont impose a minimum 3 color rule or that individual TOs wont make painted rules a requirement. This is a hobby game more so than any other ffg SW games have had in the past. I have never been to a bolt action or GW tournament that didn't require minimum paint. I take that back, I have, but the unpainted armies were ineligible to be overall winner with a grey plastic army because of painting scores. Now granted most players will never step foot into a tournament, not wanting to deal with the min maxer power gamers that typically crowd those events, so for the average player painting wont be a must have for casual games or more likely they will spend more time painting than they do playing.

On 11/24/2017 at 8:39 PM, Xodis said:

Officially eliminating any sort of "proxy" completely actually discourages play.

Yes, that's why X-Wing has been such a massive failure so far...

2 hours ago, Col. Dash said:

There is also nothing that says either officially they wont impose a minimum 3 color rule or that individual TOs wont make painted rules a requirement. This is a hobby game more so than any other ffg SW games have had in the past. I have never been to a bolt action or GW tournament that didn't require minimum paint. I take that back, I have, but the unpainted armies were ineligible to be overall winner with a grey plastic army because of painting scores. Now granted most players will never step foot into a tournament, not wanting to deal with the min maxer power gamers that typically crowd those events, so for the average player painting wont be a must have for casual games or more likely they will spend more time painting than they do playing.

There is no reason to expect FFG to have painting scores. GW isn't a game company, they go out of there way to remind you of that. Because their games are so weak they have utilized sportsmanship score, army composition scores, and painting scores to hide how bad the actual game play is. FFG is a game company why assume they abandon that with Legion?

Hobby miniature games don't universally have painting requirements or painting scores. Many are more then fine not hiding the weakness of their game rules behind the rest if hobby.

Didn't say they did universally but many do. Plus FFG isn't the one running individual tournaments, the TO is and since these take place typically at local stores, the owner themself may have their input that they have to be painted in order to advertise(seen it before). What you call a weak game is the top selling miniature hobby war game on the market. Bolt Action is right up there as well and is a far from weak game. Painting scores simply allow for people who want to compete in part of the gaming aspect but not reduce themselves to being just another WAAC tournament player. Most tournies I have been in have painting(usually done in blind voting at a lunch break), sportsman, best general, and overall winner(combined score) as the awards and it works fine. You obviously like the tournament scene, great have fun with your net lists and those style of tournaments. The skill is on the hobby side of things provided you aren't paying someone else to paint it for you.