With the release of Ghosts of Dathomir comes a well-hidden sidebar on pg. 19 stating that Toydarians are completely immune to mental influencing powers of The Force including Misdirection and Influence. The Toydarian PC write-up contains none of this information. Is it safe to understand that PC Toydarians should also benefit from this ability? As it stands, they're a rather weak species (no skill boosts or innate talents) and maybe this could help boost their viability...
Ghosts of Dathomir, Toydarians, and You!
A Toydorian is a Toydorian. being a PC or not is irrelevant.
Seems like a good addition given that they ARE immune to the force. In a game where force users are EVERYWHERE (too common for my tastes; it looks like the clones were quite unreliable implementing Order 66...) it can be nice, even if not overpowered as an ability.
I would use it for PC.
I would also burn their planet down along with Midiclorians, Greedo's lousy shot, Han Solo stepping on Jabba and the Millenium Falcon survivng a planet crash, since I do not find them interesting at all and/or find that they detract from the felling of SW, but hey. Well, I do not hate Toydorians at that level in the phantom menace (I liked them there in fact, one of the few good things of that movie) but the ones that appear in the clone wars cartoons are very poor as a culture and do not add anything to the storyline.
Edited by MonCalI agree with MonCal, that it is irrelevant in regard to being a PC. It's pretty much the same when I played other RPGs, the same bonuses and characteristics of a species are for all members of the species.
Personally I don't like the idea that certain species are Immune to force persuade or the force in general. I think it is a common problem of the EU, one of planet of Hats Trope. Luke fails his force persuade roll against Jabba and now all Hutts are immune to Force Persuasion? And again with Watto? It couldn't simply be a matter of those individuals happen to not be weak minded; nope, its gotta be their entire race is immune. Just seems like a lack of creativity there.
If I conceded that certain races are more resistant I would simply Run it as the check as harder, with upgrades or setbacks. Which I can't remember specifics, but in other Star wars RPG's if i remember correctly there were certain races that got bonus on saves vs the force (ie like +2 to will save vs force persuade)
Either way, immune or not, I agree that it is generally irrelevant for PCs but not for the reasons mentioned by others. From my perspective, the reason I think it is irrelevant for PCs is that it would be an extremely rare scenario where I would use force persuade on/against my PCs. The reason: players really, really don't like loosing their agency. An NPC Force persuading a PC to force them to do something they don't want to do? Rarely if ever goes over well. Hence, regardless of race, I basically treat all my PC's as immune to Force Persuasion. The only time I might make an exception is for dramatic storytelling, in which the the PC is swayed but briefly and then almost immediately breaks free. Even then I would be very Wary.
This is typical canon nonsense - at times, the movies demand that the protagonists just don't Influence their way out of everything, even when that's what would probably happen.
George gets fretful, and with a light-bulb of inspiration, he resorts to his time-honoured Author Saving Throw: the 'A s s Pull' http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull
(yes, the same wonderful technique that gave us 'midichlorians', Han Shot Last, and 'hyper-space'...)
Which, of course, is bobbins, and (for the FFG game itself) this is a Disney retcon, as previously neither Hutts nor Toydarians had any such immunity as PCs or NPCs.
Needless to say the MarcyVerse suffers no such bobbins. Watto was a wily trader who drove a hard bargain, and Jabba (before his grisly demise) was a tough-talking lifelong crime boss who negotiated from a position of strength. As such, they would have a high Willpower and a few ranks of Nobody's Fool. You could try and Influence them, but they'd have a decent chance of making their saves against most opposition.
And that way we don't have to change the whole galaxy to account for a few NPC with good Will saves.
Edited by MaeloraIt's not a Disney retcon. IIRC, both Toydarians and Hutts had a mind trick resistance in at least saga edition.
25 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:From my perspective, the reason I think it is irrelevant for PCs is that it would be an extremely rare scenario where I would use force persuade on/against my PCs. The reason: players really, really don't like loosing their agency. An NPC Force persuading a PC to force them to do something they don't want to do? Rarely if ever goes over well.
I broadly agree, but this game has rules for Social Combat and talents like Nobody's Fool. So to a degree, NPCs are meant to use both mundane and Force persuasion against them. You don't want to make these abilities useless or upset those who chose a high Willpower character or took ranks in social defence talents either.
Of course, if the players feel they lack agency, that's a quick way to alienate your table, as you rightly point out.
Everyone is different here, I tend to use a compromise personally. Loss of strain is usually a good thing, if they are determined to resist and it's absolutely in character. They might get a chance to stagger out before they completely lose their will. And I give bonus XP if the charmed player goes along with it, as if it were a temporary Motivation.
Players do need agency, but also they should be as wary of sitting down with Savan Sizhran (a falleen with great social skills) as climbing into a rancor pit stark naked....
22 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:It's not a Disney retcon. IIRC, both Toydarians and Hutts had a mind trick resistance in at least saga edition.
It's a retcon for the FFG game, which didn't mention any such resistance, beyond a high starting Willpower and that several NPCs like the Hutt Crime Boss Nemesis possess ranks in Nobody's Fool.
He actually has Will 5 and 3 ranks of Nobody's Fool, making him a tough proposition for most Influence attempts.
We don't need 'immunities' when the rules themselves can accurately reflect what is going on.
Edited by Maelora12 minutes ago, Maelora said:It's a retcon for the FFG game, which didn't mention any such resistance, beyond a high starting Willpower and that several NPCs like the Hutt Crime Boss Nemesis possess ranks in Nobody's Fool.
He actually has Will 5 and 3 ranks of Nobody's Fool, making hima touch proposition for most Influence attempts.
We don't need 'immunities' when the rules themselves can accurately reflect what is going on.
The flavor text for the Toydarian species mentions their Force resistance.
Not having read Ghosts this seems more like a clarification of the species write-up's intent than a retcon. The flavor text is just as important as the stat block, after all.
I seem to remember an Order 66 podcast where one of the writers of Enter the Unknown was on. Sorry, can't remember who or when. But he said that the intent with the Toydarians in that book was to gesture at possible Force-resistance without mandating it. Their stance then was that it should be left up to the GM how to handle it. This current book is therefore in error, a shift in ruling, or intended for NPCs in that adventure only IMHO.
4 hours ago, MonCal said:In a game where force users are EVERYWHERE (too common for my tastes; it looks like the clones were quite unreliable implementing Order 66...)
Ah, just a thought, but F&D isn't quite the same as a Star Wars Galaxies or The Old Republic. It's not a shared universe sort of game. A group of F&D players may be some of the few in the galaxy, if that's what the game world is saying.
Order 66 was specifically directed at the Jedi anyway, not Force in general. That's what the Inquisitors are for.
In the past, interviewed devs tend to claim that later materials are the "correct" versions, but this here is a great question to ask them! A Force Immunity power would surely need to be reflected in the XP total for character creation.
3 hours ago, ThreeAM said:Personally I don't like the idea that certain species are Immune to force persuade or the force in general. I think it is a common problem of the EU, one of planet of Hats Trope. Luke fails his force persuade roll against Jabba and now all Hutts are immune to Force Persuasion? And again with Watto? It couldn't simply be a matter of those individuals happen to not be weak minded; nope, its gotta be their entire race is immune. Just seems like a lack of creativity there.
If I conceded that certain races are more resistant I would simply Run it as the check as harder, with upgrades or setbacks. Which I can't remember specifics, but in other Star wars RPG's if i remember correctly there were certain races that got bonus on saves vs the force (ie like +2 to will save vs force persuade)
Either way, immune or not, I agree that it is generally irrelevant for PCs but not for the reasons mentioned by others. From my perspective, the reason I think it is irrelevant for PCs is that it would be an extremely rare scenario where I would use force persuade on/against my PCs. The reason: players really, really don't like loosing their agency. An NPC Force persuading a PC to force them to do something they don't want to do? Rarely if ever goes over well. Hence, regardless of race, I basically treat all my PC's as immune to Force Persuasion. The only time I might make an exception is for dramatic storytelling, in which the the PC is swayed but briefly and then almost immediately breaks free. Even then I would be very Wary.
3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:It's not a Disney retcon. IIRC, both Toydarians and Hutts had a mind trick resistance in at least saga edition.
2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:The flavor text for the Toydarian species mentions their Force resistance.
Not having read Ghosts this seems more like a clarification of the species write-up's intent than a retcon. The flavor text is just as important as the stat block, after all.
2 hours ago, SavageBob said:I seem to remember an Order 66 podcast where one of the writers of Enter the Unknown was on. Sorry, can't remember who or when. But he said that the intent with the Toydarians in that book was to gesture at possible Force-resistance without mandating it. Their stance then was that it should be left up to the GM how to handle it. This current book is therefore in error, a shift in ruling, or intended for NPCs in that adventure only IMHO.
6 minutes ago, themensch said:In the past, interviewed devs tend to claim that later materials are the "correct" versions, but this here is a great question to ask them! A Force Immunity power would surely need to be reflected in the XP total for character creation.
It has always been established in cano n that Toydarians are immune to "Mind Tricks". It's explicitly stated in TPM by Watto that the reason why Qui Gon's mind trick wouldn't work on him was because he was a Toydarian. To quote" I'm a Toydarian; Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money."
4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:It has always been established in cano n that Toydarians are immune to "Mind Tricks". It's explicitly stated in TPM by Watto that the reason why Qui Gon's mind trick wouldn't work on him was because he was a Toydarian. To quote" I'm a Toydarian; Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money."
Of course no Toydarian would ever lie for their own benefit.
Just now, themensch said:Of course no Toydarian would ever lie for their own benefit.
Not when the truth is far more effective. Qui Gon tried at least twice to mind trick Watto. He failed completely both times. And the reason why is because of Toydarian physiology.
3 minutes ago, themensch said:Of course no Toydarian would ever lie for their own benefit.
So he's lying about immunity while demonstrating immunity?
5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:To quote" I'm a Toydarian; Mind Tricks don't work on me, only money."
Just now, themensch said:Of course no Toydarian would ever lie for their own benefit.
@themensch beat me to it. One could easily interpret (and I do) this is the equivalent of a gambler winning a hand and then saying "see kid, I never loose". Its not an Objective truth, its Watto's subjective truth that he is projecting as Objective.
4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Not when the truth is far more effective. Qui Gon tried at least twice to mind trick Watto. He failed completely both times. And the reason why is because of Toydarian physiology.
Yet somehow Watto was aware of the attempt.... Makes ya think, doesn't it? This pen on my desk keeps rancors away. Don't see any rancors, do you?
Just now, ThreeAM said:
@themensch beat me to it. One could easily interpret (and I do) this is the equivalent of a gambler winning a hand and then saying "see kid, I never loose". Its not an Objective truth, its Watto's subjective truth that he is projecting as Objective.
I disagree. As I told @themensch, Why would he lie when the truth is more effective. There is a reason why someone would be completely immune to Mind Tricks, even multiple back-to-back attempts. Just being "Strong willed" isn't enough, because even a strong will can be broken through with enough skill and effort with the power, as evidenced by even Cad Bane being eventually worn down by the power. Toydarians are canonically immune to the Influence power.
Just now, themensch said:Yet somehow Watto was aware of the attempt.... Makes ya think, doesn't it? This pen on my desk keeps rancors away. Don't see any rancors, do you?
Yes, he was aware of the attempt. He specifically called Qui Gon out on that with his opening remark, "What are you, some kind of Jedi waving your hand around like that?"
2 hours ago, SavageBob said:I seem to remember an Order 66 podcast where one of the writers of Enter the Unknown was on. Sorry, can't remember who or when. But he said that the intent with the Toydarians in that book was to gesture at possible Force-resistance without mandating it. Their stance then was that it should be left up to the GM how to handle it. This current book is therefore in error, a shift in ruling, or intended for NPCs in that adventure only IMHO.
I seem to remember that Sam Steward said about Hutts (and maybe also Toydarians) in that podcast (earlier episode) about same thing. They didn't put in a blanket immunity, but gave those species higher will power to reflect their "immunity".
So the wookieepedia mentions is that toydarians are resistant, not immune. http://showcase.starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Toydarian
3 hours ago, Maelora said:It's a retcon for the FFG game, which didn't mention any such resistance, beyond a high starting Willpower and that several NPCs like the Hutt Crime Boss Nemesis possess ranks in Nobody's Fool.
He actually has Will 5 and 3 ranks of Nobody's Fool, making him a tough proposition for most Influence attempts.
We don't need 'immunities' when the rules themselves can accurately reflect what is going on.
Maybe you didn't roll your knowledge xenology high enough
3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:I disagree. As I told @themensch, Why would he lie when the truth is more effective. There is a reason why someone would be completely immune to Mind Tricks, even multiple back-to-back attempts. Just being "Strong willed" isn't enough, because even a strong will can be broken through with enough skill and effort with the power, as evidenced by even Cad Bane being eventually worn down by the power. Toydarians are canonically immune to the Influence power.
True, Cad Bane was worn down, but it took the work of several Jedi, including masters, to manage it.
http://showcase.starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick
7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Yes, he was aware of the attempt. He specifically called Qui Gon out on that with his opening remark, "What are you, some kind of Jedi waving your hand around like that?"
I'm 100% happy with you interpreting canon however you see fit for your game; but I'm also 100% unconvinced, per canon, that it is true. What I'm reading suggests a less black & white answer.