21 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Okay, that legit sucks. :/ But that's what happens when the pricing is "based" on the relative power of the ships, instead of their availability in lore. Rarer and more powerful ships become the staple, because we don't field a whole galaxy wide army, just a couple of ships. This means we will see more Silencers than TIE/LN-s.

I think the nerfs are harsh, but necessary for a balanced game. It's a shame about the Punishing One, but if that's the price of a more diverse game... so be it.

They didn't nerf the Punishing One, they nerfed the Jumpmaster. What I'm saying is that I would prefer they gave the upgrades back to the title to make up for their lack on the ship; Torpedos on a Punishing One are largely superfluous anyway, and having to pay 12pts to get the Astromech slot ... well, there's far less in the way of broken combos with the 12pt primary gun anyway.

Just now, Reiver said:

They didn't nerf the Punishing One, they nerfed the Jumpmaster. What I'm saying is that I would prefer they gave the upgrades back to the title to make up for their lack on the ship; Torpedos on a Punishing One are largely superfluous anyway, and having to pay 12pts to get the Astromech slot ... well, there's far less in the way of broken combos with the 12pt primary gun anyway.

I understand what you mean

I'm just saying the Jumpmaster needs to be mediocre at best. The Punishing One needs to be more powerful, (as it is with the lore), and since it is unlikely that it's getting the things we've seen in the leak, it is the one taking the unexpected "hit". It is the sacrificial lamb to please the Gunboat.

42 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Not even close to OP anymore. They're finally priced in line with their closest analogues: the Wild Space Fringer and the Outer Rim Smuggler. It was obscene that the JM5K basically just traded a point of shielding, a missile and a cannon slot for two Torpedoes, an astromech, an Illicit slot, an EPT and a point of pilot skill, while also clocking in at five points cheaper than the Fringer, and was better in every category but crew space compared to the ORS.

Now the Fringer is a much better comp, especially with Smuggling Compartments to give it an Illicit slot. For five points and -1 PS, you get a Shield Upgrade, a cannon slot and a missile. That's closer to being fair.

It'll need to be seen if Dengar is still strong without free K4 target locks after a speed-3 maneuver, but he still has a great pilot ability, high pilot skill, and a decent statline.

Both the fringer and the ORS are overpriced- The problem was that the Jumpmaster overcorrected for the pricing. It probably should have been 27-28 points for a Contracted scout with a 28 point Fringer.

Any game where the FAQ is longer than the rules themselves has clearly lost its way and has problems

In my view half of those problems have been caused by converting the bounty hunters, a fringe part of Star Wars, into a third military faction, something that in the films they clearly weren't, in order to squeeze more money out of the game.

Nevertheless we are where we are and a balancing FAQ that fixes the game's current problems seems to be the lesser of two evils.

31 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Any game where the FAQ is longer than the rules themselves has clearly lost its way and has problems

In my view half of those problems have been caused by converting the bounty hunter s, a fringe part of Star Wars, into a third military faction, something that in the films they clearly weren't, in order to squeeze more money out of the game.

Nevertheless we are where we are and a balancing FAQ that fixes the game's current problems seems to be the lesser of two evils.

The bounty hunters are only part of the faction. It also includes pirates (some of whom actually ARE practically miliatary factions in the EU), black sun (ditto), the hutts, etc.

4 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

I can't feel sorry for people who buy things because they are OP. I bought all my ships because I liked them, and I play them still, even if they are not great. My Punisher is one of my most frequently played ship.

If you bought triple jumpmasters, or even the raider, not because you wanted to play it, but because of the power it represented, you had it coming. If you only care about being powerful, and selectively buy the most broken things out there, don't be surprised if your **** is keep getting nerfed.

If your priority was about cool ships, you would rarely run into this problem.

And I pity people who refuse to play cards which create fun lists, just because they come packaged in toilete seats. 4 Ships with Mindlink was a fun lists, strong as well, but mainly a fun way to reanimate crappy overcost scum fighters and weak generics. If you wanted to fly stuff like old man rau or cad solus and his 3 concord dawn veteran buddies than you need two jumpmasters. One rather useless one, but FFG insisted on packaging a card only useful with 3 or more in packs of two per jumpmaster expansion.

Now with the raider I am actually with you. That the power level of a card can get adjusted is fair game imho. That your whole reason you paid an expansion gets removed at the other hand ... that is a total different matter. And I mean literally making it unplayable, not just adjusting the power level. You can not play 4 mindlink ships anymore, you only need two of those cards. It like removing the 3 epic point ships from team epic as option. All the team epic player would be rightfully pissed, especially those who actually just bought expansions to play them in team epic.

13 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

And I pity people who refuse to play cards which create fun lists, just because they come packaged in toilete seats. 4 Ships with Mindlink was a fun lists, strong as well, but mainly a fun way to reanimate crappy overcost scum fighters and weak generics. If you wanted to fly stuff like old man rau or cad solus and his 3 concord dawn veteran buddies than you need two jumpmasters. One rather useless one, but FFG insisted on packaging a card only useful with 3 or more in packs of two per jumpmaster expansion.

Now with the raider I am actually with you. That the power level of a card can get adjusted is fair game imho. That your whole reason you paid an expansion gets removed at the other hand ... that is a total different matter. And I mean literally making it unplayable, not just adjusting the power level. You can not play 4 mindlink ships anymore, you only need two of those cards. It like removing the 3 epic point ships from team epic as option. All the team epic player would be rightfully pissed, especially those who actually just bought expansions to play them in team epic.

The Mindlink fix is both thematic (a rare piece of tech used by Manaroo and Dengar. Not something every last pirate has.) and balanced. It just had way too much opportunities for abuse as it was. It was a gimmick. It could be used to empower older, less powerful ships, which wasn't the problem.

The problem was that it could also be used to empower already powerful ships, gaining exponentially greater effect the more ships it affected.

Sometimes nerfing something powerful will drag the less powerful lists with it. But we must look back and smile at perils past, mustn't we?

4 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

I can't feel sorry for people who buy things because they are OP. I bought all my ships because I liked them, and I play them still, even if they are not great. My Punisher is one of my most frequently played ship.

If you bought triple jumpmasters, or even the raider, not because you wanted to play it, but because of the power it represented, you had it coming. If you only care about being powerful, and selectively buy the most broken things out there, don't be surprised if your **** is keep getting nerfed.

If your priority was about cool ships, you would rarely run into this problem.

Agreed. I've never been affected negatively by any errata. I fly what I like. I win. Maybe not often, but every dog has his day.

My brother still thinks it's worth it to take the Punishing One title.

Still as in her thought that before the nerf.

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

I understand what you mean

I'm just saying the Jumpmaster needs to be mediocre at best. The Punishing One needs to be more powerful, (as it is with the lore), and since it is unlikely that it's getting the things we've seen in the leak, it is the one taking the unexpected "hit". It is the sacrificial lamb to please the Gunboat.

I am reading "The Mandalorian Armor" right now. It clearly talks about how he took a regular scout ship and customized the he-ll out of it to create the punishing one.

I have no problem with the nerf itself. Outside that mindlink is now overcost. 2 points for an action is fine, but two EPTs is not. Others already mentioned that a condition variant would have worked fine too ;-)

My problem is that the way they balanced it directly contra the initial design which had synergies for larger lists at cheap prices for the action economy. People literally bought extra jumpmaster expansions just for more mindlink to play those lists. It is literally a ban for some types of lists. So I really don't like the approach of FFGs "FAQ errata".

Making mindlink useless for competitive lists is completely fine by me.

edit:

I give you an equivalent example what FFG could have done during wave 1 or 2.

"The maximum amount of same ships to use is reduced to 4 in standard play". Tada, OP TIE-Swarms fixed! Now the people who actually bought 8 TIEs are pissed. FAQ 4.4 did with Mindlink did basically the same just with upgrade instead of pilot cards.

33 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I have no problem with the nerf itself. Outside that mindlink is now overcost. 2 points for an action is fine, but two EPTs is not. Others already mentioned that a condition variant would have worked fine too ;-)

My problem is that the way they balanced it directly contra the initial design which had synergies for larger lists at cheap prices for the action economy. People literally bought extra jumpmaster expansions just for more mindlink to play those lists. It is literally a ban for some types of lists. So I really don't like the approach of FFGs "FAQ errata".

Making mindlink useless for competitive lists is completely fine by me.

edit:

I give you an equivalent example what FFG could have done during wave 1 or 2.

"The maximum amount of same ships to use is reduced to 4 in standard play". Tada, OP TIE-Swarms fixed! Now the people who actually bought 8 TIEs are pissed. FAQ 4.4 did with Mindlink did basically the same just with upgrade instead of pilot cards.

If you're worried about the banning of lists, this is the third time they've attempted to ban Triple U-boats.
Of course, this time they succeeded.

2 hours ago, Reiver said:

They didn't nerf the Punishing One, they nerfed the Jumpmaster. What I'm saying is that I would prefer they gave the upgrades back to the title to make up for their lack on the ship; Torpedos on a Punishing One are largely superfluous anyway, and having to pay 12pts to get the Astromech slot ... well, there's far less in the way of broken combos with the 12pt primary gun anyway.

No Buffs only nerfs, No rewards only punishment. Such is the lessons of the Sith.

Just now, Reiver said:

If you're worried about the banning of lists, this is the third time they've attempted to ban Triple U-boats.
Of course, this time they succeeded.

Actually, I have already some new triple scout lists, more frustrating than the old ones. Oh and one dengar + two mindlink ships with cruise missile spam

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually, I have already some new triple scout lists, more frustrating than the old ones. Oh and one dengar + two mindlink ships with cruise missile spam

... are hardly triple torpedo boats, are they?

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Actually, I have already some new triple scout lists, more frustrating than the old ones. Oh and one dengar + two mindlink ships with cruise missile spam

Can't wait for Dengar Nym to be the new Meta, Then we will get a Pilot skill 8 Dengar, plus We will get the Jumpmaster Dial Errata that is needed.

6 minutes ago, Reiver said:

... are hardly triple torpedo boats, are they?

Nah, just good old bumpmasters with trickshot ;-)

Though the cruise missiles list rolls actually more than 13 hits on average in a single turn. °_^

38 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

"The maximum amount of same ships to use is reduced to 4 in standard play". Tada, OP TIE-Swarms fixed! Now the people who actually bought 8 TIEs are pissed. FAQ 4.4 did with Mindlink did basically the same just with upgrade instead of pilot cards.

The difference is, the TIE swarm was dominant in a meta where there were MUCH FEWER ships. In wave 1, there were 4 ships. There wasn't too much of variety, and when future waves released, the power of the TIE swarm became less obvious, eventually becoming much weaker as more and more answers were given to that style of play.


Equating the two is missing the context. The TIE swarm was powerful because it had to compete in a limited environment. By the time jumpmasters were released there were 31 other, different ships.

15 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Can't wait for Dengar Nym to be the new Meta, Then we will get a Pilot skill 8 Dengar, plus We will get the Jumpmaster Dial Errata that is needed.

You're upset about the pilot card losing upgrade slots, but are comfortable with changing dials ?

Just now, RufusDaMan said:

The difference is, the TIE swarm was dominant in a meta where there were MUCH FEWER ships. In wave 1, there were 4 ships. There wasn't too much of variety, and when future waves released, the power of the TIE swarm became less obvious, eventually becoming much weaker as more and more answers were given to that style of play.


Equating the two is missing the context. The TIE swarm was powerful because it had to compete in a limited environment. By the time jumpmasters were released there were 31 other, different ships.

You are missing the point. And most likely intentionally, because you don't like it. I am not talking about the power level. For all I care, they could have increased attani to 3 points.
It is the method which is wrong. That is completely unrelated to how strong the card now is.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

You are missing the point. And most likely intentionally, because you don't like it. I am not talking about the power level. For all I care, they could have increased attani to 3 points.
It is the method which is wrong. That is completely unrelated to how strong the card now is.

Experimental Interface was, in some languages, non-unique on the date of sale.
Deadeye used to fit on Large ships.

Upgrade cards have been open season on being arbitarily restricted (well, okay, the EI one was a typo, but from the perspective of the buyers at the time...) for a long time. The big change is they're starting to radically rewrite the ships too.

Just now, Reiver said:

You're upset about the pilot card losing upgrade slots, but are comfortable with changing dials ?

Why not? It would be just as easy, the print medium of the game has been all but abandoned by FFG. The only thing that really is keeping the game in the physical realm is the aesthetics of the models.

There were a lot of radical suggestions that I was opposed because it went against the original business model FFG had set with their expansion packs, but now that this last FAQ has blown that all over to where not every upgrade cards in an expansion pack can be used with the model what else is there. This NerF.A.Q. is more radical than FFG announcing Random Booster card packs for X-wing, which as of now I would approve.

Yeah I'm upset but now there is no point into fighting against Tzeentch for change is eternal. So at this point anything and everything can be subject to change and perhaps should come more often.

1 minute ago, Reiver said:

Experimental Interface was, in some languages, non-unique on the date of sale.
Deadeye used to fit on Large ships.

Upgrade cards have been open season on being arbitarily restricted (well, okay, the EI one was a typo, but from the perspective of the buyers at the time...) for a long time. The big change is they're starting to radically rewrite the ships too.

EI would actually fit as well if it would not have been a typo. Actually it fits even in that case. Someone buying 5 expansions for EI, just to get an FAQ that he can only use one is a slap into the face. A much larger than just changing point costs. It creates much larger issues for players bringing illegal squads as well. So at this point they indeed could have changed just the points of cards directly, they starting to rewrite complete ships and make cards limited anyway.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

You are missing the point. And most likely intentionally, because you don't like it. I am not talking about the power level. For all I care, they could have increased attani to 3 points.
It is the method which is wrong. That is completely unrelated to how strong the card now is.

As I said before. That change is fitting with the lore. I understand you don't like it, but its fluffy (like the Biggs change). That makes it okay in my opinion.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

Why not? It would be just as easy, the print medium of the game has been all but abandoned by FFG. The only thing that really is keeping the game in the physical realm is the aesthetics of the models.

There were a lot of radical suggestions that I was opposed because it went against the original business model FFG had set with their expansion packs, but now that this last FAQ has blown that all over to where not every upgrade cards in an expansion pack can be used with the model what else is there. This NerF.A.Q. is more radical than FFG announcing Random Booster card packs for X-wing, which as of now I would approve.

Yeah I'm upset but now there is no point into fighting against Tzeentch for change is eternal. So at this point anything and everything can be subject to change and perhaps should come more often.