On 2017-10-25 at 1:18 PM, Franch said:

Someone finally said it. The first time you genius+bomblet, discard the EM token, then don't genius+bomblet again. Unless it a do-or-die situation.

IMO Genius ability was used much more than once or twice per game. And you will have to pay the pts of EM by removing something else in your build or by lowering you initiavie bid. Not sure it's enough to balance Nym but it's a good start. It's also amazing that for once they reacted rapidly to the problem. Might be the reason why the FAQ was delayed. They added nerfs the were not in the original "leaked" FAQ.

57 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

But TLT is an issue as it is so much better than every other turret in the game. In a game about maneuvering, TLT removes any reason to care about maneuvering.

You mean: every other secondary weapon turret in the game is a problem, because they're not worth taking even if TLT isn't good.

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Once per 2 turns would be a pain in the *** to try to keep track of. And only working one round per game is still quite useful. Biggs was always best when you used him to force the opponent to split fire anyway, not just when you made them kill him first then move on to the rest of your list.

My Take on Biggs is this: When biggs chooses to use his ability he always takes a minimum of 1 unstoppable damage no matter how much damage is cancelled from the attack. Now he is fixed too and not destroyed like he is now by the FAQ

1 minute ago, Punning Pundit said:

You mean: every other secondary weapon turret in the game is a problem, because they're not worth taking even if TLT isn't good.

Ion was used before TLT. Especially after the BTL title was released

19 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

It's easy to nerf without a cost adjustment. Lots of options. My personal favorite comes down to "both attacks must hit; if so, deal 2 damage, if not, deal 0 damage."

(Note that this is a tiny back-door nerf to Miranda's regen, also ... )

I think that doesn't address the problem with TLT.

Specifically: TLT is a bit too good against things with 0-1 agility. It's good- but not amazing- against ships with 3+ agility, especially when those ships are token stackers.

TLT vs Defenders? Not a problem. TLT vs Squints? Look. That's the only way a Y-Wing is even getting in the ring.

But TLTs are getting 2 darned near auto damage against B-Wings. That's keeping B-Wings off the table. This solution is a Nerf in the wrong direction, I think.

18 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Ion was used before TLT. Especially after the BTL title was released

Just barely, though. That's because ion turrets are a bit over costed for what they do.

15 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

You mean: every other secondary weapon turret in the game is a problem, because they're not worth taking even if TLT isn't good.

The problem isn't that the other turrets aren't good, the problem is that TLT is just so much better that you're almost always better off using it. When one upgrade is so much superior to the others that it drives them out of competition then that is the problem that needs addressing. I say it should be restricted to either range 2 only or range 3 only, make the ships that take it have to actually try and position themselves if they want a shot.

55 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

If you honestly think TLTs don't care about manuvers, then you obviously haven't used them against people who actually know about the range one bubble and how to exploit it.

They don't care about maneuvers, all they try and do is stay out of range 1. They don't care about facing, and the range 2-3 band is huge. TLT ships are braindead to fly and way too effective for their cost and simplicity. Synced turrets are an interesting design and require you to fly well to get the most out of them, but why take a fun and interesting turret with restrictions when you can just take the straight up more powerful TLT? TLT isn't broken, but it is so far above the power curve that it essentially has no competitors.

5 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

But TLTs are getting 2 darned near auto damage against B-Wings. That's keeping B-Wings off the table. This solution is a Nerf in the wrong direction, I think.

I think you may want to look at it again.

"Must hit twice for 2, else 0" cannot be better than the current function of TLTs. It is almost strictly worse.

Also, yeah, it works out the same against AGI 0 targets, but that has not kept them off the table. VCX-100s and VT-49s have done fine.

Finally, anybody who says their TLTs never miss against AGI 1 targets is a liar. And in this case, a single miss is a loss of 2 damage to that target, not a loss of 1.

What if the Biggs nerf has removed the range restriction. So, once per game, but if they can attack Biggs -- period -- they have to. That would have been pretty interesting, I think.

(I'm not dumping on the actual nerf, exactly, especially if it's followed up by an X-wing buff.)

Personally I like the suggestion that the first TLT shot has to hit in order to make the second shot. It nerfs it hard vs AG 3 ships with defensive tokens, but keeps it brutal vs low AG ships, which then makes it a choice depending on the meta you expect to face. A target lock criteria would also be cool, but would probably be a step too far in combination.

It would also make it a Miranda nerf as she'd be pushed hard to think about modding the first roll. Does she absolutely need the shield? Likely no damage... But if she shoots normally and misses, she can't regen on the second shot.

29 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

They don't care about maneuvers, all they try and do is stay out of range 1. They don't care about facing, and the range 2-3 band is huge. TLT ships are braindead to fly and way too effective for their cost and simplicity. Synced turrets are an interesting design and require you to fly well to get the most out of them, but why take a fun and interesting turret with restrictions when you can just take the straight up more powerful TLT? TLT isn't broken, but it is so far above the power curve that it essentially has no competitors.

That still means they care about maneuvers. Heck, PWT care less about maneuvers than TLT. Take it from someone who uses TLTs in some of my lists, your assertion that they don't care is provably false.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

That still means they care about maneuvers. Heck, PWT care less about maneuvers than TLT. Take it from someone who uses TLTs in some of my lists, your assertion that they don't care is provably false.

Compared to ships that actually have to point at the thing they want to shoot? Also, TLT average more damage than a three die pwt at range two and three.

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

My Take on Biggs is this: When biggs chooses to use his ability he always takes a minimum of 1 unstoppable damage no matter how much damage is cancelled from the attack. Now he is fixed too and not destroyed like he is now by the FAQ

I think the Biggs nerf could have gone like:

Other friendly ships at range one cannot be targeted by an attack if the attacker is outside your firing arc and could target you instead.

But this discussion about how the nerfs Could have gone is the same as all the other times we have had nerfs - its mostly just the surprise of what is different. At least they seem to have done better with the nerfs this time around, although, I really hope they get that salvaged astromech thing sorted on the jumpmaster. It'd be so frustrating to buy a ship that has cards that it, and virtually all other ships, cannot use.

On 10/25/2017 at 9:47 AM, drail14me said:

Where do you see Nov 6? Is says July 24 on the cover.

Me thinks you are looking at the wrong FAQ.

5 minutes ago, Woobyluv said:

Me thinks you are looking at the wrong FAQ.

When it was originally posted, it said 07.24.2017. I have a downloaded copy I'm looking at right now.

They changed it fairly quickly.

14 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Compared to ships that actually have to point at the thing they want to shoot? Also, TLT average more damage than a three die pwt at range two and three.

Yes, even compared to ships that have to have arc. Just because something cares less doesn't mean they don't care at all, as you claim. And, again, PWT cares even less because the only have to worry about beyond range 3 about not getting to shoot.

Your last sentence isn't even a part of this discussion. We are talking about maneuvers, not damage out put.

12 minutes ago, Woobyluv said:

Me thinks you are looking at the wrong FAQ.

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

When it was originally posted, it said 07.24.2017. I have a downloaded copy I'm looking at right now.

They changed it fairly quickly.

My copy is the same, and if you look at the article it appears that it wasn't adapted entirely, because at the bottom it still states:

"Download the new X-Wing FAQ now to read the entire update before it goes into effect on November 6th. If you're planning on playing at the U.S. National Championship, make sure to read the errata so you're prepared!"

and US Nationals were on September 3rd.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I think you may want to look at it again.

"Must hit twice for 2, else 0" cannot be better than the current function of TLTs. It is almost strictly worse.

Also, yeah, it works out the same against AGI 0 targets, but that has not kept them off the table. VCX-100s and VT-49s have done fine.

Finally, anybody who says their TLTs never miss against AGI 1 targets is a liar. And in this case, a single miss is a loss of 2 damage to that target, not a loss of 1.

I think you misunderstand me. Your nerf would not be as good against token stacking 3+ agility ships, and would be roughly the same against 0-1 agility ships. In my mind, that's a problem.

I want a TLT nerf that makes them worse against 0-1 agility ships, and roughly the same against token stacking 3+ agility ships. I see TLTs as _too good_ against ships with 0-1 agility- because they can reliably do a lot of damage. As proof of this: most of the 0-1 agility ships we see right now are TLT carriers. I see TLTs as just about right against higher agility ships- at the very least a TLT is stripping off tokens.

I want to see more 0-1 agility ships on the table, because I want to see more things that 2 die attacks are good against on the table. TLT is one of the things scaring those ships away.

6 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I think you misunderstand me. Your nerf would not be as good against token stacking 3+ agility ships, and would be roughly the same against 0-1 agility ships. In my mind, that's a problem.

I want a TLT nerf that makes them worse against 0-1 agility ships, and roughly the same against token stacking 3+ agility ships. I see TLTs as _too good_ against ships with 0-1 agility- because they can reliably do a lot of damage. As proof of this: most of the 0-1 agility ships we see right now are TLT carriers. I see TLTs as just about right against higher agility ships- at the very least a TLT is stripping off tokens.

I want to see more 0-1 agility ships on the table, because I want to see more things that 2 die attacks are good against on the table. TLT is one of the things scaring those ships away.

Yeah, I see your point; but thematically, isn’t it easier to hit a large, less-agile target? Small fighters should be almost impossible to hit with a turret in comparison.

22 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I think you misunderstand me. Your nerf would not be as good against token stacking 3+ agility ships, and would be roughly the same against 0-1 agility ships. In my mind, that's a problem.

I do understand you. It is not the same against a 1 AGI ship. Anybody who says TLTs never miss 1 AGI ships is not being truthful. It happens fairly often, actually. And when it does happen, with my proposed nerf, the 1 AGI ship saves 2 damage, not 1 damage.

It's not the same, not even "roughly."

Quote

I want to see more 0-1 agility ships on the table, because I want to see more things that 2 die attacks are good against on the table. TLT is one of the things scaring those ships away.

I assume you mean other than Nym, Miranda, Lowhrick, VCX-100, Decimator?

4 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I do understand you. It is not the same against a 1 AGI ship. Anybody who says TLTs never miss 1 AGI ships is not being truthful. It happens fairly often, actually. And when it does happen, with my proposed nerf, the 1 AGI ship saves 2 damage, not 1 damage.

It's not the same, not even "roughly."

Never misses when I have accuracy corrector with it

Just now, VanderLegion said:

Never misses when I have accuracy corrector with it

It might when obstructed!

It's helpful to remember what TLT showed up for: A counter to Fat Han.

Its whole point was to pound through tokens and proceed to shred a 1-agi ship, because people were flying 1-agi ships that could auto-ignore precisely 3 hits a turn. So the idea of the TLT was to be able to shoot through that kind of defense, and still scratch the paint on the other side. Worse yet, you couldn't even simply make it a gunner-type effect, because one of those negated damage points was via shield regen, so simply hitting your target for 1 damage a turn didn't achieve the solution, either.

The problem is that it worked - and the same upgrade still cheerfully obliterates the 1agi ships that weren't packing massive damage mitigation proceeded to get slaughtered in the process.

All in all, to be 'properly balanced' against the other turrets, TLT should really have been 7, possibly even 8 points. But the problem alongside this is that every other turret was a point or two too expensive to begin with... or, at least, their hulls were. If Y-wings were 16 points, you could start seriously considering the other turrets fairly priced, and TLTs could have been designed accordingly too.

As it stands, though? They've balanced turret-ships with the expectation that they'll be taking powerful turrets, and then when the turrets turned out to still be underpowered, released a super-turret to fix that. In doing so, you obliterate all the other turrets in the process.

This is actually the reason I tend to be so hostile to people clamoring, eg, for Linked Batteries to have been a 1 or 0 pt upgrade 'so it could help fix the ships that are weak in the meta right now'. If you do that, all the other cool cannons become obsolete; it is vastly better to fix the hulls and leave the slots open instead.

3 hours ago, Thormind said:

IMO Genius ability was used much more than once or twice per game. And you will have to pay the pts of EM by removing something else in your build or by lowering you initiavie bid. Not sure it's enough to balance Nym but it's a good start. It's also amazing that for once they reacted rapidly to the problem. Might be the reason why the FAQ was delayed. They added nerfs the were not in the original "leaked" FAQ.

My wife was utterly shocked when she heard that her init bid on her list when von 4 points to just 2 points … only the lack of torp jumpmasters managed to bring back her smile … most list which can kill her Rebel Captain Nym in one turn has been eliminated with this FAQ ;-)

I still looking forward to the new meta. Palp Aces might be valid again.