4 minutes ago, themensch said:

True, Cad Bane was worn down, but it took the work of several Jedi, including masters, to manage it.

http://showcase.starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick

Yes, it did. But even when one Jedi was trying it, it took its toll on him. Watto was completely uneffected by Qui Gon's attempts.

Just now, themensch said:

I'm 100% happy with you interpreting canon however you see fit for your game; but I'm also 100% unconvinced, per canon, that it is true. What I'm reading suggests a less black & white answer.

It is black and white. They either are immune or they're not, and canonically Toydarians are immune to Mind Tricks.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It has always been established in cano n that Toydarians are immune to "Mind Tricks". It's explicitly stated in TPM by Watto that the reason why Qui Gon's mind trick wouldn't work on him was because he was a Toydarian. To quote" I'm a Toydarian; Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money."

And you think Watto is a reliable source of information?

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It is black and white. They either are immune or they're not, and canonically Toydarians are immune to Mind Tricks.

I'm sorry, your argument does little to convince me. Your only evidence is dialog from a shady junk dealer in the most despised episode of the franchise, whereas every other source noted as canon claims that it is a resistance. Bold all you like, that doesn't make it canon my friend.

I mean, if we're going to consider what characters say equates to canon, how's about that indestructible battlestation that has nothing to fear from a small group of starfighters? Or how Luke is so dead, since the Emperor said "now you die." Seems like there's plenty of room for interpretation here.

Oh effing s... for this forum. It again lost my carefully crafter reply. Let's try again.

Personally I dislike the immunity. It's boring. And game balance wise, it makes droid even less desirable species choice, by taking away one of their advantage, and giving it to better species. I will be ignoring it in my games. It someone uses it, I have no problem with that. Both ways can exist same time (maybe not in same campaign though).

And about Watto - Qui Con scene. IMO the main point is whether you want to interpret it literally or figuratively, i.e. Watto told truth or Watto lied. I personally, I interpret it figuratively, as IMO that makes Watto more badass, as he recognizes what jedi tried to do, and resisted on his mere willpower. So I'm with Maelora on this one. Though I understand the point of seeing it literally. Personally, I just don't see it adding anything to game or movie. If someone interprets that scene literally, I don't have any problem with it.

Disclaimer: I haven't yet gotten my copy of the book, because it comes to the periferia in delay. So what I said is purely based on information on this thread.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. As I told @themensch, Why would he lie when the truth is more effective. There is a reason why someone would be completely immune to Mind Tricks, even multiple back-to-back attempts. Just being "Strong willed" isn't enough, because even a strong will can be broken through with enough skill and effort with the power, as evidenced by even Cad Bane being eventually worn down by the power. Toydarians are canonically immune to the Influence power.

Sure it could be that he is legit immune and he could be telling the truth. But I am positing that alternatively since he was aware he was trying to be influenced, he responded in such a way to inform Qui gon, "Yo! I know what you are doing, cut that out". And the statement of "mind tricks don't work on toydarians, only money" is simply his way of saying, "don't try that again"

Ultimately it doesn't matter if Watto's statement of Toydarians being immune is true or not. It's as @Maelora proposed: Watto is immune (to those 2 specific instances) because of plot, because otherwise there is no story. That doesn't mean I need to extrapolate the entire race to be.

Just now, SavageBob said:

And you think Watto is a reliable source of information?

Do we really have anything to refute his statement?

Just now, themensch said:

I'm sorry, your argument does little to convince me. Your only evidence is dialog from a shady junk dealer in the most despised episode of the franchise, whereas every other source noted as canon claims that it is a resistance. Bold all you like, that doesn't make it canon my friend.

Just because he's a junk dealer, with a gambling problem does not necessarily make him "shady". And the actual sources stated them to be immune, not just resistant.

1 minute ago, themensch said:

I mean, if we're going to consider what characters say equates to canon, how's about that indestructible battlestation that has nothing to fear from a small group of starfighters? Or how Luke is so dead, since the Emperor said "now you die." Seems like there's plenty of room for interpretation here.

In both of those instances, those statements are proven false. We don't have that with Watto's statement regarding Toydarian immunity to Mind Tricks. IF Watto was trying to make an idle boast, he wouldn't have used his Species as a reason. He would have used his own will as if to say, "That won't work on me because I'm too tough". Instead, he attributes his immunity to his species. And he doesn't say it as a "boast" but, rather, as a matter of fact. This is in direct contrast to Jabba, who makes no such claims about his species, just himself.

3 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:

Sure it could be that he is legit immune and he could be telling the truth. But I am positing that alternatively since he was aware he was trying to be influenced, he responded in such a way to inform Qui gon, "Yo! I know what you are doing, cut that out". And the statement of "mind tricks don't work on toydarians, only money" is simply his way of saying, "don't try that again"

Ultimately it doesn't matter if Watto's statement of Toydarians being immune is true or not. It's as @Maelora proposed: Watto is immune (to those 2 specific instances) because of plot, because otherwise there is no story. That doesn't mean I need to extrapolate the entire race to be.

Under most circumstances I would agree, as with Jabba, who made no such claim regarding his species, only himself. Watto's statement, however, is about his whole species. It is a cononical attribution given to the Toydarian species as a whole, and with no evidence to the contrary, the statement is canon. Toydarians are canonically immune to the Influence power.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Do we really have anything to refute his statement?

Just because he's a junk dealer, with a gambling problem does not necessarily make him "shady". And the actual sources stated them to be immune, not just resistant.

In both of those instances, those statements are proven false. We don't have that with Watto's statement regarding Toydarian immunity to Mind Tricks. IF Watto was trying to make an idle boast, he wouldn't have used his Species as a reason. He would have used his own will as if to say, "That won't work on me because I'm too tough". Instead, he attributes his immunity to his species. And he doesn't say it as a "boast" but, rather, as a matter of fact. This is in direct contrast to Jabba, who makes no such claims about his species, just himself.

Hm, a junk dealer with a gambling problem? I'm inherently inclined to distrust such an individual. Kudos to your open mind, my friend!

Still, you are only referencing one canonical source, dubious at best, whereas I am referencing the bulk of canonical sources as compiled by wookiepedia. While I am reminded of another few arguments where one finding is at odds with the findings of hundreds of other individuals, I am not apt to repeat a climate change or vaccination equivalency just yet. Yet, that is the equivalency in front of us.

6 minutes ago, themensch said:

Hm, a junk dealer with a gambling problem? I'm inherently inclined to distrust such an individual. Kudos to your open mind, my friend!

Still, you are only referencing one canonical source, dubious at best, whereas I am referencing the bulk of canonical sources as compiled by wookiepedia. While I am reminded of another few arguments where one finding is at odds with the findings of hundreds of other individuals, I am not apt to repeat a climate change or vaccination equivalency just yet. Yet, that is the equivalency in front of us.

That's just it though, I've actually read those original sources. And they all stated that Toydarians were immune. Wookieepedia, is not always 100% accurate. It's a good compilation of material for quick reference, but not a replacement for actually looking at the original sources. And the most important source, which all others must adhere to is the movies themselves. And the movies establish that Toydarians are immune to the Influence power. And, for the record, whether we like it or not, most of those other sources are no longer canon since they predate the Disney buyout.

And as for Watto being a Junk Dealer and a gambler, we see no evidence in the movie that he is a liar. He shows himself to be quite honest in his business dealings and expects others to be as well.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

That's just it though, I've actually read those original sources. And they all stated that Toydarians were immune. Wookieepedia, is not always 100% accurate. It's a good compilation of material for quick reference, but not a replacement for actually looking at the original sources. And the most important source, which all others must adhere to is the movies themselves. And the movies establish that Toydarians are immune to the Influence power. And, for the record, whether we like it or not, most of those other sources are no longer canon since they predate the Disney buyout.

So, yeah, wookieepedia does differentiate between canon and legends. However, your original source is still a character's dialog. I would argue, though, that while wookieepedia is a compilation, it is done in good faith and accurate to canon if noted as canon. As you're likely aware, Star Wars fans are apt to be rabid in these discussions and anything inaccurate would be flagged thus.

The debate regarding dialog as canon appears to still be raging, and I'll let people that care that much shoulder the weight of the debate. For me, it's dialog and inherently subjective. One could find dozens of other examples that demonstrate the same concept.

p.s. I've read the original sources too. Plus the comics! Plus all the other canonical material that applies. So I reckon we can zip up and get back to the actual discussion instead of bringing forth the toolbox of bad arguments.

1 minute ago, themensch said:

So, yeah, wookieepedia does differentiate between canon and legends. However, your original source is still a character's dialog. I would argue, though, that while wookieepedia is a compilation, it is done in good faith and accurate to canon if noted as canon. As you're likely aware, Star Wars fans are apt to be rabid in these discussions and anything inaccurate would be flagged thus.

The debate regarding dialog as canon appears to still be raging, and I'll let people that care that much shoulder the weight of the debate. For me, it's dialog and inherently subjective. One could find dozens of other examples that demonstrate the same concept.

p.s. I've read the original sources too. Plus the comics! Plus all the other canonical material that applies. So I reckon we can zip up and get back to the actual discussion instead of bringing forth the toolbox of bad arguments.

It doesn't matter if it's dialog or not. It's still the primary source and, most importantly, from the highest priority source: the movie. Not only that, but there is nothing in the rest of the movies, nor in other sources which contradict it.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It doesn't matter if it's dialog or not. It's still the primary source and, most importantly, from the highest priority source: the movie. Not only that, but there is nothing in the rest of the movies, nor in other sources which contradict it.

True, but there is also nothing else that backs it up!

I can see there's no point to continue discussing - I concede that you could be right. The evidence isn't so clear to me, and I choose to see it differently in my games.

Just now, themensch said:

True, but there is also nothing else that backs it up!

I can see there's no point to continue discussing - I concede that you could be right. The evidence isn't so clear to me, and I choose to see it differently in my games.

That isn't the point. Without anything to refute it, we must consider it true because, we do see Watto being completely unaffected by the Influence power, and we are given a reason for that.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That isn't the point. Without anything to refute it, we must consider it true because, we do see Watto being completely unaffected by the Influence power, and we are given a reason for that.

That's definitely one interpretation all right. Good luck to you!

49 minutes ago, themensch said:

That's definitely one interpretation all right. Good luck to you!

And canonically, the only one that matters.

Given that it's GMs who read adventure modules and the blurb in the book is directed at NPC Toydarians (with no mention of player character Toydarians), I'd say this is aimed as something for GMs to bring up for NPC Toydarians if the players seem like they'll be abusing Influence or Misdirect. It certainly wouldn't apply to PC Toydarians, IMO.

Does that that say toydoriana or NPC toydorians. A toydorian is a toydorian

7 hours ago, MonCal said:

Does that that say toydoriana or NPC toydorians. A toydorian is a toydorian

Not in this game. Compare, for instance, the Chagrian character on p. 61 of The Jewel of Yavin: There's no mention of the species' amphibious nature, while PC Chagrians do get that special ability. Similarly, the blurbs for the Pantoran characters in The Jewel of Yavin (pp. 89–90) make no mention of cold resistance, while PC Pantorans get that ability.

Now, GMs are within their rights to make all Toydarians immune to Force mind tricks. That's the GM's prerogative. But looking for justification for this from NPC game stats is a fool's errand. This game makes a sharp distinction between PCs and NPCs, so there's no real rhyme or reason for how the game treats a character's species on either side of that binary.

On 10/24/2017 at 4:50 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Under most circumstances I would agree, as with Jabba, who made no such claim regarding his species, only himself. Watto's statement, however, is about his whole species. It is a cononical attribution given to the Toydarian species as a whole, and with no evidence to the contrary, the statement is canon. Toydarians are canonically immune to the Influence power.

Quoted from the Mandalorian thread...

On 10/24/2017 at 2:51 PM, Stan Fresh said:

It's also been said by a Mandalorian politician that Jango was just someone who stole the armor, IIRC. It's in Clone Wars.

On 10/24/2017 at 3:51 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Right, I remember that episode, which means that Boba Fett (Jango's clone) isn't Mandalorian either, which means that Boba Fett...the poster boy for Mandalorian Awesomeness, isn't Mandalorian. Which amuses me to no end.

On 10/24/2017 at 3:58 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

However, those statements can also be read differently too. According to the old lore, Jango was born on Concord Dawn, not Mandalore. Thus, while Concord Dawn is a Mandalorian colony world, the natives could be considered "non-Mandalorian" because they weren't from Mandalore proper, while still being Mandalorian by culture. This is how I view Prime Minister Almec's statement.

----

You are awfully inconstant with your acceptance of what is said in canon. Character A said Y.. "IT MUST BE 100% TRUE!!!" Character B said Z.. "This is how I view this statement..."

1 minute ago, Ahrimon said:

Quoted from the Mandalorian thread...

----

You are awfully inconstant with your acceptance of what is said in canon. Character A said Y.. "IT MUST BE 100% TRUE!!!" Character B said Z.. "This is how I view this statement..."

The difference is that one has evidence that is contrary to the statement, established in the lore, and can be interpreted multiple ways, whereas the other does not. Watto's statement is a statement of facts regarding the biology of his own species. Almec's statement is a statement of opinion regarding an individual he probably only knows of by reputation. That is a big difference.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference is that one has evidence that is contrary to the statement, established in the lore, and can be interpreted multiple ways,

Would this be the same lore that established beyond a shadow of a doubt that Boba Fett was a career Journeyman Protector from Concord Dawn named Jaster Mereel?

While we're at it, though, I guess, if we're going by that "statement of biology regarding (Watto's) own species," we should accept as incontrovertible fact that the one and only thing that can influence a Toydarian is cash. Because that's Toydarian biology, too, right?

Seriously? The taint that is the Mandalorian Debate from another thread has to be transplanted here so it can continue to thrive? Really?

This is how you get invasive species in other ecosystems! Also ants, this is how you get ants.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Would this be the same lore that established beyond a shadow of a doubt that Boba Fett was a career Journeyman Protector from Concord Dawn named Jaster Mereel?

While we're at it, though, I guess, if we're going by that "statement of biology regarding (Watto's) own species," we should accept as incontrovertible fact that the one and only thing that can influence a Toydarian is cash. Because that's Toydarian biology, too, right?

Boba was a Journeyman Protector, and did use Jaster's name as an alias for a time. The lore did establish his father as being from Concord Dawn, and adopted by the original Mereel. Now, the new canon hasn't gone into Jango's origins prior to AotC, but it does not contradict what had been previously established either. As for the "Cash" argument. No. don't confuse Watts's greed and his species biology, His statement regarding Toydarians being immune to Min Trick is a statement regarding biology. His additional comment regarding money, was his own personal interests. In other words, he is saying "Mind tricks won't work on me, because I'm a Toydarian. Money will work because that has value."