In my experience, the biggest thing that holds TIE/Ds back is high PS burst offense. With control and high damage over time, they can usually win the an extended slugfest against higher PS ships, while leveraging the Barrel Roll and PS kills to get it done against low PS beef.

It's the high PS heavy damage lists that have traditionally caused the most problems, because they cut right through AGI 3 and they take away most counterplay from the Defender. That has been intermittently popular lately, and is a traditional feature of Dengar.

wrt to the cannon discussion, a big selling point of Flechette is if Mindlink ever comes back in a big way, it's a pretty solid way to stress a whole list.

18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

In my experience, the biggest thing that holds TIE/Ds back is high PS burst offense. With control and high damage over time, they can usually win the an extended slugfest against higher PS ships, while leveraging the Barrel Roll and PS kills to get it done against low PS beef.

It's the high PS heavy damage lists that have traditionally caused the most problems, because they cut right through AGI 3 and they take away most counterplay from the Defender. That has been intermittently popular lately, and is a traditional feature of Dengar.

Agree with you there @Biophysical, but I think TIE/D's are also just slightly too expensive as well. You can fit three in a list - as long as you're happy running three Deltas, that is. Once you start adding the title, a cannon and elite talents to Glaives or named pilots, they become very expensive, very quickly.

Someone suggested that if the TIE/x7 and TIE/D costs had been reversed, they might be a bit more closely balanced. I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but I do feel like it's pretty difficult to fit more than one TIE/D into a list effectively.

5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Someone suggested that if the TIE/x7 and TIE/D costs had been reversed, they might be a bit more closely balanced. I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but I do feel like it's pretty difficult to fit more than one TIE/D into a list effectively.

Someone is absolutely right. I suspect if the costs had been reversed we'd a: see more of both and b: not have seen the /x7 nerf.

Slightly offtopic, but all this talk about control lists gave me an idea:

I want an upgrade of any kind that allows an enemy ship to only fire from the primary arc for one turn. Could be a cannon, or anything really, depending on balancing.

That would be a holy trifecta - ion, stress, and locked to primary arc!

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Slightly offtopic, but all this talk about control lists gave me an idea:

I want an upgrade of any kind that allows an enemy ship to only fire from the primary arc for one turn. Could be a cannon, or anything really, depending on balancing.

That would be a holy trifecta - ion, stress, and locked to primary arc!

That sir(or Madame), is a great idea.

6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Agree with you there @Biophysical, but I think TIE/D's are also just slightly too expensive as well. You can fit three in a list - as long as you're happy running three Deltas, that is. Once you start adding the title, a cannon and elite talents to Glaives or named pilots, they become very expensive, very quickly.

Someone suggested that if the TIE/x7 and TIE/D costs had been reversed, they might be a bit more closely balanced. I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but I do feel like it's pretty difficult to fit more than one TIE/D into a list effectively.

Which is precisely why I didn't fly all three ships as Defenders.

I get it - flying symmetrical squads is fun - but no-one ever asked Rebels to ignore the Stresshog because you only wanted one Y-wing in the squad, you know?

Two Defenders seems to be my limit, honestly - you can then fit in another ship of your choice much more easily than cramming in that third TIE/D, and honestly, it seems to me that having the variety in the dial is dramatically advantageous. Defender dials are powerful, but they're one trick ponies. Having something able to do something different came in handy again and again, even if it wasn't specifically OL. (I'd consider Sabaac an interesting option were I not running Vessery too, for instance.)

Thankfully, two Defenders means you can pack both a stress weapon and an Ion... and that's the trick to Defender Control, at least as far as I could tell.

Is VI worthwhile? Nym + Miranda lists have a bid (right?), you don't. So you're always going to be moving before both Miranda and Nym.

It does provide insurance against the relatively squishy /D being PS-killed by Miranda's TLT, which matters. Also useful against Dash, of course.

I...don't really think it would be a good idea, but I wonder if Cool Hand might be a better 1 point EPT against the bomber lists. Being able, once, to get a focus with an unexpected red maneuver might be enough to tip the scales. Maybe. I dunno.

anti-TLT pskilling insurance (and anti-Dash utility) probably is the right call. I just don't like it very much.

CTRL-ALT-DE...fenders should probably be a thing.

15 hours ago, Astech said:

The best possible Imperial answer to Nym is an Ion Cannon Turret Aggressor. It also happens to shut down Miranda. Fly the Aggressor with two aces (I'm thinking Kylo and Whisper when they come out) and go to town with your arc-dodginess.

If you can make that fit, you’re my hero sir!

9 hours ago, Biophysical said:

In my experience, the biggest thing that holds TIE/Ds back is high PS burst offense. With control and high damage over time, they can usually win the an extended slugfest against higher PS ships, while leveraging the Barrel Roll and PS kills to get it done against low PS beef.

It's the high PS heavy damage lists that have traditionally caused the most problems, because they cut right through AGI 3 and they take away most counterplay from the Defender. That has been intermittently popular lately, and is a traditional feature of Dengar.

Dengar didn't actually trouble me too much - stress really annoys him, and ion scares him like crazy - but I can agree that high-PS burst damage is tough to deal with. Not as bad as untouchable aces, but certainly something to consider when picking your potential third ship!

1 hour ago, Hawkstrike said:

CTRL-ALT-DE...fenders should probably be a thing.

Oh my god I wish I could edit the title, because they use alternate cannons
Well done, sir.

4 hours ago, mxlm said:

Is VI worthwhile? Nym + Miranda lists have a bid (right?), you don't. So you're always going to be moving before both Miranda and Nym.

It does provide insurance against the relatively squishy /D being PS-killed by Miranda's TLT, which matters. Also useful against Dash, of course.

I...don't really think it would be a good idea, but I wonder if Cool Hand might be a better 1 point EPT against the bomber lists. Being able, once, to get a focus with an unexpected red maneuver might be enough to tip the scales. Maybe. I dunno.

anti-TLT pskilling insurance (and anti-Dash utility) probably is the right call. I just don't like it very much.

Other options on Vessery included Crackshot, but I did like the simultaneous firing, and I appreciated the ability to move OL and Vessery simultaneously - given they go chasing the same opponent a lot, I found being able to pick activation order got me actions when the alternative wouldn't.

It also helped immensely against Dash, who does actually come up locally. It nessisarily wasn't the best option, but it did prove helpful enough often enough that I appreciated the convenience. Certainly a point you should feel welcome to play with, though.

I've shifted to this lately as my downtime, fun list:

32 Omnicron w/ IonC, ColisionD, Palp. (I've also tried tractor + Ion Projector)
34 Delta w/ IonC, Mk2, TIE/D.
34 Delta w/ IonC, Mk2, TIE/D.

With 3x Delta's, I was finding one would get focused down really fast (especially if my opponent had ordnance). Instead of the third Delta, I have a Palp-shuttle to anchor the list. It has the advantage of giving my opponent an obvious first target, that will tank a solid amount of damage (usually more than a delta). Also If my opponent decides to target a Delta, Palp makes their defence much more reliable.

Also even a shuttle can keep arc on an ion'd ship (mostly).

Bit off topic, but you got any more info on that winning Whisper list and/or the hero of the Empire who flew it??

6 hours ago, S41X said:

Bit off topic, but you got any more info on that winning Whisper list and/or the hero of the Empire who flew it??

Whisper w/ Kallus, Pure Sabaac, and a Palpmobile: Two extremely fast-moving 4-die attackers, with die mods you need to kill first. Should, in theory, die like a punk against Miranda or Nym and so, in theory, not actually make the cut, but apparently not... I have no idea how they manage it, but it certainly left me in an awkward position; Defenders can't chase down a wounded Sabaac to save themselves, can't hit Whisper without killing Palp first, and that's a lot of firepower on the board engaging very quickly when you're really wanting the shuttle dead.

My list had a weakness to Aces; welp, that there is an Aces build!

Surely the real answer to Nym (and by extension Miranda) is Kylo Ren? Dishing out PS0 or straight up denying shots for a turn? After all, the anger and hate we feel at the state of the game should be channeled right back into it!

3 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Surely the real answer to Nym (and by extension Miranda) is Kylo Ren? Dishing out PS0 or straight up denying shots for a turn? After all, the anger and hate we feel at the state of the game should be channeled right back into it!

Honestly, I've run Denym against Kylo a number of times and never had a problem with it. By the time that your first target is actually hitting PS0, there have already been 2 rounds of combat most games - round 1 you don't get to kylo because you're out of range. Round 2, you get to kylo, but I shoot you at PS10. It's only at round 3 that one of my two ships gets dropped to 0, and the other is still up with you.

It helps that I run VI on Dengar though.

35 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It helps that I run VI on Dengar though.

What else do you have on him? Usually he's sinking a lot more points with Expertise.

23 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

What else do you have on him? Usually he's sinking a lot more points with Expertise.

I replace Expertise with VI and Glitterstim, but otherwise run him as I normally would with Expertise. K4, Unhinged, Plasma, Extra, Chips, alongside a 43 point TLT AC Nym.

Glittertim is usually enough for the one turn where you desperately want lots of mods, and otherwise, a single focus token is usually fine.

I keep meaning to try VI/RecSpec/R4 Agromech again - it gets better mods once you get the chain started, and it can potentially fire both torps in a round, but it's a lot more action dependent and your first attack has to go without one or more of the available mods to start the chain of double modded shots off.

I really want to like it, but K4/Unhinged is probably Just Better.

On 10/24/2017 at 8:31 AM, MalusCalibur said:

The problem with TIE/D, to my mind, is twofold - it results in a painfully expensive ship that lacks defences necessary to protect that investment. Like pre-Veterans Defenders, it will suffer from taking 'the odd hit', particularly early in the game, and unless it's Vessery it will also struggle to modify shots effectively, leading to wasted turns which a 40+ pt ship cannot afford. Having a low PS generally will hurt as well (the best being Rex at native 8, but he's so very pricey) meaning higher PS ships (Miranda against Vessery, Ryad or generics, Nym against all of them) will have a large opportunity to dodge your arc altogether.
I want the TIE/D to be as effective as x/7, but...it just isn't. Too many times your insanely expensive Defender will lose valuable shots and be chipped away before it contributes enough to justify itself.

Expertise mitigates the defense bit. Use your Focus for defense while Vessery has both TL and Focus for offense on 2 shots.

Just now, heychadwick said:

Expertise mitigates the defense bit. Use your Focus for defense while Vessery has both TL and Focus for offense on 2 shots.

It mitigates the defense issue, but at the distinct expense of the cost one...

16 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

If you can make that fit, you’re my hero sir!

I agree that a Tie Aggressor with ICT is good. In fact, I think Lt. Kestal works even against the occasional ace and/or Whisper.

-Col. Vessery w/ Expertise, Flechette Cannon, /D, and MK2 engines

-Lt. Kestal w/ Ion Cannon Turret, Unguided Rockets, VI, and LET

-Omega Leader w/ Juke and Comm Relay.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It mitigates the defense issue, but at the distinct expense of the cost one...

You are correct on that, but I think the equal threat type list can work. Also, the ability to ionized someone, get in close, and out if their arc the next turn is very useful in staying alive, too. It goes beyond what one ship does and works as a list. Not a glass cannon. If you can get someone where you want them, it gets easier.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I agree that a Tie Aggressor with ICT is good. In fact, I think Lt. Kestal works even against the occasional ace and/or Whisper.

This is an interesting build, but sadly Aces just don't exist when you're running competitively; FFG designed him during an Ace meta but released him in a bomb/tanky meta.

-Col. Vessery w/ Expertise, Flechette Cannon, /D, and MK2 engines

Love this Col. Vessery Build; I'm a Flechette Cannon lover to be sure.

-Lt. Kestal w/ Ion Cannon Turret, Unguided Rockets, VI, and LET

-Omega Leader w/ Juke and Comm Relay.

This.