24 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

This calls the "Joke's on them, I'm only pretending to be ******" meme to mind.

If you, air quotes, pretend to do a thing by doing the thing, you've still done the thing. And when you're doing it to illustrate that the thing is bad, well, you've just acted badly, and also normalized that thing.

Can't say that I've ever heard of that meme.

Again, sorry if you feel that way.

3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Then you’ll have no trouble pointing out where on-screen his statement about Jango is clearly debunked.

At this point in time, Open Seasons is - at most - the story Jango told about his origins, one that was contradicted by Almec.

Upon Obi-Wan discovering Death Watch still existed, Satine could have easily said that, yes, Jango was Mandalorian after all.

With an interview with Filoni readily available which establishes the intent of the line - to establish on screen Lucas’ determination that Jango isn’t Mandalorian, we can tie most everything we’ve been tossing around here together thusly -

- Even prior to the “EU purge,” ancillary works such as books and comics were considered to be canon until and unless contradicted on screen.

- In what is now Legends continuity, Jango was established as being Mandalorian.

- Prior to the “EU purge,” there was (and still remains) only one piece of on-screen information regarding Jango’s status as a Mandalorian, and that is a statement that he isn’t one. Until and unless contradicted on screen, this supersedes Open Seasons.

- If we accept the expositional statement of one shady character regarding his species and culture as authoritative, and it’s similar to other such expositional statements, we have no reason not to accept yet another expositional statement from a character as authoritative unless it is disproven.

- If we understand the intent of the last part of that shady character’s expositional statement and accept it, then definitively knowing the intent of the line given to the second character (thanks to an interview with the executive producer), then there is no reason not to accept that second character’s information.

Now, is there wiggle room in there to keep Jango’s now twice-purged backstory in one’s headcanon? Sure. There’s even a good possibility that this was done intentionally, as fundamental changes to what was “known” about Mandalorian culture were being made in that story.

But, as it currently stands, Jango isn’t Mandalorian in any way, shape, or form, based upon the only information on the matter presented on screen (or, for that matter, in the currently established canon).

I disagree. First off, Jango being from Concord Dawn has not been contradicted in any way, not even by Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni. All that has been established is that Jango is not from Mandalore itself. Secondly, Almec lied about the warrior clans having died out. This alone makes his later claim suspect.

As for Watto, none of what ha has claimed was ever contradicted or proven false. He may have been greedy, but he was honest about his greed. He never once lied to Qui Gon. When he made a deal, he honored it,even when he really didn't want to. Almec has repeatedly been proven to be dishonest.

52 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Can't say that I've ever heard of that meme.

Look it up. It'll be illustrative.

And it's not that I "feel that way". That's being dismissive.

I'm telling you how it is.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. First off, Jango being from Concord Dawn has not been contradicted in any way, not even by Pablo Hidalgo or Dave Filoni. All that has been established is that Jango is not from Mandalore itself. Secondly, Almec lied about the warrior clans having died out. This alone makes his later claim suspect.

As has been noted several times, what is now termed "Legends" - which includes Open Seasons - was very pointedly and specifically declared non-canon, with the LFL story group conceding that Legends elements might be reintegrated into the new canon at their discretion.

Concord Dawn has been established in the new canon as a Mandalorian world.

Jango being from Concord Dawn would make him a Mandalorian.

Almec refuted Jango being a Mandalorian.

I've agreed several times now that there's enough wiggle room in there that Jango's Concord Dawn origins might still be in place, but it has yet to be established in (to borrow a comics term) "post-Crisis" continuity.

All that said, on-screen information still trumps ancillary media per LFL's rules. "Post-Crisis," we have only one bit of information provided about Jango's status as a Mandalorian: Almec's statement that he isn't. Until and unless additional "post-Crisis" information comes along to debunk Almec's statement (and, given that Filoni has outright stated the intent of the line: to establish that Jango isn't Mandalorian), that statement stands.

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Watto, none of what ha has claimed was ever contradicted or proven false. He may have been greedy, but he was honest about his greed. He never once lied to Qui Gon. When he made a deal, he honored it,even when he really didn't want to. Almec has repeatedly been proven to be dishonest.

He had to be threatened with Hutt retribution to honor a deal that was made in bad faith (by both Watto and Qui-Gon...Watto using what appeared to be a loaded chance cube based upon his reaction to how it landed, and Qui-Gon using the Force to make that chance cube give the result he wanted). He also demonstrated (in AotC) a willingness to use violence to collect on debts. He's a shady guy.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Look it up. It'll be illustrative.

And it's not that I "feel that way". That's being dismissive.

I'm telling you how it is.

So you are telling me about my intent?

Sounds like Jedi mind tricks to me.

If I claim inclusion in a group and claim they're immune, it won't work. Because all of that group will be immune.

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

As has been noted several times, what is now termed "Legends" - which includes Open Seasons - was very pointedly and specifically declared non-canon, with the LFL story group conceding that Legends elements might be reintegrated into the new canon at their discretion.

Concord Dawn has been established in the new canon as a Mandalorian world.

Jango being from Concord Dawn would make him a Mandalorian.

Almec refuted Jango being a Mandalorian.

I've agreed several times now that there's enough wiggle room in there that Jango's Concord Dawn origins might still be in place, but it has yet to be established in (to borrow a comics term) "post-Crisis" continuity.

All that said, on-screen information still trumps ancillary media per LFL's rules. "Post-Crisis," we have only one bit of information provided about Jango's status as a Mandalorian: Almec's statement that he isn't. Until and unless additional "post-Crisis" information comes along to debunk Almec's statement (and, given that Filoni has outright stated the intent of the line: to establish that Jango isn't Mandalorian), that statement stands.

He had to be threatened with Hutt retribution to honor a deal that was made in bad faith (by both Watto and Qui-Gon...Watto using what appeared to be a loaded chance cube based upon his reaction to how it landed, and Qui-Gon using the Force to make that chance cube give the result he wanted). He also demonstrated (in AotC) a willingness to use violence to collect on debts. He's a shady guy.

Hidalgo has also stated that Jango being from Concord Dawn have not been officially overturned. He is still from there as far as anyone in or out of of universe.

As for Watto, he felt that the bet was unfair. So he complained, he still upheld his end of the deal. Also, he never once tried stiffing Qui Gon on their original deal either. Watto wants to make money, cheating customers isn't likely to make you money in the long run. Watto has a reputation to uphold. He certainly doesn't want to be known as a cheater or swindler. That would be bad for business.

Almec, however, has been shown to be completely corrupt and a liar. He has been proven to be untrustworthy. Added to the fact that he has no reason to know anything about Jango Fett aside from his reputation and profession, he cannot be considered a reliable witness.

Therefore, the only thing we can say for certain about Jango Fett is that he is not from Mandalore. And in that sense, no, he isn't Mandalorian, at least not by native blood. However, as of yet, he is still considered to be from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony world. That makes him Mandalorian by adoption and culture.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Hidalgo has also stated that Jango being from Concord Dawn have not been officially overturned. He is still from there as far as anyone in or out of of universe.

Which means, at best, it is neither confirmed nor denied. No “post-Crisis” mention has been made of it. The only “post-Crisis” statement about Jango’s status is Almec’s statement. As such, it stands.

Meanwhile, however, Filoni has stated the dialogue intended to establish Jango as not being Mandalorian.

In contrast, here’s all I could find from Pablo on the matter:

Some key words I see there are “I suppose” and “claimed.”

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Watto, he felt that the bet was unfair. So he complained, he still upheld his end of the deal. Also, he never once tried stiffing Qui Gon on their original deal either. Watto wants to make money, cheating customers isn't likely to make you money in the long run. Watto has a reputation to uphold. He certainly doesn't want to be known as a cheater or swindler. That would be bad for business.

Watto was fully prepared to go back on the deal. Qui-Gon has to threaten going to the Hutts to convince Watto to honor the deal. Again, both Watto and Qui-Gon entered the deal in bad faith, each attempting to cheat the other to varying degrees. He’s a shady guy.

And a reputation for cheating and swindling being bad for business? Sounds like you’ve had the pleasure of never having dealt with Just Brakes.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Almec, however, has been shown to be completely corrupt and a liar. He has been proven to be untrustworthy. Added to the fact that he has no reason to know anything about Jango Fett aside from his reputation and profession, he cannot be considered a reliable witness.

And yet no other “post-Crisis” source has contradicted his statement (a statement with an intent confirmed in an interview with Filoni).

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Therefore, the only thing we can say for certain about Jango Fett is that he is not from Mandalore. And in that sense, no, he isn't Mandalorian, at least not by native blood. However, as of yet, he is still considered to be from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony world. That makes him Mandalorian by adoption and culture.

Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian world. If we want to draw a real world parallel, let’s say Concord Dawn is Puerto Rico. Concord Dawn’s citizens are, by virtue of that, Mandalorian.

But, if Jango’s Concord Dawn origins are so indisputable, then you’ll have no problem pointing out where they’ve been established “post-Crisis,” keeping in mind that Open Seasons was published in 2003, under the umbrella of “it counts until and unless contradicted on screen.” Meanwhile, “The Mandalore Plot” episode of Clone Wars (with the statement in question) aired in 2010. With on-screen information superseding ancillary media (and with that ancillary media excised from the canon about 4 years later), plus that on-screen statement not contradicted by any other on screen (or “post-Crisis” ancillary media) information, it’s what stands.

Or, who knows...maybe the destruction of Concord Dawn was caused by the escalating disagreement over whether or not the template for the Grand Army of the Republic - the forerunners of Imperial stormtroopers - was Mandalorian.

56 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So you are telling me about my intent?

No, I'm telling you what you're actually doing, versus what you're claiming you're doing. Intent is another matter.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

You didn't have anything smaller?

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

You didn't have anything smaller?

I’ll cop to that. Tough to gauge the scale on my phone as I’m sitting and waiting for an oil change to be done.

First off, Jango doesn't have any reason to lie about his home world. His reputation as one of the best, if not the best, bounty hunters does not rely on where he is from. Almec has every reason to lie about whether Jango is Mandalorian or not. Because he doesn't want to be associated with a notorious bounty hunter.

The same with Watto claiming that his immunity to Mind Tricks is a species characteristic. There is no benefit to him to lie about that.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, Jango doesn't have any reason to lie about his home world. His reputation as one of the best, if not the best, bounty hunters does not rely on where he is from. Almec has every reason to lie about whether Jango is Mandalorian or not. Because he doesn't want to be associated with a notorious bounty hunter.

Nah, claiming to be part of a renowned warrior culture wouldn’t benefit a bounty hunter at all.

38 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The same with Watto claiming that his immunity to Mind Tricks is a species characteristic. There is no benefit to him to lie about that.

Setting aside, for a moment, the implication that’s been brought up regarding how it would be discovered that an entire species is resistant/immune to Jedi mental powers....

“I’m a shady junk dealer on a backwater planet controlled by space Godfathers. I know all about how my entire species’ biology interacts with mental powers used by a group whose galactic ranks number in the tens of thousands. Those wacky Jedi...they try to put the whammy on us Toydarians so frequently that we’re taught in kindergarten to recognize the hand-wave motion they use, and just to laugh at them because we’re immune.

We’re supposed to demand credits from them instead.”

13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Nah, claiming to be part of a renowned warrior culture wouldn’t benefit a bounty hunter at all.

Setting aside, for a moment, the implication that’s been brought up regarding how it would be discovered that an entire species is resistant/immune to Jedi mental powers....

“I’m a shady junk dealer on a backwater planet controlled by space Godfathers. I know all about how my entire species’ biology interacts with mental powers used by a group whose galactic ranks number in the tens of thousands. Those wacky Jedi...they try to put the whammy on us Toydarians so frequently that we’re taught in kindergarten to recognize the hand-wave motion they use, and just to laugh at them because we’re immune.

We’re supposed to demand credits from them instead.”

No, it isn't really necessary for Jango to lie. If he wanted to falsely claim Mandalorian heritage, he would have been better served by claiming to be from Mandalore itself, not some minor colony.

The fact is, however, that Kango never claimed to be from Mandalore he claimed to be from Concord Dawn. This is supported by existing lore.

as for Watto, the fact that he did recognize Qui Gon's "hand-wave" as the Jedi Mind Trick shows that Jedi are well known to be capable of mentally influencing people. This is shown in multiple instances. The Jedi Mind Trick is no secret. It is a well known ability.

Really, however, the issue isn't whether or not Jango actually was Mandalorian, whether by blood or adoption. The issue is whether Almec is a reliable authority on whether Jango is Mandalorian vs Watto being an authority on whether Toydarians are immune to Mind Tricks, and I say that Almec is not a reliable authority on Jango Fett's heritage because of his ulterior motives, his penchant for lying, and overall corruption; while Watto is a reliable authority on Toydarians being immune to Mind Tricks given that he is a Toydarian, he has nothing to gain by lying about it and has shown that he is immune to said power.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn't really necessary for Jango to lie. If he wanted to falsely claim Mandalorian heritage, he would have been better served by claiming to be from Mandalore itself, not some minor colony.

The fact is, however, that Kango never claimed to be from Mandalore he claimed to be from Concord Dawn. This is supported by existing lore.

...which was tossed out with 99.9% of the other "existing lore" in 2014.

Unless, that is, I've missed a "post-Crisis" source where Jango claimed to be from Concord Dawn. In which case, I'm sure you can point me to it, right?

Let's go with it for a moment, though. In Jango's case, claiming ties to Mandalorian warrior culture is more vital to the boost in reputation than the specific point of origin within Mandalore's sphere of control. We don't currently know when Concord Dawn was shattered into the state seen in Rebels. The nature of this destruction could make it attractive to be the location of his claim, as it conceivably makes it more difficult to prove or disprove his claim. But, that's admittedly supposition...because even the claim hasn't been established beyond Pablo Hidalgo's tweet that he "supposes' Jango claimed to be from Concord Dawn...immediately after confirming the Fetts aren't Mandalorian. (Note the lack of distinction of "Mandalorian by blood" and "Mandalorian by adoption and culture." He flat-out says Jango isn't Mandalorian. Full stop. End of line.)

Please note again, I'm not saying it's impossible for Jango to be from Concord Dawn and thus Mandalorian. What I'm saying is that the one and only reference to his status in "post-Crisis" information states that he isn't, and we have Filoni on record as stating the intent of the line was to establish that Jango isn't Mandalorian. I've said more than once that there's some wiggle room for headcanon or personal gaming choices to apply that information without much (if any) disruption to canon (if they're interested in staying within the confines of canon. But, as far as LFL is concerned at this time, Jango's not Mandalorian in any sense of the word.

Which brings us back to Watto. Absolutely, Watto demonstrated resistance to the mind trick, and we agree that he attributed it to his being Toydarian. Right here on Earth, we see people ascribe, for example, higher alcohol tolerance to their nationality. That doesn't make it accurate, but it doesn't make it a lie, either. Watto's strong-willed; I think we can both agree on that. And we have on-screen dialogue and evidence that strong wills are resistant to the mind trick. So, we can conclude that Watto is an authority on his resistance to mind tricks (Which begs the question, how many times has he been on the receiving end of attempts...attempts in which the person who failed said, "Stang! I was trying to mind trick you!"?), but not necessarily an authority on how the entire species responds to them. Did ancillary media take that line and run with it? Sure...just like they've done in other areas, applying the traits of one representative or a single line of dialogue to an entire species and/or culture. Ghosts has a sidebar adopting this same trait, while Enter the Unknown presents Toydarians as a PC species without it (the original question of this thread). Differences like between NPCs and PCs aren't unheard of for this or other RPGs.

I disagree. Hidalgo's statement does allow for this being a "true from a certain point of view" issue. The fact that the claim of being from Concord Dawn is still a part of the canon by word of Pablo Hidalgo, the guy in charge of the canon, opens that door up. And, as I said, the real issue isn't where Jango is really from, but whether Almec is a reliable authority on Jango Fett, and whether he can be considered truthful based upon his record for corruption and deceit, and lack of direct knowledge of Jango beyond reputation. And I say that Almec cannot be considered a reliable authority and cannot be trusted as being truthful because of his political agenda, his corruption, and his lack of personal knowledge of Fett beyond reputation.

Watto, by contrast, can be considered an authority on his own species and traits shared by said species. particularly since he has nothing to gain by lying about it.

I don't want to wade too deep into this discussion, but I do want to remind the thread that Watto did not actually believe that Qui-Gon was a Jedi. Remember, the beginning of the line that's up for debate is:

"What, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that?" Watto obviously had not met a Jedi before that, and he gives no indication at any point later in the movie that he eventually realizes that Qui-Gon is actually a Jedi. He never calls him "Jedi," Qui-Gon never uses any obvious Force powers around him, and even when accusing Qui-Gon of knowing the result of the race beforehand, he only says, "somehow you knew!"

I bring this up because it raises an interesting question: in a non-Toydarian, if a person is strong-minded (and therefore not normally susceptible to mind tricks), are they aware that a mind trick was attempted on them (and that it failed)? If they are, the fact that a literal Jedi Master tried two on him and Watto didn't even notice--to the point that he still thinks Qui-Gon is only pretending to be a Jedi--is evidence that his species is immune. If anyone on whom a mind trick fails is utterly unaware that the attempt was made, then this is less important.

I would also like to remind the thread that Ezra's (and Rey's) early attempts at mind tricks should not be viewed as the strongest evidence, as it's possible they never actually happened - he was still learning the technique, his failures have a high likelihood of, in F&D terms, not actually having the upgrade yet.

1 hour ago, Absol197 said:

I don't want to wade too deep into this discussion, but I do want to remind the thread that Watto did not actually believe that Qui-Gon was a Jedi. Remember, the beginning of the line that's up for debate is:

"What, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that?" Watto obviously had not met a Jedi before that, and he gives no indication at any point later in the movie that he eventually realizes that Qui-Gon is actually a Jedi. He never calls him "Jedi," Qui-Gon never uses any obvious Force powers around him, and even when accusing Qui-Gon of knowing the result of the race beforehand, he only says, "somehow you knew!"

I bring this up because it raises an interesting question: in a non-Toydarian, if a person is strong-minded (and therefore not normally susceptible to mind tricks), are they aware that a mind trick was attempted on them (and that it failed)? If they are, the fact that a literal Jedi Master tried two on him and Watto didn't even notice--to the point that he still thinks Qui-Gon is only pretending to be a Jedi--is evidence that his species is immune. If anyone on whom a mind trick fails is utterly unaware that the attempt was made, then this is less important.

I would also like to remind the thread that Ezra's (and Rey's) early attempts at mind tricks should not be viewed as the strongest evidence, as it's possible they never actually happened - he was still learning the technique, his failures have a high likelihood of, in F&D terms, not actually having the upgrade yet.

I'm with ya for the most part, Absol...except for the bolded. It's not evidence that his species is immune. It's evidence that he, himself, is resistant/immune.

16 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm with ya for the most part, Absol...except for the bolded. It's not evidence that his species is immune. It's evidence that he, himself, is resistant/immune.

No, that's not quite what I said. I said that if a non-toydarian that is unable to be mind-tricked (a.k.a. someone who is "strong-minded") is able to sense that the attempt at least took place, the fact that Watto did not even register Qui-Gon's attempts means that Watto has something more than the typical level of "mind-trick resistance." If this is the case, he attribution of that resistance to his species takes on greater weight.

However, if a normal strong-willed person can't sense the failed attempt, then the fact that Watto doesn't notice it is more likely because of his own personal strength, simply due to it being a simpler explanation.

If the entire argument is predicated on a lack of supporting evidence to a singular statement, we also need to consider that there is no evidence of any other kind of "mind-trick immunity" even hinted at in the current canon other than not being "weak-minded," and Watto's stated Toydarian immunity. If Watto is not strong-minded (as proved by not noticing the attempt when other strong-minded people would have), then the most logical answer is the only other canon statement, instead of creating a new level of mind-trick resistance out of whole cloth. That conclusion, however, does rely on the former assumption, which has not yet been proven here (as far as I'm aware).

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Hidalgo's statement does allow for this being a "true from a certain point of view" issue. The fact that the claim of being from Concord Dawn is still a part of the canon by word of Pablo Hidalgo, the guy in charge of the canon, opens that door up.

You got me there. I sure wish I'd said that the current status allows for wiggle room...oh, a dozen times or so.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, as I said, the real issue isn't where Jango is really from, but whether Almec is a reliable authority on Jango Fett, and whether he can be considered truthful based upon his record for corruption and deceit, and lack of direct knowledge of Jango beyond reputation. And I say that Almec cannot be considered a reliable authority and cannot be trusted as being truthful because of his political agenda, his corruption, and his lack of personal knowledge of Fett beyond reputation.

And, as I said, Almec's statement is the only "post-Crisis" information that we have on the matter, full stop. (Outside, of course, both Filoni's remarks about the intent of the line and Hidalgo's outright statement that Jango isn't Mandalorian.) Almec was ultimately portrayed as corrupt and deceitful...and yet that doesn't call for every statement he made to be incorrect. As it stands, he was, indeed, correct about Jango. What's that old saying about a broken clock?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Watto, by contrast, can be considered an authority on his own species and traits shared by said species. particularly since he has nothing to gain by lying about it.

Watto, by contrast, can be considered an authority on his own status regarding mind tricks. Attributing that to his species - in the same way illustrated earlier, that some will attribute their constitution to their nationality, and other similar socio- or ethno-centric claims/stereotypes that we see demonstrated in our real world - doesn't make that claim a lie. For example, if I tell co-workers here in Texas, "I was born in Ohio. Cold doesn't affect me as badly as it does you," that's not a lie. It's based upon my experience. It doesn't mean my biology does not react the same way as other humans' do to cold, it simply means my comfort level for cold is different than others in my current area. I'm not quite sure where this notion that Watto has been accused of lying is coming from.

3 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

No, that's not quite what I said. I said that if a non-toydarian that is unable to be mind-tricked (a.k.a. someone who is "strong-minded") is able to sense that the attempt at least took place, the fact that Watto did not even register Qui-Gon's attempts means that Watto has something more than the typical level of "mind-trick resistance." If this is the case, he attribution of that resistance to his species takes on greater weight.

However, if a normal strong-willed person can't sense the failed attempt, then the fact that Watto doesn't notice it is more likely because of his own personal strength, simply do to it being a simpler explanation.

If the entire argument is predicated on a lack of supporting evidence to a singular statement, we also need to consider that there is no evidence of any other kind of "mind-trick immunity" even hinted at in the current canon other than not being "weak-minded," and Watto's stated Toydarian immunity. If Watto is not strong-minded (as proved by not noticing the attempt when other strong-minded people would have), then the most logical answer is the only other canon statement, instead of creating a new level of mind-trick resistance out of whole cloth. That conclusion, however, does rely on the former assumption, which has not yet been proven here (as far as I'm aware).

I get it now. It's more a question than statement. Might have to go back and look at the episode where Cad Bane is mind-effed by the group of Jedi. While I watched it relatively recently, it was a few weeks ago before this discussion began. It could be helpful to see at what point he was aware of the attempt to get into his mind. On the other hand, it might not be, as - at least as I recall - he expected at least one of them to try it, and so was actively resisting from the get-go.

12 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I get it now. It's more a question than statement. Might have to go back and look at the episode where Cad Bane is mind-effed by the group of Jedi. While I watched it relatively recently, it was a few weeks ago before this discussion began. It could be helpful to see at what point he was aware of the attempt to get into his mind. On the other hand, it might not be, as - at least as I recall - he expected at least one of them to try it, and so was actively resisting from the get-go.

Cad Bane was aware from the very first try. He was physically struggling to resist the Mind Tricks. With Watto, it didn't even register.

As for Almec, his statement can't be considered authoritative and can't be trusted as anything more than political BS. He is not a reliable witness, regardless of the "intent" of the scene. He lacks the intimate knowledge of the subject, and he isn't trustworthy.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Cad Bane was aware from the very first try. He was physically struggling to resist the Mind Tricks. With Watto, it didn't even register.

Which, as I understand it, is the point of Absol's question, and my thinking out loud about the Cad Bane scene. As you and I both note, he was actively resisting, even before they started. Absol's question is this: if someone were the target of a failed mind trick attempt - say due to being strong-willed - would they even be aware of the attempt. Bane's situation isn't, in retrospect, a good yardstick to use because it was an adversarial encounter to begin with, even before the Jedi refused mental lube.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Almec, his statement can't be considered authoritative and can't be trusted as anything more than political BS. He is not a reliable witness, regardless of the "intent" of the scene. He lacks the intimate knowledge of the subject, and he isn't trustworthy.

You know as a certainty that he "lacks the intimate knowledge of the subject" because...?

I repeat for the 3720th time...there's absolutely nothing established "post-Crisis" to debunk his statement about Jango. Meanwhile, we also have both Filoni and Hidalgo who have spoken to the accuracy of Almec's statement on the matter:

39 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Which, as I understand it, is the point of Absol's question, and my thinking out loud about the Cad Bane scene. As you and I both note, he was actively resisting, even before they started. Absol's question is this: if someone were the target of a failed mind trick attempt - say due to being strong-willed - would they even be aware of the attempt. Bane's situation isn't, in retrospect, a good yardstick to use because it was an adversarial encounter to begin with, even before the Jedi refused mental lube.

You know as a certainty that he "lacks the intimate knowledge of the subject" because...?

I repeat for the 3720th time...there's absolutely nothing established "post-Crisis" to debunk his statement about Jango. Meanwhile, we also have both Filoni and Hidalgo who have spoken to the accuracy of Almec's statement on the matter:

Yes, I am sure. Do you know every intimate detail of every famous person, or infamous one? I know I don't. There is no expectation that Almec would know all that much about Jango aside from his reputation. That, combined with his untrustworthiness, and the fact that his immediately previous statement was also a lie, makes his statement about Jango unreliable.

As for Cas Bane, you missed my point. He could actually tell that the mind Trick was being applied and was thus actively resisting. Watto didn't even realize that the Force was being used. It never even registered.

Seems weird that Almec would speak so passionately and viciously about a dude he barely knows anything about.