Don’t forget, all that was being paid was 1 pt per ship (and the opportunity cost too). 1 point... so stress proof action and crazy levels of dice manipulation across a match for 1 point per ship. Scum ships to boot too.

Maybe the nerf’s a bit (lot) more reasonable if you can take a step back from your owns lists and realize how much it was the rich getting richer... and how bad that is for the game and the meta

Just now, Lobokai said:

Don’t forget, all that was being paid was 1 pt per ship (and the opportunity cost too). 1 point... so stress proof action and crazy levels of dice manipulation across a match for 1 point per ship. Scum ships to boot too.

Maybe the nerf’s a bit (lot) more reasonable if you can take a step back from your owns lists and realize how much it was the rich getting richer... and how bad that is for the game and the meta

Tell me how this list was the rich getting richer:

2x TPV with Ion Cannon

2x PS5 Fang with title, Autothrusters

All with Mindlink.

Hint: it wasn't, it was the poor getting somewhere near parity.

Smart move by FFG I think.

The 10 Black Sun Aces with Vaksai title, Harpoon, Scav Crane, Guidance Chips and Mindlink with a support Contracted Scout with Mindlink was about to break the game so much that we would have enough salt to dissolve the North Pole.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Tell me how this list was the rich getting richer:

2x TPV with Ion Cannon

2x PS5 Fang with title, Autothrusters

All with Mindlink.

Hint: it wasn't, it was the poor getting somewhere near parity.

It's weird how putting OP cards on bad ships makes them okay, right? Even stranger- putting OP cards on OP ships makes them even more OP! That list was dirt-poor through it's own mistakes. FenGar (with Inaldra filler) was absurdly rich with reliability.

25 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Hint: it wasn't, it was the poor getting somewhere near parity.

Hint: you came up with 4 well spent points in that list, the rest is a pretty weak strawman

So 4 Avenger Interceptors is an argument that autothrusters aren’t good enough? I guess integrated astromech is a bad choice too since T65s aren’t strong?

What the strawman? Nice job arguing against points I wasn't making, both of you, really.

My point is that Mindlink in its original form could have been nerfed in such a way as to remain a patch for otherwise mediocre scum EPT generics and cheap named pilots, whilststill killing Parattani.

For instance, by making it remove pilot abilities whilst other mindlinkers are alive, making it unify every mindlinker at the lowest living pilot skill, by making it make turns white, etc etc etc.

There were a number of ways it could have been fixed to allow it to keep giving some life to otherwise mediocre ships without keeping it broken for the broken ones.

The nerf they did apply isn't bad - and is necessary - it just could have been done better in a way that allowed more flexibility for Scum listbuilding afterwards.

@thespaceinvader well maybe make the point next time, there’s a reason we didn’t argue the point you wanted to make...

That being said, once made, fair point. I wasn’t saying that I liked the nerf without reservation either. All I was pointing out, was that at 1 point, Attani was swinging way too far above that 1 point weight and to keep perspective on that while bemoaning it’s reduction in potency.

With that much efficiency (in both actions and points) being dumped onto ships like Fenn and Dengar (even if they’re not top dogs in today’s meta) that were already very efficient... everyone had to know a correction was coming. And in this case, a pretty soft one compared to Biggs, Palp, Maneroo, etc.

edit: that being said, with Nym and KWings taking a hit, maybe FFG for once looked past their FAQ to its consequences and thought Attani would again become a top upgrade and got ahead of that problem after putting bombs down a few notches. Time will tell... Bold move for them.

The point was to point out that there were plenty of mindlink lists where it wasn't about the rich getting richer, it was about the poor getting parity. That point was completely ignored.

As I say, I'm happy to see it fixed, even if it wasn't fixed to my personal preferences. I can shrug and drop those lists, much as I'd prefer not to have to.

I would have rather seen it have a range of effectiveness instead of limiting the number of ships that can equip. Range 1-2 or Range 1 only.

I was using Attanni back when wave 8 released; everyone told me it was crap but I persisted.

From trying many different squad set ups with it; in my opinion it's not worth it on two ships.

* As soon as one ship dies you have a dead EPT

* Two EPT slots that generate One extra focus per round is a big opportunity cost for a small benefit.

* The shared stress hurts a lot more with only two ships.

Ideally, you would want a pair of tough ships that were pretty punchy to make Attanni work in a two ship list. I've tried Brobots, after playing many other variations of on them, with Attanni. It isn't worth it as compared to Crackshot/FCS/HLC or running PtL/Adv Sensors/Mangler. They need to sloop too often and while they have plenty of greens, they aren't quite good enough where you would want to put yourself into a situation where they get extra stress.

The issue with Attanni has always been the JM5K platform. I't would have been better had it being made small ship only or removing the EPT slot from the Contracted Scout. Limiting it to 2 ships makes it an all but dead card. The only cases I can see for taking it are with pilots that have other ways to generate Focus tokens like Guri, Palob, Genesis Red, or Kaa'to. Even then, those pilots are generally tier 2.

I'd love to be proven wrong; I've enjoyed flying a variety of Mindlink lists, but I don't see why I wouldn't take Crackshot, VI, Adaptability, or A Score to Settle instead on just about anything.

Thweek

58 minutes ago, smccaughan said:

Thweek

Doesn't have an EPT

For me the fun of this card has just died. It may still be useful but not as fun. Since it came out and was written off as a dud I’ve loved playing around with janky builds using mindlink. Now all are RIP. Gone the way of my kavil with mindlink, blaster turret and agromech combo after the first nerf targeted at jumps.

1 hour ago, Burius1981 said:

Doesn't have an EPT

not saying that...... saying you take thweek and a 2 ship attani list

4 hours ago, Burius1981 said:

The issue with Attanni has always been the JM5K platform. I't would have been better had it being made small ship only or removing the EPT slot from the Contracted Scout. Limiting it to 2 ships makes it an all but dead card. The only cases I can see for taking it are with pilots that have other ways to generate Focus tokens like Guri, Palob, Genesis Red, or Kaa'to. Even then, those pilots are generally tier 2.

Here I actually have to disagree. Mindlink was crap on jumpmasters when they were released, because there were much better options like deadeye ;-)

Only after all those other upgrades had been nerfed attani arrived on non-manaroo jumpmasters. Furthermore attani rocked the house with a lot of tier 1 small ship like Fen. And it rocked on generics because it had an heavy increase in action efficiency the more ships you could add, which favored generics over more expensive ships.

Anyway, back to PTL for protectorates

On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 10:06 PM, AngryAlbatross said:

I foresee that Brotanni will be a thing. Its still great on them.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The Brobots sloop themselves all the time and though they have decent greens, Attanni has never been a premium choice for our cold metal assassins. That won't change. Especially with all of the well-tested better options for those two EPT slots...

Also worth noting that brobots don't need to stay cheap. You can't fit a useful third ship in with them, especially now that 3 ship mindlink doesn't work so 2 bros and Ina isn't a thing (not that it ever was, but it conceivably might have been), so they don't have the incentive to skimp that some lists do.

I'm surprised Expertise Brobots haven't been a thing yet. Expertise FCS seems pretty great for them.

20 hours ago, smccaughan said:

not saying that...... saying you take thweek and a 2 ship attani list

Worth a shot I guess, I like Thweek though I'm not sure if he is competitive yet.

Still, why take mindlink when you can take other options? Fenn and Inaldra Mindlinked gives Fenn a free focus every turn but why not save 12 points and give Fenn PtL so he can boost and barrel roll in the same activation?

I haven't explored it a whole lot in the last few months though. What ideas did you have?

18 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Here I actually have to disagree. Mindlink was crap on jumpmasters when they were released, because there were much better options like deadeye ;-)

Only after all those other upgrades had been nerfed attani arrived on non-manaroo jumpmasters. Furthermore attani rocked the house with a lot of tier 1 small ship like Fen. And it rocked on generics because it had an heavy increase in action efficiency the more ships you could add, which favored generics over more expensive ships.

Anyway, back to PTL for protectorates

Deadeye + R4 on Scouts was super easy mode. Attanni was only marginally more difficult. I don't think that Mindlink was crap on JM5Ks ever, people just overlooked Mindlink for a year or so because they over emphasized the stress drawback. All I heard from local know-it-alls when I was running mindlink was about how bad it was... and then I won a tournament with it and they clammed up.

Every list that was winning big tournaments that included Mindlink also had a Jumpmaster in it. That's not a coincidence. No Mindlinked Scyk swarms, no Mindlinked triple Fangs, generally no mindlink lists that were all small ships. There was always a Jumpmaster in the successful lists that used mindlink. OldManFenn, Parattanni, Dengar-Fenn-Inaldra,Triple Mindlink Scouts, OldDuncansJohnson.

If they had just made Mindlink small ship only it would have been a fair nerf where Mindlink might still be worth running.

Yep, back to PtL for Protectorates Because why bother with Mindlink?

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Also worth noting that brobots don't need to stay cheap. You can't fit a useful third ship in with them, especially now that 3 ship mindlink doesn't work so 2 bros and Ina isn't a thing (not that it ever was, but it conceivably might have been), so they don't have the incentive to skimp that some lists do.

I'm surprised Expertise Brobots haven't been a thing yet. Expertise FCS seems pretty great for them.

The main drawback for Expertise when running Brobots is that you have to S-Loop a fair amount of time to get shots and stay in the fight. The stress cuts off Expertise. Second, at 4 points it is a very expensive EPT and probably limits your cannon to a Mangler. It is really handy to have at least one HLC to help get past 3 Agi ships with plenty of tokens like x/7 Defenders or, lately in my area, Vader.

Right now, bombs are still pretty good and Brobots get rekt by bombs. Big base, no native barrel roll. They like all the low Agi ships to shoot at though.

18 minutes ago, Burius1981 said:

Worth a shot I guess, I like Thweek though I'm not sure if he is competitive yet.

Still, why take mindlink when you can take other options? Fenn and Inaldra Mindlinked gives Fenn a free focus every turn but why not save 12 points and give Fenn PtL so he can boost and barrel roll in the same activation?

I haven't explored it a whole lot in the last few months though. What ideas did you have?

1 minute ago, smccaughan said:

Unnamed Squadron (100)

Thweek — StarViper	28
Plasma Torpedoes	3
Autothrusters	2
StarViper Mk. II	-3
Ship Total: 30
Fenn Rau — Protectorate Starfighter	28
Attanni Mindlink	1
Plasma Torpedoes	3
Autothrusters	2
Concord Dawn Protector	1
Ship Total: 35
Guri — StarViper	30
Attanni Mindlink	1
Fire-Control System	2
Glitterstim	2
Autothrusters	2
StarViper Mk. II	-3
Virago	1
Ship Total: 35

Guri has a special place in my heart and I really enjoy Fenn.

Using a pilot like Guri, Palob, Kaa'to, or Genesis Red as the anchor in a Mindlink pair is the best way to go in my opinion. I like what you have here.

Competitively though, I wouldn't take it to a tournament. Nym and Miranda are still slinging bombs that could all too easily take out Fenn or either of the Vipers.

9 minutes ago, Burius1981 said:

Guri has a special place in my heart and I really enjoy Fenn.

Using a pilot like Guri, Palob, Kaa'to, or Genesis Red as the anchor in a Mindlink pair is the best way to go in my opinion. I like what you have here.

Competitively though, I wouldn't take it to a tournament. Nym and Miranda are still slinging bombs that could all too easily take out Fenn or either of the Vipers.

Nah not competitive. But it could be fun.

I like this as well.

100 points even.

3 minutes ago, smccaughan said:

I like this as well.

Asajj Ventress — Lancer-class Pursuit Craft	37
Attanni Mindlink	1
Latts Razzi	2
Rigged Cargo Chute	1
Rigged Cargo Chute	1
Gyroscopic Targeting	2
Shadow Caster	3
Ship Total: 47
Dengar — JumpMaster 5000	33
Attanni Mindlink	1
K4 Security Droid	3
Engine Upgrade	4
Punishing One	12
Ship Total: 53

100 points even.

I like that one better. The synergy with Mindlink is better.