23 hours ago, marcnelsonjr said:

If FFG is going to continue to hold the rules hostage by printing them on cards and scattering them throughout different expansions, then they have to send out free updated cards.

At the store where I play, we've almost all ditched the cards and gone either to printouts from list-builders or apps. I encourage others to do the same.

Why do they have to send out free cards? What requires them to?

21 hours ago, Mep said:

The changes made to the game was because the game was defective, hence my old misprinted cards are defective. I should be able to exchange my misprinted defective cards for new correctly printed cards. I don't want a 3rd party or even my own print out to replace a defective product. I would like my defective product to simply be replace.

Seriously, there are too many errata now and the only way to keep up is replacement. Using the old, out dated and now misprinted cards is too confusing. There needs to be a replacement program.

I'm not sure I would say the game was "defective" in that sense, so much as they didn't like the direction the game was going so they changed it. Change is part of any living game. I get that it's frustrating when a card doesn't match its official wording, but is it really reasonable to tell FFG that they aren't allowed to fix anything unless they're willing to give brand new cards to every single player free of charge? They already have a free fix; it's called the FAQ. If you don't like that fix, then fine, but why is it then FFG's responsibility to come out with an additional free fix?

And even if they did begin reprinting replacement cards, do you honestly think they would distribute them for free, simply eating the cost of printing, packaging, and shipping? Either they would have to charge for them (and probably at high price, since they would likely be rather limited runs), or else they would have to increase the cost of the miniatures considerably to factor for any sort of "free replacements for life" policy.

Honestly, if you don't want to print out the FAQ, you can always pull it up on your phone or tablet. If you don't want to use the data to do that, download the pdf while you're on Wi-Fi, and just open it when needed. As much as I would like to see correctly printed cards, it's not like it's the end of the game if we don't get them.

@JJ48 You are describing a very clumsy game. The FAQ was a solution when the game was smaller. At some point, it gets too big for most to keep track of. The whole "you played this wrong" even though you did what the card said really gives a NPE. It is very healthy for the game for FFG to fix defective game design (that is exactly what they are doing) and it is very healthy for the game for FFG to not add to NPE by having people play with defective cards and pages of errata changes. The whole point of having the cards was to have everything you need to know about the miniature right there on the table without having to look everything up in a book (unlike some other games). It's actually one of the great innovations FFG made to their games. Once those cards become defective and the book is required, that element of the game is completely lost. BTW, we paid for that element. I get that FFG put themselves in a pickle but that is their problem and one they created. Without replacement cards the game becomes a nightmare to TOs, even casual game leagues. So no, the FAQ is not a solution at this point. Fixing the defective physical product is.

13 minutes ago, Mep said:

@JJ48 You are describing a very clumsy game. The FAQ was a solution when the game was smaller. At some point, it gets too big for most to keep track of. The whole "you played this wrong" even though you did what the card said really gives a NPE. It is very healthy for the game for FFG to fix defective game design (that is exactly what they are doing) and it is very healthy for the game for FFG to not add to NPE by having people play with defective cards and pages of errata changes. The whole point of having the cards was to have everything you need to know about the miniature right there on the table without having to look everything up in a book (unlike some other games). It's actually one of the great innovations FFG made to their games. Once those cards become defective and the book is required, that element of the game is completely lost. BTW, we paid for that element. I get that FFG put themselves in a pickle but that is their problem and one they created. Without replacement cards the game becomes a nightmare to TOs, even casual game leagues. So no, the FAQ is not a solution at this point. Fixing the defective physical product is.

What "defective physical product"? We're not talking about cards that are damaged or misprinted; we're talking about cards that were made properly and have since been obsoleted. If you want to petition for FFG to sell reprints, great. But stop feeling entitled to them as if FFG owes you!

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

What "defective physical product"? We're not talking about cards that are damaged or misprinted; we're talking about cards that were made properly and have since been obsoleted. If you want to petition for FFG to sell reprints, great. But stop feeling entitled to them as if FFG owes you!

I realize someone is criticizing the game you love and you take it personally. It however is not personal to you. The jumpmaster was defective out of the box and everyone knew it. The cards where misprinted as they contained defective game design that later had to be changed. That is exactly what a misprint is, an obvious mistake that needs to be changed. While I doubt FFG will ever own up to this, they should. Too many errata will be the death of this game. Something you should take personally.

+1 to replacement/trade in system. I'm more than willing to pay the shipping cost (from my cards to them and then the new ones to me). If they did this they could cover its cost I believe.

Otherwise this game is going too get to hard to access for new players, and existing ones will feel overwhelmed to stay in the game.

13 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What "defective physical product"? We're not talking about cards that are damaged or misprinted; we're talking about cards that were made properly and have since been obsoleted. If you want to petition for FFG to sell reprints, great. But stop feeling entitled to them as if FFG owes you!

Once an FFG product becomes obsolete, and contains incorrect information, it does become the job and responsibility of FFG to provide an appropriate fix, or replacement for that product. This doesn't mean it needs to be free however, most products have a warranty or service period where any changes are provided free, after that, the cost is on the consumer.

The FAQ and Errata acts as a free fix, to an extent. However, going forward new purchases SHOULD come with updated cards. This means FFG does have a responsibility to release updated cards with updated errata and corrections. ESPECIALLY if they require cards in tournaments.

If this means an online PDF system with updated cards, if it means an app service, whatever route FFG takes, it IS there responsibility.

Or, they need to drop the card system.

For me, I think a lot of this problem stems from the fact that FFG is now a decently big company with large amounts of products and games and stuff like that, so reprints are quite slow. I know that ships like the Khirax, (which I will admit, wasn't a high priority ship until GFH just dropped), were mainly out of stock when I got the game for the 2015-2016 christmas season with the TFA Core. Obviously the Khirax isn't exactly the best example, but if it takes that long for even a previously (yay GFH!) lackluster ship to get back on the scene, other expansions suffer as well.

Idea here, maybe that's why they've waited to re-release these re-prints: they wanted to get all the cards up to date before releasing them. That's my hope anyways, because that would be really cool on FFG's part.

36 minutes ago, Mep said:

It is very healthy for the game for FFG to fix defective game design (that is exactly what they are doing) and it is very healthy for the game for FFG to not add to NPE by having people play with defective cards and pages of errata changes. The whole point of having the cards was to have everything you need to know about the miniature right there on the table without having to look everything up in a book (unlike some other games). It's actually one of the great innovations FFG made to their games. Once those cards become defective and the book is required, that element of the game is completely lost. BTW, we paid for that element. I get that FFG put themselves in a pickle but that is their problem and one they created. Without replacement cards the game becomes a nightmare to TOs, even casual game leagues. So no, the FAQ is not a solution at this point. Fixing the defective physical product is.

The card system was well intentioned for the reasons you state, but the issues we're seeing them finally get around to addressing now are inevitable in any game of this type. Their commitment to not doing functional errata like this to keep the spirit of why they made the system the way it is is commendable, but it's hamstrung their ability to fix issues in the game.

For all that though, actually look at the Errata section of the FAQ. Including all 4 Jumpmasters, there are currently 29 cards with altered text, and of those less than half are changes to their written functionality, the rest clarifying what specific step something occurs at or fixing obvious errors of intention where the card wouldn't actually do anything. Even including all of them, that's 29 out of 326 upgrades and 265 Pilots. Lets cut that pilot number in half to 132 to get a rough count of the number of pilots with abilities that would actually need errata, that means there's still just 29 changed cards out of ~460, 6%. There's not that much to keep track of in the grand scheme of things, the cards errata section is only as long as it is because of the included pictures of every card. That said the number is probably artificially low because they've tried to avoid the massive changes they've made these last two updates.

I'd also argue that the FAQ document is the best solution for everyone to handle these changes. It's utterly impractical to make a pack of errata'd cards for sale; do you add newly errata'd cards to this theoretical 'errata'd cards pack' every time there's a new one, or release individual errata packs with every FAQ update? How many copies of each errata'd upgrade/generic pilot do you include? Do you bother distributing these things out to stores, because how many people are actually going to buy them, when the vast majority of your customer base are purely casual kitchen table players that only buy a few ships anyway? How many of the kits do you actually produce as a consequence of all of those questions together? What happens if we revert or re-errata something in the future, now there are 3, or more, versions of this card running around?

You can argue, perhaps correctly, that they've brought this on themselves by going the card route that they did, but I can't see how you issue errata'd cards in a reasonable fashion, and I don't see how you fix the problems that inevitably arise in producing a game like X-wing without being able to change things, so we have to compromise.

The official cards are required for tournament play for the simple reason that FFG is in the business of selling the official cards.

You're certainly free to print out your own card updates and staple them to the official cards if you're unable to remember that the Jumpmaster's load out changed while playing your tournament game. Though since you're supposed to build out your squad before showing up to the tournament in the first place, I don't really see the point.

@Otacon FFG has no problems getting alt art cards out for promos. That actually requires more work than fixing the text. There really isn't any excuse for them to not have some mechanism in place, other than wait for a reprint and rebuy the product and hope that is a reprint, for these cards to be replaced. Also this is suppose to be a fun game, not an SAT. 29 cards is too much to keep track of, mostly because they do have well over 400 cards you need to be familiar with. Yeah I know there are some OCD hyper competitive people that have no issue keeping everything clear but that is a small fraction of their player base. The errata has gotten too big for them not to address them with card changes through some means.

The true hold up is they want people to rebuy the same product and they would rather not give out free or even cheap cards in their quarteries as that may detract from sales. Still it is a defective product at this point and needs to be replaced. I think they will find more money in not alienating their customers with all these changes and a pisspoor bandaid fix with some downloaded list.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

I realize someone is criticizing the game you love and you take it personally. It however is not personal to you. The jumpmaster was defective out of the box and everyone knew it. The cards where misprinted as they contained defective game design that later had to be changed. That is exactly what a misprint is, an obvious mistake that needs to be changed. While I doubt FFG will ever own up to this, they should. Too many errata will be the death of this game. Something you should take personally.

While I was on the way to copy paste the user name I find this:

Quote

We can hope that is true and this game doesn't get as bad as X-Wing had gotten. Even if it isn't so bad for this game, they still need to be doing this for all their games.

I would say it is safe to ignore you, because complain about everything is the least constructive way of critique.

1 hour ago, Gadgetron said:

Once an FFG product becomes obsolete, and contains incorrect information, it does become the job and responsibility of FFG to provide an appropriate fix, or replacement for that product. This doesn't mean it needs to be free however, most products have a warranty or service period where any changes are provided free, after that, the cost is on the consumer.

The FAQ and Errata acts as a free fix, to an extent. However, going forward new purchases SHOULD come with updated cards. This means FFG does have a responsibility to release updated cards with updated errata and corrections. ESPECIALLY if they require cards in tournaments.

If this means an online PDF system with updated cards, if it means an app service, whatever route FFG takes, it IS there responsibility.

Or, they need to drop the card system.

FFG really is not obligated to do anything you say they have a responsibility to do. It would be nice, but if it makes business sense to rerelease a previous expansion using the outdated version of a card, they are going to do so. Frankly, FFG doesn't even have a responsibility to hold X Wing tournaments at all, and there are plenty of countries where there are no official FFG sanctioned tournaments. Plus FFG knows tournament players generally know what their cards do anyways, without having to reread them again mid-tournament. The crying and ridiculous demands here really border on comical.

If you have trouble remembering what the updated version of your cards do, or what the updated version of an opponent's cards do, you're free to have a printed out version of the FAQ there at the tournament. If you don't like it, and think FFG should be taking on additional responsibilities with their game, then stop giving them money! If you keep giving them money, well then I guess they didn't have that responsibility you claim they have, since it isn't affecting their sales and continued sales is the real (and really only) responsibility of a business.

9 hours ago, Sithborg said:

And how much money do they lose if they piss off their licensor?

Got a point, but really I don't think Disney has that much interest or attention involved in X-wing miniatures. I mean on the table top market sure it is big and one of the top grossing table top games, but compared to Star Wars or Games it is barley a ripple in a ocean. Disney will be more interested in EA's Battlefront 2. FFG really had to work their connections to get Worlds at Disneyland, I'm sure Disney barely even noticed it until FFG pushed the issue. Yeah X-wing miniatures got a little bit of Disney's attention but not that much. Still being so low on the priorities doesn't mean you could get away with everything. It isn't always better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Still, for X-wing most of the cost of the products is in the models. And there are a lot of people who don't play (or don't play as much) but still collect the models. So as long as FFG makes models they will sell more products than the cards that come with them. So proxy cards but models must be official is what I say.

3 hours ago, Mep said:

I realize someone is criticizing the game you love and you take it personally. It however is not personal to you. The jumpmaster was defective out of the box and everyone knew it. The cards where misprinted as they contained defective game design that later had to be changed. That is exactly what a misprint is, an obvious mistake that needs to be changed. While I doubt FFG will ever own up to this, they should. Too many errata will be the death of this game. Something you should take personally.

It actually has nothing to do with anyone criticizing anything, beloved or otherwise. It's simply disagreement with your repeated usage of the word "defective".

2 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Once an FFG product becomes obsolete, and contains incorrect information, it does become the job and responsibility of FFG to provide an appropriate fix, or replacement for that product. This doesn't mean it needs to be free however, most products have a warranty or service period where any changes are provided free, after that, the cost is on the consumer.

The FAQ and Errata acts as a free fix, to an extent. However, going forward new purchases SHOULD come with updated cards. This means FFG does have a responsibility to release updated cards with updated errata and corrections. ESPECIALLY if they require cards in tournaments.

If this means an online PDF system with updated cards, if it means an app service, whatever route FFG takes, it IS there responsibility.

Or, they need to drop the card system.

I do think they should print the updated cards when they reprint the product. That way, those who don't like the FAQ solution will be able to purchase the updated cards, and they'll even come with a free miniature, to boot!

3 minutes ago, Otacon said:

The card system was well intentioned for the reasons you state, but the issues we're seeing them finally get around to addressing now are inevitable in any game of this type. Their commitment to not doing functional errata like this to keep the spirit of why they made the system the way it is is commendable, but it's hamstrung their ability to fix issues in the game.

For all that though, actually look at the Errata section of the FAQ. Including all 4 Jumpmasters, there are currently 29 cards with altered text, and of those less than half are changes to their written functionality, the rest clarifying what specific step something occurs at or fixing obvious errors of intention where the card wouldn't actually do anything. Even including all of them, that's 29 out of 326 upgrades and 265 Pilots. Lets cut that pilot number in half to 132 to get a rough count of the number of pilots with abilities that would actually need errata, that means there's still just 29 changed cards out of ~460, 6%. There's not that much to keep track of in the grand scheme of things, the cards errata section is only as long as it is because of the included pictures of every card. That said the number is probably artificially low because they've tried to avoid the massive changes they've made these last two updates.

I'd also argue that the FAQ document is the best solution for everyone to handle these changes. It's utterly impractical to make a pack of errata'd cards for sale; do you add newly errata'd cards to this theoretical 'errata'd cards pack' every time there's a new one, or release individual errata packs with every FAQ update? How many copies of each errata'd upgrade/generic pilot do you include? Do you bother distributing these things out to stores, because how many people are actually going to buy them, when the vast majority of your customer base are purely casual kitchen table players that only buy a few ships anyway? How many of the kits do you actually produce as a consequence of all of those questions together? What happens if we revert or re-errata something in the future, now there are 3, or more, versions of this card running around?

You can argue, perhaps correctly, that they've brought this on themselves by going the card route that they did, but I can't see how you issue errata'd cards in a reasonable fashion, and I don't see how you fix the problems that inevitably arise in producing a game like X-wing without being able to change things, so we have to compromise.

I think issues like these are signs that point to an inevitable need to shift to a 2.0 revision sooner rather than later. The older ships are getting band-aid fixes to address their initial design that lacked the consideration of dozens of new mechanics that now permeate the game, and even the very first ship has been considered less-than-great for years on end.

The foundation of the game was only recently solidified when they nailed down a comprehensive timing chart. I think it's time that every other facet of the game be thoroughly reviewed from dice probabilities, standard amounts of dice assigned to ships, ordinance and ability variety, and large/small ship differences. Then, every ship and pilot needs to be reevaluated taking into account the new maneuvers, actions, upgrades, upgrade slots, tokens, effects, etc using the reconstructed groundwork, and finally rebuilt with prices that make sense.

Frankly, I think they should do this for 6 months to a year in an open beta just like they're running with their RPGs. ****, I think there should even be a Beta tournament to put their ideas through the ringer before getting the full production treatment.

If we want reguarly updated rules, and published products, you probably want to roll them up and release them.

Possibly as a book.

Of rules.

Be careful what you wish for...

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

I would say it is safe to ignore you, because complain about everything is the least constructive way of critique.

Yep, that would be the exact same complaint about the exact same problem with an excellent way to fix the problem. That is what is called a great critique. What it is not is a complaint about everything, just FYI since you didn't figure it out.

Two ways to fix a broken game, banning and errata. Banning removes the problem altogether so the game can move forward. Errata fixes the problem by creating another problem, misprinted cards. That second problem also needs to be addressed correctly. A downloadable FQA is a bandaid at best, not a solution.

FFG using errata to solve all their problems across all their games is become a big problem on its own. They need to do better. otherwise people will vote with their dollars. Something they need to be very careful to avoid.

@JJ48 A "fix" is change that corrects a problem on something that was defective. So when I use the word "defective", it is the proper use of the word. I am sure one can use a thesaurus to find a more appealing word but it doesn't change the meaning. The game was defective so it needed a fix.

57 minutes ago, Reiver said:

If we want reguarly updated rules, and published products, you probably want to roll them up and release them.

Possibly as a book.

Of rules.

Be careful what you wish for...

That is kind of what we have been getting. Each waves bring up a new set of rule changes. The only thing different is that there isn't several factions to rotate for each wave. So as long as each wave updates all factions we will be avoiding some of the worst of the 40k rule changes, but X-wing is not immune to making the same mistakes.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Got a point, but really I don't think Disney has that much interest or attention involved in X-wing miniatures. I mean on the table top market sure it is big and one of the top grossing table top games, but compared to Star Wars or Games it is barley a ripple in a ocean. Disney will be more interested in EA's Battlefront 2. FFG really had to work their connections to get Worlds at Disneyland, I'm sure Disney barely even noticed it until FFG pushed the issue. Yeah X-wing miniatures got a little bit of Disney's attention but not that much. Still being so low on the priorities doesn't mean you could get away with everything. It isn't always better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Still, for X-wing most of the cost of the products is in the models. And there are a lot of people who don't play (or don't play as much) but still collect the models. So as long as FFG makes models they will sell more products than the cards that come with them. So proxy cards but models must be official is what I say.

So you entire argument is that LFL's lawyers are incompetent. That their entire division will ignore one of their bigger licensees? I mean, their view on proxies is likely spelled out in their contract. Again, if the Star Wars CCG Players Committee, a fan organization for continuing SWCCG, had rules to follow in order to have tacit permission to do what they were doing.

Advocating for FFG to violate their contract just seems like a silly thing to suggest.

10 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yep, that would be the exact same complaint about the exact same problem with an excellent way to fix the problem. That is what is called a great critique. What it is not is a complaint about everything, just FYI since you didn't figure it out.

Two ways to fix a broken game, banning and errata. Banning removes the problem altogether so the game can move forward. Errata fixes the problem by creating another problem, misprinted cards. That second problem also needs to be addressed correctly. A downloadable FQA is a bandaid at best, not a solution.

FFG using errata to solve all their problems across all their games is become a big problem on its own. They need to do better. otherwise people will vote with their dollars. Something they need to be very careful to avoid.

@JJ48 A "fix" is change that corrects a problem on something that was defective. So when I use the word "defective", it is the proper use of the word. I am sure one can use a thesaurus to find a more appealing word but it doesn't change the meaning. The game was defective so it needed a fix.

A restricted list is also a viable method, to go along with a ban list.

4 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

A restricted list is also a viable method, to go along with a ban list.

The game design already accounts for this in the form of unique and limited ships/upgrades. If they change a card to be unique then it is the same as the misprint problem.

Just now, Sithborg said:

So you entire argument is that LFL's lawyers are incompetent. That their entire division will ignore one of their bigger licensees? I mean, their view on proxies is likely spelled out in their contract. Again, if the Star Wars CCG Players Committee, a fan organization for continuing SWCCG, had rules to follow in order to have tacit permission to do what they were doing.

Advocating for FFG to violate their contract just seems like a silly thing to suggest.

No, I am arguing that X-wing miniatures isn't that big in the Star Wars franchise. I know it may come as a shock as X-wing is one of the biggest things in Table Top gaming but that is mostly because of Star Wars not because of the game.

You got Loot Crate Merchandise that makes more money than X-wing with Pop miniatures, you got EA's loot box Battlefront 2 game that is making millions enough to make FFG's Star Wars property look like pocket change. The LFL now Disney since they have been totally absorbed by the larger company are not incompetent but they got bigger fish to fry.

As far as the conspiracy that the cards make FFG all the money, that is not the case. I mean why would they replace lost or damaged Emperor Palpatine cards for free when it comes in a $100 box? The main expense is in the models not the stupid cards. Expansions are priced on the size of the model not how many pilot or upgrade cards or what the dial is. The cardboard is just a calculated add on that comes to a small fraction of the manufacturing cost . That said I want X-wing competitive focus to be on what is important, and that is the models. The cards are now redundant, they don't hold any value because at any given time a new FAQ could come up and it doesn't matter if you had the original or a later print it is out of date.

So no Disney will not ignore those scalping Star Wars as FFG still has to go through licensing. But X-wing miniatures is barely a blip on their radar, and it is one if anything got Disney's or LFL's attention it would have been something FFG brought to them. Disney would be more worried if GoG brought out an emulator for X-wing vs TIE Fighter than whatever FFG has done to X-wing miniatures.

9 minutes ago, Mep said:

The game design already accounts for this in the form of unique and limited ships/upgrades. If they change a card to be unique then it is the same as the misprint problem.

That is not how the restricted list works. You have a bunch of cards on the restricted list, but you can only have one of them in your list. Take Push the Limit and Authothrusters. You can either have Push the Limit in your squad, or Authothrusters. So Fel would have to choose between with of those two upgrades to take. It is directly eliminating problematic combos without complicated errata. Personally, I would have a fairly long one.

3 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

That is not how the restricted list works. You have a bunch of cards on the restricted list, but you can only have one of them in your list. Take Push the Limit and Authothrusters. You can either have Push the Limit in your squad, or Authothrusters. So Fel would have to choose between with of those two upgrades to take. It is directly eliminating problematic combos without complicated errata. Personally, I would have a fairly long one.

Okay, I see what you mean by that now. Yeah, there are different ways to define restricted. That actually isn't a bad idea to handle things and is certainly better than errata cards. I prefer straight up rule changes like that than actually not changing the text on cards but pretending the text is changed.

On 26/10/2017 at 5:13 AM, Marinealver said:

So with the requirement of having participants bringing incorrect information to the tournament my suggestion is to now let list printouts and alternative art proxy cards as legal tournament resources without requiring the original outdated and incorrect ones. Players still need the model, the base, the cardboard tiles, and you could even go back and say the dials have to match the faction now that you have dial upgrade kits and can easily make a Scum Y-wing a Rebel one or visa verse.

If not then for the sake of the force get your new digital development team to make an updated official list builder and have everyone buy that (or even subscribe if you need it). That way every FAQ will automatically updates everyone list. All I got to say is you made one heck of a mess, clean it up.

On 26/10/2017 at 7:00 AM, Valca said:

A lot of people are forgetting that FFG makes money by getting you to buy ships you don't want in order to get cards you do. It's basically their entire business model in both this game and in Armada. How many StarVipers would FFG had sold if you could legally proxy Autothrusters?

I can definitely get behind this. There's a very easy way to make sure FFG gets their money from cards, too. Do you remember all those "proof of purchase" tokens with unique IDs on the back? Simply allow people to input them into the squadron builder (after logging in) to gain access to the correct amount of those cards. you still need multiples of certain things (like Lightweight frame for a bomber swarm), but now the cards aren't immediately worthless when nerf happen.