31 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Boba was a Journeyman Protector, and did use Jaster's name as an alias for a time. The lore did establish his father as being from Concord Dawn, and adopted by the original Mereel. Now, the new canon hasn't gone into Jango's origins prior to AotC, but it does not contradict what had been previously established either. As for the "Cash" argument. No. don't confuse Watts's greed and his species biology, His statement regarding Toydarians being immune to Min Trick is a statement regarding biology. His additional comment regarding money, was his own personal interests. In other words, he is saying "Mind tricks won't work on me, because I'm a Toydarian. Money will work because that has value."

And prior to AotC requiring that retcon, Boba was Jaster Mereel. Then the selfsame sacrosanct lore (in ancillary media) shifted to accommodate the new information that superseded what had come before. And then came a statement that the Fetts weren't Mandalorian at all. Could it be a snobbish reaction of a character that looks down on them? Sure. I don't think anyone has suggested that it can't be. However, it's the only statement on the matter in the primary media that - until the new canon reboot - addressed the matter at all. While the new canon still hasn't supported (or denied) that claim, it's the only claim we have so far. Even prior to shuffling the EU off to Legends, the observable rule was that the ancillary media counted until and unless contradicted on screen...information on screen (big or small) took precedence. The only on-screen information on the matter then or now is a statement that the Fetts aren't Mandalorians.

I'm not confusing anything about Watto. As you so rightly pointed out, he said, "I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money." If we accept that mind tricks don't work on him because he's Toydarian, with the words that he used, we must also accept that money is the only thing that works on him, also because he's Toydarian. He didn't make the distinction that you claim he did.

Or maybe...just maybe...neither has anything to do with biology. Perhaps Watto sees Toydarians as being universally strong-willed or savvy enough to resist such silly things as mind tricks. It makes as much sense as taking the statement of a single (shady) individual of a species, who's trying to show he holds all the cards in the situation, as universal biological certainty.

21 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

And prior to AotC requiring that retcon, Boba was Jaster Mereel. Then the selfsame sacrosanct lore (in ancillary media) shifted to accommodate the new information that superseded what had come before. And then came a statement that the Fetts weren't Mandalorian at all. Could it be a snobbish reaction of a character that looks down on them? Sure. I don't think anyone has suggested that it can't be. However, it's the only statement on the matter in the primary media that - until the new canon reboot - addressed the matter at all. While the new canon still hasn't supported (or denied) that claim, it's the only claim we have so far. Even prior to shuffling the EU off to Legends, the observable rule was that the ancillary media counted until and unless contradicted on screen...information on screen (big or small) took precedence. The only on-screen information on the matter then or now is a statement that the Fetts aren't Mandalorians.

I'm not confusing anything about Watto. As you so rightly pointed out, he said, "I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money." If we accept that mind tricks don't work on him because he's Toydarian, with the words that he used, we must also accept that money is the only thing that works on him, also because he's Toydarian. He didn't make the distinction that you claim he did.

Or maybe...just maybe...neither has anything to do with biology. Perhaps Watto sees Toydarians as being universally strong-willed or savvy enough to resist such silly things as mind tricks. It makes as much sense as taking the statement of a single (shady) individual of a species, who's trying to show he holds all the cards in the situation, as universal biological certainty.

Actually, with Jango, his history was actually covered directly in comics, specifically Jango Fett: Open Seasons. This is what establishes him as being a native of Concord Dawn, not hearsay and tales, as was the case with Boba Fett once being believed to have been Jaster Mereel. The old canon specifically established that this was a rumor, one of many regarding Boba Fett's origins and identity before AotC. In fact, Boba Fett had multiple conflicting "histories" surrounding him from the very beginning, even before AotC. This was deliberate to add to his air of mystery.

As for Watto, yes, there is a distinction, because not all Toydarias are greedy (their king certainly wasn't) whereas they do all have specific neurological compositions which make them immune to Mind powers. To quote the Wookieepeida Canon page on Mind Tricks:

Quote

The mind trick was said to work only on the weak-minded^[6], and there were certain species, including Toydarians^[4], that were either highly resistant or immune to it.

(emphasis mine).

Toydarians are specifically called out here, and this is supported by multiple other primary sources, including the Essential Guides to Characters (both old and new) as well as the old WotC D20 game (OCRB/RCRB), among others.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Seriously? The taint that is the Mandalorian Debate from another thread has to be transplanted here so it can continue to thrive? Really?

This is how you get invasive species in other ecosystems! Also ants, this is how you get ants.

Sorry about that. I read it earlier today and thought it was the perfect example of his "creative" acceptance of reality. I should have known I wouldn't even make a dent in that bubble.

30 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, with Jango, his history was actually covered directly in comics, specifically Jango Fett: Open Seasons. This is what establishes him as being a native of Concord Dawn, not hearsay and tales, as was the case with Boba Fett once being believed to have been Jaster Mereel. The old canon specifically established that this was a rumor, one of many regarding Boba Fett's origins and identity before AotC. In fact, Boba Fett had multiple conflicting "histories" surrounding him from the very beginning, even before AotC. This was deliberate to add to his air of mystery.

I'm well aware of the comics, thanks. Point remains: we "knew" Boba's history...until the films required it be changed. What it was changed to was still subject to the "counts until and unless contradicted on screen" rule. And, at this point, the only screen statement on the fact would appear to contradict it.

30 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Watto, yes, there is a distinction, because not all Toydarias are greedy (their king certainly wasn't) whereas they do all have specific neurological compositions which make them immune to Mind powers. To quote the Wookieepeida Canon page on Mind Tricks:

(emphasis mine).

Interesting how that emphasis chooses to gloss over the four words immediately preceding your emphasis: "either highly resistant or." But, wait...you're also telling me that one individual isn't representative of an entire species? Despite what he says?

"I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money."

Sure does read like money's the only thing that works on him because he's Toydarian.

30 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Toydarians are specifically called out here, and this is supported by multiple other primary sources, including the Essential Guides to Characters (both old and new) as well as the old WotC D20 game (OCRB/RCRB), among others.

Ancillary media is not a primary source, particularly when such ancillary media is specifically stated to count only until and unless contradicted on screen. The films and tv series are primary sources.

ETA: Just for the record, I totally see your logic. I'm just saying it's not necessarily as cut-and-dried.

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm well aware of the comics, thanks. Point remains: we "knew" Boba's history...until the films required it be changed. What it was changed to was still subject to the "counts until and unless contradicted on screen" rule. And, at this point, the only screen statement on the fact would appear to contradict it.

Interesting how that emphasis chooses to gloss over the four words immediately preceding your emphasis: "either highly resistant or." But, wait...you're also telling me that one individual isn't representative of an entire species? Despite what he says?

"I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money."

Sure does read like money's the only thing that works on him because he's Toydarian.

Ancillary media is not a primary source, particularly when such ancillary media is specifically stated to count only until and unless contradicted on screen. The films and tv series are primary sources.

ETA: Just for the record, I totally see your logic. I'm just saying it's not necessarily as cut-and-dried.

Yes, it is. A "primary source" refers to the original source of any given piece of information.

As for Boba Fett, long before AotC, Boba Fett had multiple contradictory "origins" which were deliberately established to add to his air mystery.

As for Watto, money works on him because he's a businessman, and is trying to earn a living.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it is. A "primary source" refers to the original source of any given piece of information.

By that definition, I'm a primary source. And I say the Fetts are Smurfs.

The sources you cited are ancillary media. Licensed, yes, but subject to the whims and vagaries of LFL, who held the openly-stated policy that such media was only pertinent until and unless contradicted on the large or small screen. One such source - Clone Wars - contradicted it. And, if a single Toydarian's statement on screen can establish a species-wide fact to your satisfaction, it's puzzling that a single Mandalorian's statement on screen can't do likewise.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Watto, money works on him because he's a businessman, and is trying to earn a living.

Then why did he say money only works on him because he's a Toydarian? He didn't mention business at all. "I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money."

43 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

By that definition, I'm a primary source. And I say the Fetts are Smurfs.

The sources you cited are ancillary media. Licensed, yes, but subject to the whims and vagaries of LFL, who held the openly-stated policy that such media was only pertinent until and unless contradicted on the large or small screen. One such source - Clone Wars - contradicted it. And, if a single Toydarian's statement on screen can establish a species-wide fact to your satisfaction, it's puzzling that a single Mandalorian's statement on screen can't do likewise.

Then why did he say money only works on him because he's a Toydarian? He didn't mention business at all. "I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money."

You're not a recognized authority.?

Watto is a buyer and seller of merchandise. As such, money is very important to him. He wants to be paid in "real" currency. That has nothing to do with biology. By contrast, his immunity to Mind powers is directly tied to biology.

The other key difference between Watts's statement and Almec's is a Matter of how intimate of knowledge the character has on the subject he is talking about. Watto would be very knowledgeable about his own species' biology. If he is making a statement regarding the biology of his own species, this is authoritative. By contrast, Almere likely only knows of Jango Fett by reputation, not first hand knowledge of his history and lineage. Therefore, we can conclude that his statement is colored by Fett's profession and lack of being born on Mandalore proper. He is prejudiced against Fett. This colors his statement within the story. That is a major distinction.

29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're not a recognized authority.?

Watto is a buyer and seller of merchandise. As such, money is very important to him. He wants to be paid in "real" currency. That has nothing to do with biology. By contrast, his immunity to Mind powers is directly tied to biology.

"I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money." He states his species, marking it as why mind tricks don't work on him, then states what will work on him. Based upon the syntax provided, both the "immunity" to mind tricks and susceptibility to monetary enticement are both the result of being Toydarian.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The other key difference between Watts's statement and Almec's is a Matter of how intimate of knowledge the character has on the subject he is talking about. Watto would be very knowledgeable about his own species' biology. If he is making a statement regarding the biology of his own species, this is authoritative. By contrast, Almere likely only knows of Jango Fett by reputation, not first hand knowledge of his history and lineage. Therefore, we can conclude that his statement is colored by Fett's profession and lack of being born on Mandalore proper. He is prejudiced against Fett. This colors his statement within the story. That is a major distinction.

So a single Toydarian is an authority on Toydarians, but a single Mandalorian is not an authority on Mandalorians. Got it.

So...we should have no problem finding an on-screen reference that puts the lie to Almere's statement, right?

4 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

"I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money." He states his species, marking it as why mind tricks don't work on him, then states what will work on him. Based upon the syntax provided, both the "immunity" to mind tricks and susceptibility to monetary enticement are both the result of being Toydarian.

So a single Toydarian is an authority on Toydarians, but a single Mandalorian is not an authority on Mandalorians. Got it.

So...we should have no problem finding an on-screen reference that puts the lie to Almere's statement, right?

No. A single Toydarian would certainly be an authority on his own species biology, but one person, regardless of species, would not necessarily be an authority on another person's heritage, particularly if that person was only known by reputation or profession.

For instance, As. A human being, I can say with some authority that humans are sentient mammals with a wide variety of languages. However, I cannot claim authority on knowing the difinitive heritage of a single individual I have never met.

As for monetary enticement being biologically hardwired into Toydarians, no more so than any other species. Money is a commodity used for the exchange of goods often necessary for survival. It has value. That is inherently enticing for anyone, regardless of race. The difference is that certain "currencies" aren't necessarily acceptable everywhere. That has nothing to do with biology. How naturally resistant or immune to a given substance, or stimulus, etc. however, does. Immunities are biologically hardwired into species or individuals.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Watto would be very knowledgeable about his own species' biology

How many people do you think know what a pancreas is and how it works?

9 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

How many people do you think know what a pancreas is and how it works?

Force immunity seems more like knowledge of the susceptibility or resistance to sunburn than knowing how the insides of your body look. It's something you can learn from experience (at the personal or species scale) without having to cut up a body.

On 10/24/2017 at 5:49 PM, Stan Fresh said:

It's not a Disney retcon. IIRC, both Toydarians and Hutts had a mind trick resistance in at least saga edition.

I just looked through D6 GalGuide #4 and Hutts get extra dice, not fully immune so yup you're correct. Dunno really, it's a game. If your the GM change it.... I'd probably House Rule some sort of extra ability not total immunity as it could train wreck an encounter.

We don't need no Immunities, We just want some Influence....yes it's an awful paraphrase of Pink Floyd. I'll get my coat

20 minutes ago, ExpandingUniverse said:

Dunno really, it's a game. If your the GM change it....

That is of course always a possibility, but it's a somewhat different topic from discussing the intent of a rule and the thinking behind it.

1 hour ago, Vorzakk said:

How many people do you think know what a pancreas is and how it works?

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Force immunity seems more like knowledge of the susceptibility or resistance to sunburn than knowing how the insides of your body look. It's something you can learn from experience (at the personal or species scale) without having to cut up a body.

Stan is correct here.

10 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

So a single Toydarian is an authority on Toydarians, but a single Mandalorian is not an authority on Mandalorians. Got it.

You've done this thread a service by pointing out this absurdity again and again.

13 minutes ago, themensch said:

You've done this thread a service by pointing out this absurdity again and again.

Not really, because those statements are an authority on different things; one is talking about a species wide trait (which might have circulated in local culture for many years) to an outsider, which may or may not be true. However, genetics only differs so much and thus one can claim to be an authority on their own species. Given that Watto had resisted mind trick not once but twice effortlessly indicates his claim may not be without cause; of course theres there is a possibility he is lying, but given that Luca's tendency to introduce cool things all the time and to make up stuff as he goes along, it probably is very true.

Politicians lie all the time, or rather reinvent the truth in a way that justify their own means. It's credible that this one person would discard Jango as a Mandolorian because his agenda doesn't suit that of his countrymen, thus by disregarding Jango he could be claiming "look, what Jango does isn't a representation of our people. He is on his own". Basically, Jango is being disowned by another Mandolorian, which given the context that he was a major instigator in the clone wars makes sense. He tried to bump off a senator. Whether or not he is or isn't a mandolorian may or may not be true depending on your point of view.

Personally I have no stake in this discussion, I think finding Canon in Star Wars is like pulling teeth, or arguing custard can only ever be pink because the teletubbys have pink custard. I am personally go to the movies and comment on whether it was a compelling story or not. I liked Force Awakens but I thought Rogue 1 was about as interesting as good as episode 2. E.g. not really good.

23 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Not really,

I appreciate your opinion, but I do not share it. I like how Nytwyng is pointing out the absurdity of clinging steadfastly to the validity of dialog as canon or not, and how it is widely open to interpretation.

Now that we have multiple canonical examples that being exposed to the vacuum of space doesn't affect humans, I would posit that if Toydarians are immune to the force, Humans are immune to the vacuum of space. This wasn't dialog, this was actually depicted.

18 minutes ago, themensch said:

I appreciate your opinion, but I do not share it. I like how Nytwyng is pointing out the absurdity of clinging steadfastly to the validity of dialog as canon or not, and how it is widely open to interpretation.

Now that we have multiple canonical examples that being exposed to the vacuum of space doesn't affect humans, I would posit that if Toydarians are immune to the force, Humans are immune to the vacuum of space. This wasn't dialog, this was actually depicted.

Whether you agreed or not isn't the issue. This is a matter of facts not opinions. These are either true or false. There is no room for "opinion".

. Toydarians are either immune to Mind Tricks or they aren't. the canon says that they are. This is a matter of fact. Watts's statement is authoritative because he is referring to a general knowledge of his own species biology proven by his own immunity to Mind Tricks. Therefore we are intended to take his word as true in this regard.

Almec, by contrast is a politician with a specific agenda and no real knowledge of Jang Fett's heritage. All he really knows about him is that he's a bounty hunter by trade. This is a completely different context and basis for the dialogue presented. Almec is not an authority on Jango Fett, whereas Watto is an authority on his own species general biology. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

28 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is a matter of facts not opinions.

Fiction, by its very nature, is not factual. Let's talk about that human immunity to vacuum, shall we?

8 minutes ago, themensch said:

Fiction, by its very nature, is not factual.

I'll have you know that any information gleamed from the dialogue in a children's TV show about magic space knights is entirely fact-based, thank you very much.

15 minutes ago, themensch said:

Fiction, by its very nature, is not factual. Let's talk about that human immunity to vacuum, shall we?

Considering that we see plenty of others die horribly in the vacuum of space, I'd have to say that you are way off base. Can you survive for a few moments, possibly, but not for more than a few seconds. This isn't just canon, it's physics.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Watts's statement is authoritative because he is referring to a general knowledge of his own species biology proven by his own immunity to Mind Tricks.

How would this even be known? Did the old Republic conduct studies to determine which of their member species was most susceptible to being mind-violated by their 'peacekeepers'?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This isn't just canon, it's physics.

It's also physics that 30m tall biped could not exist, and yet the Gorax appear to still be canon.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Considering that we see plenty of others die horribly in the vacuum of space, I'd have to say that you are way off base. Can you survive for a few moments, possibly, but not for more than a few seconds. This isn't just canon, it's physics.

I dunno, there's a long period of time in an exogorth, then there's Ezra and Kanan riding on the back of hyperspace whales in open vacuum. Pretty canonical. But you're surely not arguing physics in a setting where space wizards with laser swords rule the day, are you?

For my own two copper,

on the Mind trick, I just view it all as under this banner, from Obi-wan in ANH:

Quote

Luke Skywalker: I don't understand how we got by those troops. I thought we were dead.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

for me, that kinda means, someone who's not weak minded, the trick doesn't work. Even in the whole Cad Bane interrogation it took 3 super duper force users to even make that happen, and by their own dialog could have permanently damaged Bane... I know, in the game we kinda use it quite a bit, but I don't think it was originally intended to be able to just give cart-blanch pass to Jedi to change folks brains/memory/thought...

For the Mandalore/Fett thing... I kinda thought Dave Filoni shut that down in the "Creating Mandalore" short:

Quote

"So, the idea that Jango Fett is not a Mandalorian - that's something that comes directly from George. I think that - when we fist saw Jango in Attack of the Clones - that a lot of us, myself included, we assumed, "Oh, he must be a Mandalorian. There he is in Mandalorian armor." So, there's kind of this early assumption that Jango must be a Mandalorian. That was interesting to see. But, that was never stated in the film. It's never stated that he's Mandalorian. He's always just referred to as a bounty hunter." - Dave Filoni

Emphasis mine.

13 minutes ago, themensch said:

I dunno, there's a long period of time in an exogorth, then there's Ezra and Kanan riding on the back of hyperspace whales in open vacuum. Pretty canonical. But you're surely not arguing physics in a setting where space wizards with laser swords rule the day, are you?

And both Kanan and Ezra were wearing vacuum-sealed suits with helmets specifically to protect them from the vacuum of space.