I've been talking with some folks at the FLGS about starting HotAC up, and some have asked about expanding on the player ship options - particularly with respect to Scum ships (many of the Scum frames are favorite models for some of the group). I would love to hear what other people think about adding some of these ships as options for the players - particularly with respect to balance and personal experience flying them.

Looking over the various ships, The Khiraxz seems like a pretty obvious X-Wing analogue, shuffling the dial a bit and trading the torpedo and astromech for missile and illicit. That seems like a pretty straightforward 'safe' option to open up.

One question that I would have about it is how to treat the Vaksai title. Should the upgrade cost reduction be a factor? The simple -1 point for each upgrade is fine for standard competitive play, but it doesn't really feel flavorful (or correct) that it works the same way with multiple 'pilot skill' abilities, or EPT pickups.

Additionally, adding on 2 more mod slots pretty lackluster. It opens up the option to have a couple of mod slot pieces early, but as the XP racks up, it seems like many of the slots would just default to shield upgrades, and that doesn't seem very fun, nor very interesting... there's just not much of a 'building up to a cool thing' factor in piling on extra shields like there is with engine upgrade + autothrusters + stealth device (or similar other 'combo' of upgrades).

Is there any merit in having the title give the player a choice of either 2 mod slots (if they just want the vanilla option) or trade those two slots for slot of a different type? Off the top of my head, a (salvaged) astromech slot might be nifty. Or maybe a second illicit, since the title is supposed to represent more custom/strange modifications. System and tech upgrades both feel suitably specialized/weird to match the feeling that the title is about, but I worry about system in particular being maybe too good, and tech maybe making the ship feel too shiny and high-tech rather than lovingly hacked together in proper scum fashion.

Has anyone tried running a Protectorate Starfighter ? This one also seems to have a fairly similar analogue in the A-Wing with 4 total HP, but a bit more risky with 4 hull rather than 2 shields and 2 hull, and having a single ordnance slot. The extra attack die is obviously a big boost, but maybe with the riskier defensive stats this is maybe a welcome change as I hear that the A-Wing is "hard mode" for the campaign?

Obviously we don't have enough info about the M12 Kimogila yet, but assuming the dial is reasonable, it seems like it could be another B-Wing(ish) analogue, which also seems like a fairly safe option. The G-1A similarly seems like a pretty safe option for people.

I have heard mixed reports on the ARC-170 . It seems very similar to the startlingly large swathe of "Pretty much a B-Wing" ships (3 attack / 1 agility / 8-9hp) ships, but the combo of crew and astromech certainly can be very potent.

I have tried the Protectorate Starfighter, but as much as I like it in 100/6, I didn't manage to get it work here. Maybe it was because I was flying out solo.

Are your aware that there are statcards for about all the ships available? I don't have a link, but I think I found them on reddit

We just got ARC-170's in our HoTAC campaign and so far after two missions with them I like my ARC-170, but the missions get tougher as you progress so I'll wait and see what happens there. I heard they were going to do a Sucm HoTAC campaign but I haven't seen anything for it yet.

Protectorate sorta works... I have a guy in a HotAC we are just wrapping up that flew one. Was rough at lower PS but got by.

Kirhaxz I'd say gets the -1 but not the extra slots. See how it goes. G1A is a safe chassis I imagine.

The one I'd be worried about maybe breaking the game is the viper. It amounts to a defender, with a system slot.

We have two ARCs in my HotAC play group and they seem to be doing well. They are a bit tankier than the B-Wing in our group and the secondary arc helps, but the B-Wing is still bringing more firepower.

32 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Protectorate sorta works... I have a guy in a HotAC we are just wrapping up that flew one. Was rough at lower PS but got by.

Kirhaxz I'd say gets the -1 but not the extra slots. See how it goes. G1A is a safe chassis I imagine.

The one I'd be worried about maybe breaking the game is the viper. It amounts to a defender, with a system slot.

I let the protectorate and the Mk2 Starviper both fly in my game, but we had some horrid luck the first few missions.

For Khirazx, I went the other way, with extra slots but no discount. I's strong early, but I havnt gotten far enough to run into "running out of things to put into slots" problems.

There us a FaceBook group that might give you better answers.

I think if you start off with ARC than it will quickly become too powerful. It has too many good things to add onto it.

I would think the Kihraxz would be good to add, but wouldn't allow the V title. I think it makes it too powerful. I especially wouldn't let you reduce costs. I don't like allowing add ons as you already get them in HotAC.

Obviously, I'm much more conservative about the game. Nothing should really outshine the T-65 in my opinion.

9 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Nothing should really outshine the T-65 in my opinion.

Dude, Y-Wings outshine the T-65 in HotAC

we have run the whole way through HotAC with all ships available - the way we do starting ships is this; you have 26pts to spend, you may not pick a large base ship, whatever faction you pick becomes your faction for the campaign, you may only pick generics, you may not pick a ship with a pilot skill higher than 2, everyone starts at PS2 regardless of what skill level generic they bought.

didn't seem to cause out group too many issues, and we ran alot of the ships most people call out as "broken" (Arc170, TIE phantom, protectorate) later in the campaign we are ben allowed large bases as upgrades, costing double (so 10) and counting as two players for calculating AI (we hit 10 players for that campaign, yes we scaled up the AI numbers and table size)

all in all I've found HotAC and its cousin Battle Star Pallas to be very robust campaign systems that scale well and have handled alot of custom extras we've bolted on (as an example, we allow a second title to be bought as a mod at triple cost (minimum 3), but it has to be from your faction and base size)

as heychadwick said above, the Facebook group is a really good community for HotAC, and some of us put playthroughs of our games on there to give people ideas.

most important thing to remember with HotAC though - its your game, play ot the way you find most fun!

You could have Vaksai come in over time as you rank up. Say, additional mod slots at PS 3 and 5, and the point reduction at PS7.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

You could have Vaksai come in over time as you rank up. Say, additional mod slots at PS 3 and 5, and the point reduction at PS7.

i actually like that idea, at the moment we just run the Vaksai as printed

18 hours ago, heychadwick said:

There us a FaceBook group that might give you better answers.

I think if you start off with ARC than it will quickly become too powerful. It has too many good things to add onto it.

Obviously, I'm much more conservative about the game.

No Facebook groups for me. Never had an account, never will.

I am curious about the ARC being potentially too powerful. It is the favorite ship of one of our players, so if there's a way to get it into the list without being OP, I want to try to find a way. Is there a specific combination of things that it can do that leads you to feel that way? On the surface, it seems like it really is very similar to the B-Wing, just with an astromech instead of a system, but I haven't seen how crazy things can really get to feel like I have a good grasp of what ways things can fall apart with that minor difference.

Maybe there's a simple fix that would make the ship feel like it isn't too much? Off the top of my head, maybe (in what is essentially the same way as the B-Wing) the title would eat up the first mod slot and/or cost some points to upgrade to?

Nothing wrong with being a bit conservative with game balance and theme. I'm just trying to find a way to make the biggest number of potential players as happy as possible, so if I can find a way to get a few more ship choices into the game without making it too easy and without breaking theme, I'm all for it.

18 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

You could have Vaksai come in over time as you rank up. Say, additional mod slots at PS 3 and 5, and the point reduction at PS7.

I really like the idea of having the Vaksai title be something that builds up over time. Having an extra slot or two open up later as the pilot has time to tinker and acquire needed parts for the upgrade makes a lot of sense with the theme. The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of even bothering with cost reduction - it just doesn't seem to fit with the feel where cost isn't about balancing things as much as it's about representing progress.

I also still kind of like the idea of trying to find some way to represent that the Khiraxz is supposed to be so easy to customize and configure to various needs. Maybe instead of adding slots, we could make 1 or 2 of the mod slots you level up to be a 'flex' slot, where you can change out the upgrade/upgrade type between missions?

18 hours ago, Surak said:

... the way we do starting ships is this; you have 26pts to spend, you may not pick a large base ship, whatever faction you pick becomes your faction for the campaign, you may only pick generics, you may not pick a ship with a pilot skill higher than 2, everyone starts at PS2 regardless of what skill level generic they bought.

That's pretty much what we were starting to aim towards in our discussion. We'd decided on 25 points, small base, Rebel or Scum, and use the closest to a PS2 generic as you can find, then add or subtract points if needed to get it to be where a PS2 pilot on that ship would fall (PS1 A-wing is 17 points, PS3 is 19, so we would price the PS2 A-Wing at 18). Thematically, we want to keep away from imperial ships unless opened up by a special circumstance.

For now, I am leaning towards leaving the E-Wing, T-70, Starviper, K-Wing, and Scurrg out of the pool (regardless of cost) for both balance and theme (timeline) reasons.

18 hours ago, Surak said:

most important thing to remember with HotAC though - its your game, play it the way you find most fun!

The guiding principle by which all games should be played!

10 minutes ago, Aaron Foss said:

For now, I am leaning towards leaving the E-Wing, T-70, Starviper, K-Wing, and Scurrg out of the pool (regardless of cost) for both balance and theme (timeline) reasons.

11 minutes ago, Aaron Foss said:

am curious about the ARC being potentially too powerful

ok, so here is where my group differs from the majority of HotAC groups (or at least the ones I'm aware of).

we have never banned a ship. Ever. We've had lancers, Phantoms, IG2000's, Arc170's, and protectorates all running round the board, and often at the same time. The game just sucked it up and dealt with it, we have never got a point where a mission was easy, and we've had a good few close calls and defeats along the way.

now back to the ships - whilst we allowed all the crazy stuff, we found the 26pt starting level (which is the default in HotAC once you reverse engineer the X-wing and Y-wing) was enough to get people started, and then allowed the rest of the ships as PS4 upgrade options. About the only thing i would suggest is tracking down Battle Star Pallas, as its got player cards for all of the rebel ships, as well as missions to unlock the more powerful ones if that's more to your liking

22 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

Dude, Y-Wings outshine the T-65 in HotAC

Totally disagree here. T-65's are very middle if the road ships, but that means they can be customized like crazy to fit your needs. Faster than Y-wings and B-wings. Hit harder and more resilient than A-wings. There is a lot you can do, including making them a buff/debuff ship.

Example: J-bot took Dutch and Tarn's ability with M9-G8. Whenever he is shot at, he can dish out a new TL to a friend in R1-2. Get XP if they hit with it. Modify dice vs. whomever attacks him. Easy to shoot ordnance.

My T-65 is hyper mobile and hits hard:

-Predator, Push The Limit, and Sabine's ability (and Squad Leader).

-Integrated Astromech, Extra Munitions, Guidance Chip, and Shield Upgrade (sometimes drop GC for 2nd Shield Upgrade).

- R2-D2 and two Ion or Proton Torpedoes.

Super mobile and can avoid firing arcs. I can draw enemy towards me and get out of there. I usually don't need to TL due to Predator (unless missile), which means I can give away free action. Very resilient and able to regen shields. Hits very hard with main guns or Torpedoes. Sometimes face off vs four Tie Fighters on my own and Ionize them to delay whole wave of enemy.

To me, the T-65 is a very powerful ship in the game. The 2 green dice have seen them get lucky enough to live where I've seen a full B-wing downed by 4 Tie Fighters in one round. Don't let the game meta limit your perspective.

3 hours ago, Aaron Foss said:

No Facebook groups for me. Never had an account, never will.

I am curious about the ARC being potentially too powerful. It is the favorite ship of one of our players, so if there's a way to get it into the list without being OP, I want to try to find a way. Is there a specific combination of things that it can do that leads you to feel that way? On the surface, it seems like it really is very similar to the B-Wing, just with an astromech instead of a system, but I haven't seen how crazy things can really get to feel like I have a good grasp of what ways things can fall apart with that minor difference.

Maybe there's a simple fix that would make the ship feel like it isn't too much? Off the top of my head, maybe (in what is essentially the same way as the B-Wing) the title would eat up the first mod slot and/or cost some points to upgrade to?

Nothing wrong with being a bit conservative with game balance and theme. I'm just trying to find a way to make the biggest number of potential players as happy as possible, so if I can find a way to get a few more ship choices into the game without making it too easy and without breaking theme, I'm all for it.

The ARC is more than just a B-wing variant. First off is an extra shield. Next, it's got an amazing dial, especially when fielded with R2-D2. So many greens where it outshines both B's and D's. Next, it has the rear firing arc that is very good. The title gives it dice modification, too. Lastly, what you can do to make a T-65 good doesn't usually translate to the B-wing too much (astromech and Vectored Thrusters), but those are good on ARC, so the issue of changing isn't even an issue. If you take a PS 7 ARC that is fully loaded and compare it to a fully loaded T-65, there is no comparison.

One idea I had was to try to limit it's growth potential. It's end game is what makes it OP, so if you can limit that, then you are doing well. I think maybe limit it's Modification slots. Have the Alliance Overhaul be a modification and take up that slot. It can help slow down the OP of the ship a bit so that it doesn't just outclass all the other ships. It's also thematic as the Overhaul is basically a modification. That....and maybe ban it from having R2-D2 as that is just crazy good.

As for the Vaksai title, it's meant to bring the Kirhaxz up to speed for tournament play, but HotAC isn't tournament level. I don't feel it needs the extra bits to make it a worthwhile ship. Still...removing point costs and delaying upgrades makes it more palatable. Maybe 1 upgrade per PS for the first two odd PS levels? So, upgrade at start...and then one at PS 3,4, 5, 6, and 8.

Good luck! Also, you can always great a FB profile for gaming and only join the gaming groups you want. Use a fake name, etc. Just don't do the normal FB stuff. Lots of good FB groups out there, but I understand the FB dislike.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

One idea I had was to try to limit it's growth potential.

its really interesting to hear how other people play, as our group went completely the opposite route with HotAC to this. We wanted to open up more customisation options for all ships rather than restricting them.

to this end we put the following extra rule in that really forces some hard choices.

"Any ship may choose to equip a second title card in ONE of its modification slots. This title must be from the same faction as your ship, your ship must also share the same base-size as the ship whose title you are adding. This additional title costs 3 time the printed cost, with a minimum cost of 3exp. If your ship does not have a title card available, then you may use your title slot instead of a modification slot, all other rules above apply"

it really adds diversity to a squadron, and makes you think about where you want to invest the points and mod slot in what is essentially a custom job for your ship. In fact, even if you don't buy in to our crazy all-in style of HotAC, i recommend this option as a way of making your ships feel a little more unique.

here are some fun examples;

Sabine's masterpiece (3pts as a mod), chuck it on a y-wing to finally have that crew slot on the venerable bomber.

Havoc (3pts as a mod), put this on a HWK for a very different flying experience

Black One (again 3pts), on an A-wing this is great fun

A-wing test pilot (3pts) let's you essentially swap a mod slot to an ept/ability slot for 3exp

as i said, think of them as custom overhauls and they suddenly become an interesting addition to the game

21 minutes ago, Surak said:

its really interesting to hear how other people play, as our group went completely the opposite route with HotAC to this. We wanted to open up more customisation options for all ships rather than restricting them.

It is interesting. To each their own. Personally, I like the flavor of original trilogy with iconic ships. I also feel it's good to have the T-65 be a good power level for the game. Power creep can stay out of HotAC. I played back in Wave 1 and I miss X's and Y's fighting Tie Fighters. It's kind of Classic X-wing for me.

14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

To each their own.

definitely agree with this ^

14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Personally, I like the flavor of original trilogy with iconic ships. I also feel it's good to have the T-65 be a good power level for the game. Power creep can stay out of HotAC. I played back in Wave 1 and I miss X's and Y's fighting Tie Fighters. It's kind of Classic X-wing for me.

ah wave 1, the heady days of knowing exactly what would be on the table because there were a limited number of options - all joking aside I do wish the humble X-wing was a little more relevant (along with the TIE fighter, and pretty much all of waves 1-4)

as for power creep, i really don't think X-wing is in that bad a place as am a former 40k player (codex creep) and I also play Star Trek Attack Wing which is suffering from 32+ waves worth of releases at this point - although the new card packs look like they are going to address alot of that games issues.

in any case, I'm just glad that HotAC is a well built and flexible enough campaign system that there can be so many different approaches to it that all work.

To me, waves 1-2 were exciting because you DIDN'T know what would be on the table. There wasn't a meta yet and everything was an option. Only a few ships, but few bad options.

When you take HotAC as it is, the T-65 is a great ship. I like a game where people want to fly the title ship of the whole game. When you add in other ships, it starts to get to the point that the T-65 can't compete. Sure, it's not 40k power creep, but who would take a T-65 when they can take all the other ships? Vanilla HotAC is equal in all parts, but add more and some ships disappear.

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

1. Faster than Y-wings ...

2. My T-65 is hyper mobile and hits hard:

-Predator, Push The Limit, and Sabine's ability (and Squad Leader).

...

Super mobile and can avoid firing arcs. ... Hits very hard with main guns or Torpedoes.

...

3. To me, the T-65 is a very powerful ship in the game. The 2 green dice have seen them get lucky enough to live where I've seen a full B-wing downed by 4 Tie Fighters in one round. Don't let the game meta limit your perspective.

1. isn't really true; with the exception of the 3 turns and 4 forward being red for Y-Wings, the dial is the same. I don't feel that that's much of a handicap speedwise, especially given the build in #2.

2. This is not unique to X-Wings, a Y-Wing can do the same thing (often putting the same if not more damage through vs a tokened target), with the added benefit of never having to worry about arc since it's got a TLT, so actually probably even better at avoiding arcs than the X-Wing (although R2 Astromech is advisable, so you'll miss the regen - but again, the X-Wing greens aren't exactly stellar either so...). Also, Y-Wings are better than X-Wings at carrying torpedoes, and can also equip bombs (which work great with Sabine's ability and affect TIE formations terribly). The versatility of the Y-Wing is just so much higher.

3. Getting caught by a formation is really quite avoidable with the build described in #2, but if you want anecdotes, I've seen the 2 green dice blank out on 3 consecutive attacks, requiring an integrated astromech purge in order to stay alive with 1 hull, and therefore forcing my X-Wing to jump to hyperspace or face imminent destruction. Sure, the Y-Wing doesn't have IA, but it's sitting on 8 native HP plus however many shield upgrades.

In my experience Y-Wings are consistently the stars of the campaign, usually able to put out the same if not more damage with significantly greater ease than X-Wings (Predator TLTs are stupidly good in HotAC). The number of rounds where they'll be able to have a valid target and be able to hit it means they rack up XP easier than an X-Wing, which means they get to the power combos quite quickly.

I kind of would like to see Scum become another villain much like how it is done in Imperial Assault. Change the algorithm a little so that Scum prioritize on defense and survival than Imperials which prioritize zone control and offense. Also I think all ships should have 2 set of AI movement tiles, one for normal and one for stressed. Scum should be on TL ship while Imperials keep to closest enemy ship.

In addition I think having a Wingman mechanic as a little AI friend that can grow stronger with you. It would make those Z-95s useful as the cheapest and easiest ally to come across.

13 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

1....

2....

3....

1) Those white speed 4's and white 3 turns are exactly what I'm talking about. They do make a difference.

2) X-wings can dish out more damage every round. TLT's can't shoot at R1 and can only do 2 hits at best. Torpedoes are good, but limited. Y-wings get double what an X-wing can. To me, the X-wing can dish out more damage overall. Yes, TLT is 360, but the range restriction hurts. Sometimes you need to get at R1 and roll 4 dice.

3) Yeah, that bit is circumstantial.

Look, I like Y-wings a lot and have used them to great affect. They are a different beast than T-65's, though. I wouldn't say better. Just different. I disagree that everything is better than the X-wing.

25 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I disagree that everything is better than the X-wing.

Well, so do I - HWK is the ship I really can't justify taking to the HotAC tables.

Don't get me wrong here - I'm not maligning the X-Wing: I flew mine to solid effect. I went with a core of R3-A2 + Eaden Vrill + Hobbie (pre-PS7) + Keyan (PS7+) and when things went according to plan it was awesome.

But when things didn't go according to plan, boost/BR isn't always enough to recover arc (admittedly, I was not double action, but having flown double action ships in many games, I'll still say it with confidence) so I'd be sitting on my thumbs while the combat phase passed me by, and yet the Y-Wings always seemed to have something to do because of that turret - the right choice of a boost or a BR will almost always be able to get you out of Range 1, since arc doesn't matter. And getting blocked usually doesn't matter either, because it's Sabine - the Adv.Sens of EPTs. As long as something somewhere is open, you got it. (Of course as long as I had a shot I had a focus, so that was nice)

All this to say I still hate TLTs.

Yeah, but you don't have to have a shot every turn to be effective. Its not like if you don't have turret or rear arc that you aren't pulling your weight.

I think we're going to go with making the Alliance Overhaul title eat up a modification slot and cost some points. Probably 5-10ish. That way if someone wants to fly it as a more support-based ship, it doesn't cost them extra, but they can pump some points into it to get the guns powered up if they want.

For the Vaksai , we're currently planning to have it replace the PS4 and PS8 (or just the PS6, pending further balance/fun discussion) earned upgrade modification slots with special "custom job" slots. With a "custom job" slot, the player can choose to either make the slot a scum astromech or illicit slot (can only choose each option once - no double astros!) or keep it as a modification upgrade but one that is flexible, allowing the equipped upgrade to be swapped in and out after the mission briefing to represent how easy the Khiraxz is to tinker with.

Some more balance questions that have cropped up in conversation:

Twin Laser Turret and Predator - are they both too good? For both of these, it seems like they easily outclass every other possible option, and that raises alarm bells in my head that something is probably wrong.

Is the HWK-290 too weak? It has good upgrade slots, but that dial is so awful for a ship that is supposed to be nimble, and the 1 red die is a joke.

Lastly, are there any house rules / tweaks you have had fun with in your games? We are definitely doing shared/pooled XP, and clearly we are trying to open up the ship options a bit, but I'm wondering what other little tweaks are out there that folks have enjoyed.