7 hours ago, Destraa said:

X-Wing players are also some of FFG’s saltiest.

Agreed, X-Wing players are very salty. Then again, we have a lot of salty people around here.

Losing players is never a good thing unless they are replaced. While a agree that changes were needed for the health of the game, FFG needs to step up and replace the now misprinted defective cards. Not to do so will cause too much confusion. Right now there are a few errata cards. Later on, there will be too many to keep track of without replacements.

On 10/25/2017 at 11:12 AM, Stone37 said:

This very much could have been done affordably as a LCG and I think I'm going to start playing that game instead....

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/208316

You might want to have looked into the product before making that statement.

On 10/25/2017 at 9:51 PM, Mep said:

I don't see how this being a CCG over an LCG would have more or less people playing it. I think the game itself determines interest. Destiny isn't too far off from an LCG with it's starter sets, two player set and now draft set. That is basically what a LCG would look like. The CCG aspect does all people to collect the cards, which is something I suppose, but doesn't necessarily translate to people playing it.

BTW, nothing wrong with letting FFG know people prefer LCGs, just that this game never will be one.

What translates into people playing it is stores supporting it and promoting it. That's the failing of the LCG model, stores can't sell anything more them one pack per player, so it doesn't get the support from them.

CCGs encourage impulse buys, packs as prizing, now limited formats upcoming. All of those things means more sales for the store. Stores support the things that support them. Stores supporting the game means increased visibility, which means you easily insnare more players.

LCGs offer so little incentive sales wise that getting stores to support those groups is significantly more difficult. It's almost like asking them to do you a favor to be honest.

Will people leave because FFG errata things. Sure, though probably not as many as proclaim they will.

Will players leave if gameplay becomes dull because of impasses generated by misses in design? Also yes.

The actual question is which group is bigger. FFG says the later. WoTC says the later. I think ever game producers says the later.

People that take the stance that they don't want changes to be made because design should be better and make changes unnecessary, they'll quit either way.

7 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

You might want to have looked into the product before making that statement.

I have! It's a great product. There is no reason that FFG could not have followed this model. Now ASHES is releasing full deck sets (with everything a single player needs to play the game). I think the 2 player Destiny game is a good model for how this COULD have been an LCG. Release a base set (with 4 possible decks) and then every month release upgrades, and every few months 1 and 2 player full decks.

1 hour ago, Stone37 said:

I have! It's a great product. There is no reason that FFG could not have followed this model. Now ASHES is releasing full deck sets (with everything a single player needs to play the game). I think the 2 player Destiny game is a good model for how this COULD have been an LCG. Release a base set (with 4 possible decks) and then every month release upgrades, and every few months 1 and 2 player full decks.

You're asking FFG to make a less successful product. Not just a less profitable one for them, but just a worse less played product.

How is that an actual option for them?

There is something to be said about stores wanting to support a CCG over an LCG because CCGs care cash cows. There is something to be said about players not wanting to be treated as cash cows and will not bother with a CCG. Good example would be X-Wing. It is the miniature version of a LCG. Stores seem very happy to support it. Now Ashes doesn't treat people like they are cash cows and I've never seen anyone actually play it despite it looks to be a cool game. There are many factors that go into if a game catches on or not. The business model has an influence but I do see any strong correlation between a game's success and how it is sold.

11 minutes ago, Mep said:

Good example would be X-Wing. It is the miniature version of a LCG.

This is true, but misses the details. The standard LCG is a single pack at $15 per month which provides an instant full playset. X-wing waves aren't monthly, but they require multiple purchases at $15-$40 each, and that's before even addressing the epic ships which push people to buy $90 min-cards.

So while X-wing may be an LCG in the sense of knowing what you get, the level of consumer friendliness is far lower, which translates into more high-dollar sales for shops.

@Buhallin I would say a store would get similar numbers although X-Wing has the edge. The LCG will have 12 packs and at least one big box for a little over $200 a year. That buys 3 of those $40 ships and 6 of the $15 ships. However since X Wing is more expensive people are more likely to buy them on the internet to save money. Also store make money on drinks and snacks and entrance fees. The only big difference I see is more people play X-Wing so it is a higher volume business, and that there is the key, number of players/customers. Of course your average MtG or 40k player sends stupid amounts of money on their games, so that is even a better business.

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

This is true, but misses the details. The standard LCG is a single pack at $15 per month which provides an instant full playset. X-wing waves aren't monthly, but they require multiple purchases at $15-$40 each, and that's before even addressing the epic ships which push people to buy $90 min-cards.

So while X-wing may be an LCG in the sense of knowing what you get, the level of consumer friendliness is far lower, which translates into more high-dollar sales for shops.

^This hits it on the head.

Your typical LCG schedule for a year will result in a little over $200 spent. A single 4 ship wave of X-wing will come close to equallying that. And theres multiple of those a year, plus supplemental products in between.

X-wing can not be called a miniature gane version of an LCG because there is incentive to buy multiple of each expansion. 40k isn't a blind buy, is it also a miniature game version of an LCG. This cross platform comparison isn't working for your position.

Stores like CCGs because they sell well, they make the store money. FFGs LCGs peak at launch and then bleed players until they have 10 player Regionals and 40 person World Championships. Maybe L5R will buck that trend, but even none FFG LCGs don't do any better. Players, as a whole, don't mind being "cash cows" because they get more content and are more easily able to find venues to play at.

Game stores have limited space, games compete for that space. If all you can promise is $15 a month, for the players that even buy there, plus a few sodas you aren't going to encourage a store to give your game space on their schedule over other games that will just sell better. You'll get bumped for another Yugioh night.

@ScottieATF Actually you can say X-Wing is like an LCG because there have been blind collectable miniature in the past that work like CCGs. The new Netrunner core needs 3 copies to have a complete play set coming in at $120. Yeah there is more money in the plastic but not that much more since the higher the price the better the online deals are. Game stores simply do better on the lower price SKUs as people will buy it from them rather than going to MM for $10 off that $40 ship. Where people go to buy their product matters. Will I ever buy a box of Destiny from my game store for $107 plus tax when I can buy one on Amazon for $80? Stores can sell boosters, typically as prize support, which is why CCGs are attractive. There are no X-Wing boosters, or LCG boosters because the business model for them is basically the same. That is something FFG can work on. Still gaming leagues bring people into stores and generate sales.

On 2017-10-24 at 6:16 PM, Bradders77 said:

It's a complete piss take tbh. My mate has also just bought x2 2player boxes. It's still in the post. He hasn't even received it yet and now its illegal. He's on a really tight budget having a family ect. He enjoys the casual side of things but would like to play the odd tournament, as would I. The only feasible way now is drafting. I think it's just ruining the game and taking the fun out of it. If it was an LCG, at least they could out source the upgraded cards in due course. I really like the game, but they need to re-think this. So many more people would subscribe to it if it was an LCG, its Starwars!! So. Many would subscribe. Sorry just really annoyed at spending then it being written off after owning it 2 weeks!!

If it was LCG, Phasma would still be modified, why LCG would help with errata's? LCG is just a different way to sell cards and dice... more importantly a more "boring" for to me. No one in game store would play a Destiny LCG, i'd immediately sell my cards if it became an LCG. Most people at game store playing destiny are 50% player 50% collector. Remove the collector part, and we are all out. Maybe we would be replaced by different customers, but I don't care, i would not play at all.

On 2017-10-24 at 7:20 PM, Buhallin said:

This is really overly dramatic.

You can still play everything in the box, even with two. The only difference is you play eKylo/Phasma, or ePhasma/Kylo. The ONLY thing you can't do any more is play eKylo/ePhasma. Nothing in the box is useless or doesn't work any more.

This is, in fact, how the initial starters released - eRey/Finn, and eKylo/Stormtrooper. 3 dice builds are very common. Leaving 2-3 character points unspent is very common. Nothing in this change ruins the set or cancels it out at all.

Exactly, all other card in starter box are untouched!

1 hour ago, Mep said:

@ScottieATF Actually you can say X-Wing is like an LCG because there have been blind collectable miniature in the past that work like CCGs.

No, you really can't. "You know what you're getting in the box when another game sold something similar blind" is not the only requirement for something to be an LCG. If you can, you know what else is like LCGs? Board games! Munchkin! Love letter! Shall I go on?

The defining feature of an LCG is a finite, limited purchase to acquire a full playset. Yes, certain products make it 3 instead of 1 for various reasons that people will debate endlessly. But X-wing in no way, shape or form matches the sales model beyond knowing what you get in the box - just like every other non-collectible, non-LCG game out there.

I'm confused as to why you think this comparison helps your cause.

We are comparing product sales models as it relates to a stores ability to generate sales from players. Blind buy or not is not a determining factor in that relation, so it shouldn't be your means of comparison. Is 40k also an LCG equivalent because it is also a non-blind buy product?

LCGs allow only one sale per expansion per player. The amount of money a player will spend on an LCG is minimal and finite, that's always been one of the major point of that model. X-wing by contrast encourages multiple purchase of each expansion, even superfluous purchases for needed upgrade cards. The amount of money a player will spend on X-wing is both larger on average, by a significant margin, and elastic on the high end. In that area the CCG model has higher correlation to X-wing then the LCG model does. And that's the area of discussion.

Why would you purchase a booster box from a physical venue vs Amazon? 1. You want a venue to play in so you realize you need to offer a reason for the venue to host your group (aka exactly what I'm talking about) and 2. Shops offer discounts too ya know.

I understand both your points. Still the comparison holds up well. The main similarities is expandable game with regular releases and known product when buying. CCGs are an expandable game with regular releases with unknown product when buying. People can always buy multiple packs in LCGs to put together more than one deck without pulling decks apart. Most don't but some do. Some of those x-wing ships people just pass on completely, so there isn't a must buy. Same can be said for an LCG though. You guys are getting hung up on small details.

2 hours ago, Mep said:

The main similarities is expandable game with regular releases and known product when buying.

So every miniatures game except WizKids (and even some of theirs) is an LCG then?

2 hours ago, Mep said:

You guys are getting hung up on small details.

The X-wing model is a great example of a hybrid between a LCG and CCG model. There are no random boosters in X-wing and it makes for a very satisfying purchase for the consumer. ASHES presents a very X-wing like model. The core gives you EVERYTHING you need for up to 4 player games (comes with 6 decks!). Much like X-wing, add-ons are sold and can enhance the play experience. Now, full decks (with all the tokens) are being sold as well.

I prefer the big custom dice in Destiny to the generic (but still very beautiful, as these are WAY BETTER than Dicemaster dice) ones found in ASHES. The starter sets and the 2 Player sets I think prove that this game COULD be sold in a more X-wing like way. At the very least, I'd like to see FFG start selling COMPLETE decks. When I played MTG, I always enjoyed buying the new decks when they came out. The CCG model is what FFG choose here, and we know why. I think the one thing they can and should change is the Starter sets.

LCGs come in many different flavors and each has differences in their details. The BIG difference with a CCG is the limited print run and collectability. The collectable market is very different than the print as needed expandable game market.